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Post #1 Sat, Jun 23, 9:38 PM |
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arclight
Supercar Messi - 2432
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(I posted these times in the best road car in the world link crap)Two of the best are Jacky Ichxs' Rothmans porsche 962 (street legal)completely destroyed the toyota time and that was back when the track was longer and Jackie Oliver's Porsche 917LH also destroyed the Toyotas time on a longer track.There are also 5 other with much better times.I'm not trying to start shite but get the facts straight,the Toyata GT1 is a great car but not the best.
Edited by arclight - Sat, Jun 23, 9:39 PM
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Post #2 Mon, Jun 25, 9:17 AM |
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THEBEAST101
Senior Member - 424
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it certainly isn't the best road car out there no doubt but undermining the performance of the GT1 isn't the way to go neither. Im not positiveley sure but i think the 962 had alot more hp than the GT1(please confirm) and only 917 i know of is the longtail so i can't argue with that. And when were those times set? Because in the forum, it say that they set a new lap record of 3.35.02. Was ot on the new shorter track?
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Post #3 Tue, Jun 26, 6:47 PM |
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arclight
Supercar Messi - 2432
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Quote from THEBEAST101
it certainly isn't the best road car out there no doubt but undermining the performance of the GT1 isn't the way to go neither. Im not positiveley sure but i think the 962 had alot more hp than the GT1(please confirm) and only 917 i know of is the longtail so i can't argue with that. And when were those times set? Because in the forum, it say that they set a new lap record of 3.35.02. Was ot on the new shorter track?
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Post #4 Wed, Jun 27, 1:56 AM |
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ickyick
New User - 6
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i cant help but notice that youre trying to compare lap times on the no-chicane lemans track to times set on the chicane track...why do you think thats a valid comparison?
the track wasnt longer in 1971, and was only 26m longer in 1985...and i think 2 whopping great chicanes in the middle of the fastest straight on the track are going to make much more difference to a laptime and average speeds than 26m of road that was slightly revised
http://www.etracksonline.co.uk/Europe/France/lemans90-2001.html
http://www.etracksonline.co.uk/Europe/France/lemans79-86.html
http://www.etracksonline.co.uk/Europe/France/lemans68-71.html
Edited by ickyick - Wed, Jun 27, 2:11 AM
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Post #5 Wed, Jun 27, 10:33 AM |
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THEBEAST101
Senior Member - 424
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That is true. After looking at those track layouts, those time seem somewhat invalid. I mean 250mph is FAST and when you put two chicanes in the middle of the long straight. 250 mph turns into 200mph in between chicanes. And they did have a 600hp limit back when the GT1 was in competition and im sure it was geared for speeds of no more than 215 mph.
Think going upto 250 mph no interruptions on a straight VS. 50 mph slower whaile having to slam on the brakes to turn times 2.
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Post #6 Wed, Jun 27, 6:44 PM |
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arclight
Supercar Messi - 2432
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There are faster times plain and simple.I'm not going to rant it's just the info is inaccurate.
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Post #7 Wed, Jun 27, 7:05 PM |
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ickyick
New User - 6
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no its not plain and simple, your comparison is like comparing someone who sprints to someone who has to jump hurdles...its not valid
and if its supposedly innaccurate, please post links to your so much more accurate info
@THEBEAST101: yeah, thats all correct, they were restricted to 600hp, and the 6 fastest speed trap times that year (which were all made by the GT1 and the CLR-GTR) were 349 kmh to 351 kmh (around 217 mph)
Edited by ickyick - Wed, Jun 27, 7:41 PM
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Post #8 Thu, Jun 28, 10:16 AM |
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THEBEAST101
Senior Member - 424
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I didn't know the CLR was that fast... Too bad the CLR was a aerodymanic death trap on wheels.
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Post #9 Fri, Jun 29, 4:14 AM |
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ickyick
New User - 6
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heres the best place to prove you wrong...ill go straight to the lemans website and you can read about all the track changes and records for yourself, under "1923-2005 - Development of the Circuit"
http://www.lemans.org/24heuresdumans/pages/retro_palmares_divers_gb.html
oh, and heres another thing...since when was the Rothmans 962 that Jacky Ickx and Derek Bell drove considered road legal? the only road legal 962s were the Dauer 962 and the Schuppan 962, which are definetly NOT the same as the racing 962C
Edited by ickyick - Fri, Jun 29, 4:15 AM
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Post #10 Fri, Jun 29, 5:05 PM |
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arclight
Supercar Messi - 2432
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Better rimes are better times.You and Englebert will make a great duo.HAhaha on this site.funny stuff.is this you again chum?
Edited by arclight - Fri, Jun 29, 5:06 PM
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Post #11 Fri, Jun 29, 7:21 PM |
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ickyick
New User - 6
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wow, by that comment, i can assume that you didnt even read the information...or perhaps you did, and its too "innaccurate" for you?
of course a car on a shorter track with longer straights is going to post a better time than a car on a longer track laced with chicanes...but any rational person would realise its a plain stupid comparison
ignorance must be bliss...
Edited by ickyick - Sat, Jun 30, 3:13 AM
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Post #12 Mon, Jul 2, 10:55 AM |
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THEBEAST101
Senior Member - 424
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Acually that website does provide more than enough information to make your statement false, and the GT1 road car was ever tested, its just assumed to be like the GT1 racecar because of what little they changed to make it road legal. And still the 962's time was only 5 seconds faster even with the chicances added to the track.
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Post #13 Sat, Jul 7, 4:52 PM |
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arclight
Supercar Messi - 2432
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Quote from THEBEAST101
Acually that website does provide more than enough information to make your statement false, and the GT1 road car was ever tested, its just assumed to be like the GT1 racecar because of what little they changed to make it road legal. And still the 962's time was only 5 seconds faster even with the chicances added to the track.
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Post #14 Sat, Jul 7, 8:01 PM |
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ickyick
New User - 6
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nope, youve misread it completely, go back and read it again properly...or perhaps ill just have to post it here so you cant miss it
CIRCUIT N? 7
Period: 1979 to 1985.
Length: 13.626 km (8.462 miles).
Record distance : 5088.507 km = 212.021 kph (3159.963 miles/131.665 mph), PORSCHE 956 2,649 cc turbocharged K. LUDWIG-P. BARILLA-J. WINTER in 1985.
Lap record: Tests : 3?14?80 = 251.815 kph by H. STUCK, Porsche 962 in 1985. Race: 3?25?1 = 239.169 kph by J. ICKX, Porsche 962 in 1985.
The commissioning of the new ring-road to the South-East of Le Mans, linking the Paris-Rennes autoroute and the main road from Le Mans to Angers and Nantes, forced the A.C.O. to modify Tertre Rouge corner, which went from being a right angle to a tight 50-degree turn. The opportunity was taken to create a new spectator area on the inside of the corner, while the old footbridge was replaced by a tunnel under the track. In November 1978 the Highways Department laid a new surface with more grip than that previously used. At the same time, the interior of the two turns before Indianapolis corner were cleared of trees.
CIRCUIT N? 8
Used in 1986.
Length: 13.528 km (8.401 miles).
Record distance : 4972.731 km = 207.197 kph (3088.066 miles/128.669 mph), PORSCHE 962C 2650 cc turbocharged D. BELL - H. STUCK - A. HOLBERT.
Lap record: Tests : 3?15?99 = 243.486 kph (151.205 mph) by J. MASS, Porsche 962 C.
Race: 3?23?3 = 239.551 kph (148.761 mph) by K. LUDWIG, Porsche 956.
The crossroads formed by Route Nationale 138 and local road CD 140 that had created the famous Mulsanne corner had become an accident blackspot since the opening of a new business zone, forcing the authorities to build a roundabout at this point. This destroyed the old corner, which was replaced by a new link, some 230 metres (0.142 miles) in length, that moved the circuit and corner closer to the golf course. It was in 1985 that the circuit and its infrastructure were taken over by joint body set up by the A.C.O. and local communities to administer the maintenance and improvement of the circuit.
CIRCUIT N?9
Period: 1987 to 1989 - Length: 13.535 km (8.410 miles).
Record distance : 5332.79 km = 221.665 kph, JAGUAR XJR 9 7000 cc LAMMERS-DUMFRIES-WALLACE in 1988.
Lap record: Tests : 3?15?04 = 249.826 kph, J.-L. SCHLESSER, Sauber-Mercedes C9 in 1989. Race: 3?21?27 = 242.093 kph, A. FERT?, Jaguar XJR9 in 1989.
At the request of the international motorcycle federation, concerned about rider safety in the French Motorcycle GP, a speed-limiting ?S? curve was introduced into the circuit in the approach to the Dunlop bridge. This reduced speeds under the bridge by 100 kph (62 mph) lowering the speed to 160 kph (100 mph) from 260 kph (162 mph). The new layout was used for the 24 Heures in 1987 and was in the circuit for all races on the Le Mans circuits.
In 1988 the Hunaudieres straight was resurfaced by the Highways Agency using a laser to obtain a perfectly flat surface. The result was a noticeable increase in maximum speeds.
CIRCUIT N? 10
Period: 1990 to 1996 - Length: 13.600 km (8.445 miles).
Record distance : 5100 km = 213,358 km/h (3167.1 miles/131.874 mph), PEUGEOT 905 3499 cc, BRABHAM-HELARY-BOUCHUT in 1993.
Lap record: Tests : 3?21??209 = 243.329 kph (151.145 mph) by Ph. ALLIOT, Peugeot 905 in 1992. Race: 3?27??47 = 235.986 kph by E. IRVINE, Toyota TS 010 in 1993.
At the request of FISA, two chicanes were introduced into the Hunaudieres straight in order to reduce maximum speeds. Despite the extra loads imposed on gearboxes and brakes by the new format, the number of finishers did not decrease significantly. In July 1990, the A.C.O. started work on a total renewal of the pits and infrastructure, resulting in a pits complex that put Le Mans on a level with the best in the world. Although the circuit length was not changed, the width of the start and finish area was increased to 12 metres (40 feet) and separated from the 15 metre-wide pit-lane by a 3 metre-wide section reserved for signalling, a function which now returned from Mulsanne.
CIRCUIT N? 11
Period: 1997 to 2001 - Length: 13.605 km (8.449 miles).
Record distance : 5007.988 km = 208.666 kph (3109.961 miles/129.582 mph), AUDI R8 3600 cc turbocharged of BIELA-KRISTENSEN-PIRRO.
Lap record: Tests: 3?29?930 = 233.306 kph (144.803 mph), M. BRUNDLE, TOYOTA GT ONE in 1999. Race : 3?35?032 = 227.771 kph, U. KATAYAMA, TOYOTA GT ONE in 1999.
The circuit length was extended by 5 metres following modifications to the Dunlop chicane. Considered to be slower than before, this section was improved, mainly by the addition of larger gravel-traps that were of benefit to motorcyclists and drivers who competed on the 4.305 Km (2.67 miles) Bugatti circuit during the rest of the year. During the winter of 2000/2001, the surface at Mulsanne was skimmed. The circuit length remained unchanged.
also, the gt-one road car isnt relevant to arclights claim about lemans lap records
Edited by ickyick - Sun, Jul 8, 1:26 AM
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Post #15 Sun, Jul 29, 5:58 PM |
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arclight
Supercar Messi - 2432
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Quote from ickyick
nope, youve misread it completely, go back and read it again properly...or perhaps ill just have to post it here so you cant miss it
CIRCUIT N? 7
Period: 1979 to 1985.
Length: 13.626 km (8.462 miles).
Record distance : 5088.507 km = 212.021 kph (3159.963 miles/131.665 mph), PORSCHE 956 2,649 cc turbocharged K. LUDWIG-P. BARILLA-J. WINTER in 1985.
Lap record: Tests : 3?14?80 = 251.815 kph by H. STUCK, Porsche 962 in 1985. Race: 3?25?1 = 239.169 kph by J. ICKX, Porsche 962 in 1985.
The commissioning of the new ring-road to the South-East of Le Mans, linking the Paris-Rennes autoroute and the main road from Le Mans to Angers and Nantes, forced the A.C.O. to modify Tertre Rouge corner, which went from being a right angle to a tight 50-degree turn. The opportunity was taken to create a new spectator area on the inside of the corner, while the old footbridge was replaced by a tunnel under the track. In November 1978 the Highways Department laid a new surface with more grip than that previously used. At the same time, the interior of the two turns before Indianapolis corner were cleared of trees.
CIRCUIT N? 8
Used in 1986.
Length: 13.528 km (8.401 miles).
Record distance : 4972.731 km = 207.197 kph (3088.066 miles/128.669 mph), PORSCHE 962C 2650 cc turbocharged D. BELL - H. STUCK - A. HOLBERT.
Lap record: Tests : 3?15?99 = 243.486 kph (151.205 mph) by J. MASS, Porsche 962 C.
Race: 3?23?3 = 239.551 kph (148.761 mph) by K. LUDWIG, Porsche 956.
The crossroads formed by Route Nationale 138 and local road CD 140 that had created the famous Mulsanne corner had become an accident blackspot since the opening of a new business zone, forcing the authorities to build a roundabout at this point. This destroyed the old corner, which was replaced by a new link, some 230 metres (0.142 miles) in length, that moved the circuit and corner closer to the golf course. It was in 1985 that the circuit and its infrastructure were taken over by joint body set up by the A.C.O. and local communities to administer the maintenance and improvement of the circuit.
CIRCUIT N?9
Period: 1987 to 1989 - Length: 13.535 km (8.410 miles).
Record distance : 5332.79 km = 221.665 kph, JAGUAR XJR 9 7000 cc LAMMERS-DUMFRIES-WALLACE in 1988.
Lap record: Tests : 3?15?04 = 249.826 kph, J.-L. SCHLESSER, Sauber-Mercedes C9 in 1989. Race: 3?21?27 = 242.093 kph, A. FERT?, Jaguar XJR9 in 1989.
At the request of the international motorcycle federation, concerned about rider safety in the French Motorcycle GP, a speed-limiting ?S? curve was introduced into the circuit in the approach to the Dunlop bridge. This reduced speeds under the bridge by 100 kph (62 mph) lowering the speed to 160 kph (100 mph) from 260 kph (162 mph). The new layout was used for the 24 Heures in 1987 and was in the circuit for all races on the Le Mans circuits.
In 1988 the Hunaudieres straight was resurfaced by the Highways Agency using a laser to obtain a perfectly flat surface. The result was a noticeable increase in maximum speeds.
CIRCUIT N? 10
Period: 1990 to 1996 - Length: 13.600 km (8.445 miles).
Record distance : 5100 km = 213,358 km/h (3167.1 miles/131.874 mph), PEUGEOT 905 3499 cc, BRABHAM-HELARY-BOUCHUT in 1993.
Lap record: Tests : 3?21??209 = 243.329 kph (151.145 mph) by Ph. ALLIOT, Peugeot 905 in 1992. Race: 3?27??47 = 235.986 kph by E. IRVINE, Toyota TS 010 in 1993.
At the request of FISA, two chicanes were introduced into the Hunaudieres straight in order to reduce maximum speeds. Despite the extra loads imposed on gearboxes and brakes by the new format, the number of finishers did not decrease significantly. In July 1990, the A.C.O. started work on a total renewal of the pits and infrastructure, resulting in a pits complex that put Le Mans on a level with the best in the world. Although the circuit length was not changed, the width of the start and finish area was increased to 12 metres (40 feet) and separated from the 15 metre-wide pit-lane by a 3 metre-wide section reserved for signalling, a function which now returned from Mulsanne.
CIRCUIT N? 11
Period: 1997 to 2001 - Length: 13.605 km (8.449 miles).
Record distance : 5007.988 km = 208.666 kph (3109.961 miles/129.582 mph), AUDI R8 3600 cc turbocharged of BIELA-KRISTENSEN-PIRRO.
Lap record: Tests: 3?29?930 = 233.306 kph (144.803 mph), M. BRUNDLE, TOYOTA GT ONE in 1999. Race : 3?35?032 = 227.771 kph, U. KATAYAMA, TOYOTA GT ONE in 1999.
The circuit length was extended by 5 metres following modifications to the Dunlop chicane. Considered to be slower than before, this section was improved, mainly by the addition of larger gravel-traps that were of benefit to motorcyclists and drivers who competed on the 4.305 Km (2.67 miles) Bugatti circuit during the rest of the year. During the winter of 2000/2001, the surface at Mulsanne was skimmed. The circuit length remained unchanged.
also, the gt-one road car isnt relevant to arclights claim about lemans lap records
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Post #16 Sun, Jul 29, 5:59 PM |
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arclight
Supercar Messi - 2432
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There are clearly better times
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Post #17 Wed, Aug 1, 5:25 PM |
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ickyick
New User - 6
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gee nice job reading it...last entry, Circuit No.11 "Lap record: Tests: 3?29?930 = 233.306 kph (144.803 mph), M. BRUNDLE, TOYOTA GT ONE in 1999. Race : 3?35?032 = 227.771 kph, U. KATAYAMA, TOYOTA GT ONE in 1999."
and no matter how much you think otherwise, comparing times on changed tracks is a completely pointless exercise, which is why record lists are always restarted whenever a track is changed...take a look at Barcelona, the official f1 website has the lap record at 1:22 posted by Massa this year...the times from 2006 were 6-9 seconds faster, so why would they say that was the record? Because they put a whopping great chichane before the last corner this year...but youd have to turn a blind eye to that with your logic
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