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Post #1 Wed, Oct 9, 8:47 PM |
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YamahaR6
Member - 160
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Look at the Civic Si, 1.6 L to a 2L engine w. same power but more torque.
The 3.5L V6 of Nissan, making big power and torque figures but with a big Engine, US style.
Even the so-called i-Vtec of Honda where the cam-shift is not noticeable is perhaps nothing more than a ploy to shift you away from the fact that with a bigger engine, there is generally more torque, and thus the curve is more linear making a cam-shift or when the valves open up or however VTEC works seem less noticeable.
I could be totally wrong here, but from what I understand, the way VTEC works is, it closes x number of valves/cylinder at low rpms, and then at a certain point, opens all of them at once. The big burst of O2 input to the engine increases the power and gives the car it's VTEC rush that Honda junkies love.
My contention is this: they are not increasing the power, but are artificially restricting it down low to enhance and exaggerate the effect when they release it up hi.
BTW: if the CTR came over here, Id get it in a sec.
No replacement for cubic displacement!
Dream Garage:
1968 Ford Mustang Fastback
Shelby Cobra
Nissan Skyline R-34
MV Agusta F4
Ducati 996
Ferrari 250GTO
Ferrari 355
Ferrari F2002
1999 Honda Civic Si
2002 Porsche C4S
Kawasaki Z1
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Post #2 Wed, Oct 9, 11:07 PM |
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SeansVette
LOL - 17389
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I have read in a couple places, including this website, that VTEC is actually variable valve LIFT as opposed to timing. I'm not 100% sure this is correct, but I am very sure about its intent.
The VTEC system allows the engine to run smooth and driveable at low RPM, while providing sufficient fuel at higher RPM.
Certainly they can design a system that would provide better performance down low. But that's not the intent of VTEC.
Lil' Bush: "We can't have a black man in the Whitehouse begging for change!"
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Post #3 Thu, Oct 10, 10:38 PM |
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Honda rulez
Supercar Messiah - 2019
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Honda made bigger engines mainly for the americans. In europe and Japan, there's no V6 accord, it uses a 2.4L engine, which is the same as the american 4 cyliner engine, but with 30more hp (190hp total).
10 cars that I THINK are good( not in order): Honda NSX, Chevrolet Corvette, Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Honda S2000, Nissan Skyline GT-R, Honda Dualnote, Honda Odessy, Honda Integra, Acura TL.
10 cars that I think are bad: Chevy Camaro, Pontiac Firebird, Pontiac Sunfire, Dodge Viper, Ford Mustang, Chevy Malibu, Chevy Cavalier, Ford Escort, Toyota MR-2 (SW20), Dodge Neon.
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Post #4 Thu, Oct 17, 1:08 PM |
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beliveinfiction
Supercar Guru - 527
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i-vtec is by no means a "Replacement for displacement", It dose give more low range torque (in comparison to the old vtec system) so it can be more easily driven on the street.
The entire notion of "There's no replacement for displacement" does not mean that only by displacement you can make HP and Torque, clearly there are other ways to. (Variable valve timing, forced induction ect.) It also does not refer to where the torque is located in the RPM range (power band). Typically a larger displacement engine will have good low end grunt, however a NASCAR V8 is 350CI and has high end power, reving to 10 or 11,000rpms. (Who said you canÂt rev a pushrod?)
Take a Honda 2.0 Liter, mod the heck out of it anything you can think of. It is possible to get huge power and Torque out of such a small engine but it is ultimately limited by its size. (As any motor is) Regardless of what you do to that motor it can still only breathe in 2.0 liters of air per cycle or anything else you might cram down its throat. (Nitrous oxide ect.) A 2.5 Liter inline 4 would ultimately make more power than the 2.0 liter, thatÂs why there is "no replacement for displacement."
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Post #5 Thu, Oct 17, 10:54 PM |
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Honda rulez
Supercar Messiah - 2019
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But more displacement means more money, less gas mileage, more weight most of the time.
10 cars that I THINK are good( not in order): Honda NSX, Chevrolet Corvette, Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Honda S2000, Nissan Skyline GT-R, Honda Dualnote, Honda Odessy, Honda Integra, Acura TL.
10 cars that I think are bad: Chevy Camaro, Pontiac Firebird, Pontiac Sunfire, Dodge Viper, Ford Mustang, Chevy Malibu, Chevy Cavalier, Ford Escort, Toyota MR-2 (SW20), Dodge Neon.
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Post #6 Fri, Oct 18, 7:36 AM |
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beliveinfiction
Supercar Guru - 527
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Quote from Honda rulez: "But more displacement means more money, less gas mileage, more weight most of the time."
All of what you said is generally true, I was never denying these issues just showing the real significance of "thereÂs no replacement for displacement"
Larger displacement engines donÂt always have to weigh significantly more. For example increasing an engines stroke to increase displacement would have little affect on the engineÂs weight. However in cases where there is an increase in weight, the weight gained is almost always compensated for in a gain in Torque. None the less I do understand that adding excessive weight can ruin the balance of a car. For example, a car with a FR drive train that has a 502 stuffed under the hood is not likely to handle to well being so front heavy.
Personally I think Nissan has an excellent choice for their main power train, their 3.5L V6. It has moderate displacement to give a good torque range, makes excellent power and will make for a well balanced car (i.e.: 350Z) All this while still being reasonably fuel efficient. But thatÂs just my two cents.
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Post #7 Fri, Oct 18, 11:09 PM |
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Honda rulez
Supercar Messiah - 2019
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The VQ35DE on the 350Z is not really wut i call: fuel economy, a corvette has even better fuel economy than it!
10 cars that I THINK are good( not in order): Honda NSX, Chevrolet Corvette, Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Honda S2000, Nissan Skyline GT-R, Honda Dualnote, Honda Odessy, Honda Integra, Acura TL.
10 cars that I think are bad: Chevy Camaro, Pontiac Firebird, Pontiac Sunfire, Dodge Viper, Ford Mustang, Chevy Malibu, Chevy Cavalier, Ford Escort, Toyota MR-2 (SW20), Dodge Neon.
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Post #8 Sat, Oct 19, 3:16 PM |
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turkish speed
New Member - 47
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well i believe that sports cars shouldn't have huge engines. They should be agile and quick.
The biggest japanese engine is toyota's 4.7 V8. And thats for a truck not a sports car.
Even though i like the dodge viper, it has over 7 liters!
That is more than most trucks. Thats the pnly way the American manufacturers can make good power. Even a mustang's 4.6 is still too big.
Well when the japanese increase their displ. its not like they go up to 5 or 7 liters or something.
i think 3.5 is as big as the jappers will make their engines on sports cars.
Compare a skyline GT-R to a Corvette. The gtr will give the corvette a run for its money, even though the gtr has a 2.5 I-6 and the vette has a 5.7L V8.
reliability and quality is also an issue. You can abuse the hell out of a honda NSX (in japan its a honda) and do the same to a viper and the viper will break down. The honda would still be cruising around.
Motor Trend had a test of the most top speed. The viper won and also blew a gasket. It totally disabled the car. It was sadly towed away.
Well i like domestics and imports alike, but i dont the domestic car's huge engine such as the viper's.
Life goes by fast,so should your car!!:)
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Post #9 Sun, Oct 20, 10:39 AM |
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Honda rulez
Supercar Messiah - 2019
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I agree. Even the best race cars in the world, Formula 1 cars, use 3.0L engines.
10 cars that I THINK are good( not in order): Honda NSX, Chevrolet Corvette, Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Honda S2000, Nissan Skyline GT-R, Honda Dualnote, Honda Odessy, Honda Integra, Acura TL.
10 cars that I think are bad: Chevy Camaro, Pontiac Firebird, Pontiac Sunfire, Dodge Viper, Ford Mustang, Chevy Malibu, Chevy Cavalier, Ford Escort, Toyota MR-2 (SW20), Dodge Neon.
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Post #10 Sun, Oct 20, 12:00 PM |
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beliveinfiction
Supercar Guru - 527
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The Skyline GT-R is an all around performer but would just lose out to a base Vette and couldn't even think of touching a Z06. The Skyline may have a smaller engine or make more hp/liter but it still loses. Just for the record a Chevy 350 is not considered to be a heavy engine. (This, by no means, makes the Skyline a poor performer)
Whether you like the viperÂs large engine or not it beats out a Skyline and NSX or nearly anything else Japan could throw at it. You say that if you run a viper hard it will break down, what are you basing that on? Your own ignorance about them? A Viper is a very well built car and needs to be if itÂs going to handle the torque of an 8.0L V10. Some people who tune or restore muscle cars use a viper transmission because itÂs nearly bullet proof. Same with your statement about running an NSX hard and it wonÂt break. Honda are well built car but any car will fail if ran hard enough. The Vipers internals and transmission must handle 500lb/ft of torque, where the NSX only has to endure 210lb/ft, higher stress would contribute to a higher failure rate, which the viper still doesnÂt have.
You also used the example of a viper blowing a gasket after a top speed test. Running a car (ANY Car) to its limit is very stressful and a gasket failure is not very unusual. Regardless of this the Viper did win top speed contest.
You think that a sports car should be agile and I agree but both the viper and corvette handle exceptionally well have large(r) engines, so be open minded that there are cars that perform very well of every shape and size.
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Post #11 Sun, Oct 20, 12:19 PM |
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beliveinfiction
Supercar Guru - 527
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For its size and power the VQ35DE has good if not better than average fuel economy. It gets 20/26 where the 2002 NSX which is 3 tenths of a liter smaller and makes nearly the same hp gets 17/24. A Z06 Vette gets 19/28, very good highway for a 5.7L
I got these figures from: http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/index.html
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Post #12 Mon, Oct 21, 9:14 PM |
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Honda rulez
Supercar Messiah - 2019
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But the Accord's V6 with 240hp gets 21/30.
And the reason why the NSX is not as fuel economy is ebcuz it has a higher redline, people tend to rev it higher before shifting to higher gear, and it's common sense that the higher the rpm, the less fuel economy, u don't have to rev that high to get the NSX going, it has more than adequate power at low rpm.
10 cars that I THINK are good( not in order): Honda NSX, Chevrolet Corvette, Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Honda S2000, Nissan Skyline GT-R, Honda Dualnote, Honda Odessy, Honda Integra, Acura TL.
10 cars that I think are bad: Chevy Camaro, Pontiac Firebird, Pontiac Sunfire, Dodge Viper, Ford Mustang, Chevy Malibu, Chevy Cavalier, Ford Escort, Toyota MR-2 (SW20), Dodge Neon.
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Post #13 Mon, Oct 28, 6:37 PM |
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beliveinfiction
Supercar Guru - 527
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The NSX would consume more fuel at higher RPMs, but EPA fuel economy ratings are the best the vehicle is capable of. If you were to run an NSX to the Redline throughout every gear for a full tank gas, you wouldnÂt get anywhere close to the projected 17/21mpg. So having a higher redline isnÂt very relevant to fuel economy. The NSX doesnÂt get outstanding fuel economy because itÂs 12 year old technology. My comparison of it to the Nissan 3.5 isnÂt really fair.
I would only expect the New accord V6, .5 liters smaller to out perform it.
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Post #14 Mon, Oct 28, 10:32 PM |
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Honda rulez
Supercar Messiah - 2019
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No no, i meant that people tend to rev higher in a high revving engine. May be my english is not that good, and i confused u, sorry.
The new accord V6 is actually the same one as in the last gen accord, but it's only more powerful, quieter, smoother, and better fuel economy.
10 cars that I THINK are good( not in order): Honda NSX, Chevrolet Corvette, Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Honda S2000, Nissan Skyline GT-R, Honda Dualnote, Honda Odessy, Honda Integra, Acura TL.
10 cars that I think are bad: Chevy Camaro, Pontiac Firebird, Pontiac Sunfire, Dodge Viper, Ford Mustang, Chevy Malibu, Chevy Cavalier, Ford Escort, Toyota MR-2 (SW20), Dodge Neon.
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Post #15 Tue, Nov 5, 7:50 PM |
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beliveinfiction
Supercar Guru - 527
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No your missing my point, If some one wants to drive an NSX its fastest they will be in the upper RPM range. However the tendency for the driver to rev the car higer is not responsible for the EPA rating of 17 mpg. Any EPA rating is the best possible fuel economy they could obtain from the car. Frequently running the car in its upper RPM range will result in less than the EPA Rated 17mpg.
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Post #16 Fri, Nov 8, 2:37 PM |
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Honda rulez
Supercar Messiah - 2019
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I'm confused.
10 cars that I THINK are good( not in order): Honda NSX, Chevrolet Corvette, Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Honda S2000, Nissan Skyline GT-R, Honda Dualnote, Honda Odessy, Honda Integra, Acura TL.
10 cars that I think are bad: Chevy Camaro, Pontiac Firebird, Pontiac Sunfire, Dodge Viper, Ford Mustang, Chevy Malibu, Chevy Cavalier, Ford Escort, Toyota MR-2 (SW20), Dodge Neon.
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Post #17 Mon, Nov 11, 5:34 PM |
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BOSS302Man
Member - 64
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coool,car
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Post #18 Wed, Nov 13, 8:14 AM |
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Poindexter
Member - 102
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man whoever said that Vipers handle well some time back was not thinking all that hard.
Also, he said that the skyline and nsx can't touch the vette? thats simply cause of the 276 hp regulation buddy. $400 dollars worth of unresricting the engine on the N1 engine of the skyline hits 450 hp, which is pretty much what the car was made to run at instead of 276, so yes, i would say it can handle a Z06. Nothing stands up to my toyota matrix though. OH BABY, i think i dynoed almost in the triple digits the other day
Sometime you may realize the best car isn't the fastest 0-60. Some cars do it in under 2 seconds, but that doesn't mean they'll still be running after 2 seconds.
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Post #19 Wed, Nov 13, 8:48 PM |
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beliveinfiction
Supercar Guru - 527
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Dodge Viper ACR: .98g (skidpad)
Dodge Viper SRT-10: 1.0g
Chevrolet Corvette Z06: 1.0g
Acura NSX: .93g
NSX loses in the curves and on the straights.
I dont care how you tune a car, were talking about factory specs buddy, the bottom line is it COULD have more hp but it DOESN'T. (almost every factory car is restricted)
Looks like you weren't thinking at all.
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Post #20 Mon, Nov 18, 7:46 AM |
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TomW
New Member - 39
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Since when has skidpan g-force had anything to do with handling ability? Skidpan g-force tells you about grip, which is mostly down to how fat the tyres are.
Handling is all about how quickly the car responds to inputs, how easily the car is unsettled by bumps, what the car tells you about its grip levels (feedback), how balanced the car is and what happens when you exceed the grip of the tyres (on the limit behaviour).
Tom
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Post #21 Mon, Nov 18, 9:06 PM |
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beliveinfiction
Supercar Guru - 527
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Since when has Grip not had anything to do with handiling? A car with no grip would slide out in a corner. I agree that handeling cant be summed up in a number but the skidpaid is altleast a partial indication of the cars handeling. In fact its really the only way to test a car's handeling without actually driving the car.
Grip is NOT specific to tire size the integra type R pulls .92g's And i viper pulls .96g's. The difference in tire size between these two cars is huge but the skidpad figures are not. The viper has large rear tires to put 500lb/ft of torque to the ground but the integra has rather thin tires being derived from a civic.
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Post #22 Wed, Nov 20, 9:58 AM |
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ImpalaLS
Member - 102
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Honda rules: More displacement means more money, less MPG, and more weight. Sounds like a pretty stupid rule if the NSX gets 17mpg while the Z06 supposedly gets 28mpg on the highway and 19 in the city.
Um....wait till the '06 Z06 comes, then you little viper fags il switch....
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Post #23 Fri, Nov 22, 5:32 PM |
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Honda rulez
Supercar Messiah - 2019
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A Ferrari 348 has 0.9G, a Porsche Carrera 4S has 0.81, and a Vette ZR-1 has 0.88G. The 348 has the worst handling in the group, while the vette has the best.
IN a skidpad test, the drivers go wild and they don't get penalties for spinning out or losing control. And the test track is super flat and smooth. On a real track or road, they are not perfectly smooth and round and smooth. Skidpad doesn't tell ghow easy the car handles.
the above is from the November issue of Car and Driver.
10 cars that I THINK are good( not in order): Honda NSX, Chevrolet Corvette, Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Honda S2000, Nissan Skyline GT-R, Honda Dualnote, Honda Odessy, Honda Integra, Acura TL.
10 cars that I think are bad: Chevy Camaro, Pontiac Firebird, Pontiac Sunfire, Dodge Viper, Ford Mustang, Chevy Malibu, Chevy Cavalier, Ford Escort, Toyota MR-2 (SW20), Dodge Neon.
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Post #24 Wed, Dec 25, 8:12 AM |
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speedyconcept
Member - 95
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believe it or not.. the japanese have a 280hp cap on their streets i think maybe thats why they dont have big displacement and take their 2L cars to their limits..but im not sure why they have 320hp TT supras running around though .....too lazy to research -_______-
...wisemen speak because they have something to say, retards speak because they have to say something...
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Post #25 Mon, Jan 6, 7:01 AM |
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BrownDoggie
Supercar Guru - 1265
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Yes, but skidpad AND slalom can tell you a lot about the vehicle's ability to react to the road under extreme driving conditions.
Dodge Viper SRT-10: 1.1 g skidpad. Oh, and C&D says it handles like no Viper before it.
As for the "Performance" package RSX-S, VTC (i-VTEC's supposed "power booster") is nothing more than Vacuum Advance; all engines have, slightly advancing timing at higher RPM's (this does help slightly with low-end torque).
I'm sorry, but 142 lbft @ 7000 rom is NOT low end Torque, Formula 1 cars are massively supercharged 3.0 liters (this effectively increases displacement), and the fastest cars in the world have 10-liter engines. There really is "No replacement..."
Well, you know how it goes.
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Superbot
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Posted: Today |
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Superbot
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| All Forums > 2003 Acura RSX Type-S Performace Package > Even Japan's Big 4 realize "no replacement...displacement" > Post Reply |
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