Re: American Cars can't Handle!

Discussion in '2000 Honda S2000' started by LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4, Aug 9, 2002.

  1. I've already said it a bunch of times, but I'll say it again: the Civic Si sucks. When I (I can't speak for others) say that "American Cars Can't Handle" I mean that, compared to other cars, the Camaro, Viper, Mustang, and, yes, even the Corvette don't have sophisticated handling. The Camaro and the Mustang, for obvious reasons, are the worst perpetrators here. But the Z06 doesn't handle as well as a 911, and the Viper doesn't handle better than a Skyline. The main feature in American cars is the big, torquey, throaty engine that makes it go fast. Handling is an extra that they add on to the "racier" versions sometimes, but even then it's only above-average, not superlative.

    Again, though, your point is a good one. Goddamn rycers.
    <!-- Signature -->
     
  2. #2 SoupedUpSupra, Aug 9, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from SeansVette</i>
    <b>How many times have I read this in Honda forums?

    CAR AND DRIVER, MARCH 2002
    Rating the 3 Hottest Hatches

    Honda Civic Si
    VW Golf GTI
    Ford SVT Focus

    Page 46
    FIRST PLACE
    Ford SVT Focus

    "But at $19,265 well optioned, the SVT Focus with all the go-faster parts is cheaper than the GTI and on par with the Si.
    Even if you exclude price from consideration, the Focus a winner. After trundling around in the Civic and herding the GTI through the streets of Willow, we found the Focus to be a revelation. It is simply in a handling class all by itself."

    Damn! Honda got beat by Ford at their own game. Oh but wait, I thought Ford was incapable of making cars that can handle like those crafty Japanese cars. Maybe, just maybe that stereotype you've been reading in the forums and sucking on like a huge COCKtail turned about to be BS.

    Here's another line I love from the review.
    "Suspension tuning is a black art, and SVT Engineering is staffed with wizards."
    Isn't SVT the same team that designs the Mustang Cobra? Weren't some Honda junkies saying the Mustang Cobra is only fast in a straight line?

    Wow! Read reviews in the supercars.net Honda forums and Ford engineers are stupid dinosaurs who can't make a car handle if their life depended on it.
    But read Car and Driver and they're wizards in the black art of suspension tuning.

    Don't worry. I know Ford is stepping on Honda's toes by building a better compact fastback. I'm sure someday Honda will come up with a pony car that will beat the... oh wait... nevermind.
    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    lol...another humorous post by a redneck. Very nice post there, but not so fast. I've got the same mag too. I'm not exactly a Honda supporter, but on page 45 it states "For VTEC aficionados, the '02 Civic Si, which is the only American-model Civic to use the three-door body, will take some getting used to."
    Gee, I wonder why? Funny, this is strange for a Honda. No more high-revving VTEC, haha. The older Civics were cheaper, if I can remember correctly(around 18,000+)and they had the real VTEC. And what is this...the Focus is tuned?! By SVT, the tuner of the SVT Mustang Cobra, of course. Kinda cheap, the Focus, which has a lower price tag, typical for American cars, gets an advantage by getting tuned by the Special Vehicle Team. And like most people, I agree with them, the Civic Si sucks. Haha, and even the SVT Focus's performance is only equal to the Civic's, ouch. Boy, the F&F fans are going to thank me for this or at least agree with my point.

    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Guibo</i>
    <b>Jesus Christ, don't you guys ever do any research?

    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>rthompson, once again, you're quoting that R&T Supertuner Challenge article, where the Z06 barely managed to beat the 911T. The Vette's driver was far superior to that of the Turbo, and he was accustomed to racing C5-Rs.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Uh, come again? What was the name of that Porsche driver? Hint: 5-time winner of the 24 Hours of Daytona; outright winner of the 24 Hours of Le Mans in '77, '83, and '94; driver of the 911 Turbo in Bridgestone SuperCar series, http://www.brumosporsche.com/racing.html; holder of the record for most top ten finishes at Sebring (11), most Sebring starts (28)
    More here:
    "HURLEY HAYWOOD: Is one of the most accomplished race drivers in the World. His list of records and achievements is second to none in motorsports. It would require a book to do justice to Haywood's success; here is a short list: Two-time IMSA GT Champion, TransAm Champion, Supercar Champion, five-time winner of the Daytona 24 hours, three-time winner of the 24 hours of Le Mans, two-time winner of Sebring 12 hour, all-time winner of Endurance Classics: 10 wins at Daytona, Le Mans and Sebring, only driver to repeat as winner of both Daytona and Le Mans in the same year, three-time IROC participant, Florida Sports Hall of Fame, and a lot more."
    http://www.digitaldeli.net/rc/drivers.html

    Uh, the 996 was in perfectly capable hands that day.

    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>where the Z06 barely managed to beat the 911T.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Barely? 1.9 seconds on a 5X.X second road course is a huge difference. Racers tend to measure in tenths of a second on even much longer tracks.

    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b> The Viper tested at 8'10" at Nurburgring on October 1, 1997. The Skyline tested at 7'59" in 1995. Of course, that record-holding (until the Porsche GT2) Skyline was different from the standard factory unit in that it had the 200kph governor removed, so you might say that the a stock Skyline never beat a stock Viper GTS.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Ha, here we go again. The 7:59 for the Skyline was for the shortened Nordschleife, not the full course used as standard by SportAuto. The best time ever for a Skyline on the full course is an 8:28, done by Autocar driver Stephen Sutcliffe in a 277-hp Skyline GTR.
    Not only was the 7:59 Skyline pre-production, there is much doubt as to how "stock" it really was (hint: tweaked boost and suspension).
    The Viper that did 8:10 was rated at only 406 hp, typical of a UK-spec Viper. No ABS, either.
    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Whats this? I'm a Skyline fan also, and I have reason to object. Anyway, you can slip hidden details from me, I'm a real careful reader. I even remember, the guy was used to paddle-shifting Porsches - and trust me, paddle-shifting is so much easier than a manual, though not as fun - and he shifted awkwardly and unsurely with the Porsche. Though supposedly, I'm not sure, UK-Spec Vipers could have the same performance as the US-Spec Viper, or at least near equal. Know how even though Japanese cars have a horsepower rating limited to 276 HP, their American counterparts(take the Supra TT, for example), may have up to 320 horsepower, but similiar performance. Basically, that was a question. And questions need to be answered. If only the Nissan offered some sort of lightened version of the R-30 series Skylines, so they would show the competition what they were really made of, but of course, the AWD would be vital still. Then it would be a fair fight. After all, Guibo, you stated that the facts needed to be set straight, right? Right? By the way, that's cool, working for SportAuto, I wish I had that job, even though it MAY not pay as my current job, but its a lot more enjoyable, and that way I wouldn't have to endure work.<!-- Signature -->
     
  3. Dude, that's a REALLY obnoxious signature, full of complete bullshit.<!-- Signature -->
     
  4. Ford Motor Company - FoMoCo
    Honda Motor Company - (HoMo)Co

    Honda - Had One, Never Did Again
    Supra - Sterile, Usually Plump Ricer Asshole
     
  5. American Cars can't Handle!

    How many times have I read this in Honda forums?

    CAR AND DRIVER, MARCH 2002
    Rating the 3 Hottest Hatches

    Honda Civic Si
    VW Golf GTI
    Ford SVT Focus

    Page 46
    FIRST PLACE
    Ford SVT Focus

    "But at $19,265 well optioned, the SVT Focus with all the go-faster parts is cheaper than the GTI and on par with the Si.
    Even if you exclude price from consideration, the Focus a winner. After trundling around in the Civic and herding the GTI through the streets of Willow, we found the Focus to be a revelation. It is simply in a handling class all by itself."

    Damn! Honda got beat by Ford at their own game. Oh but wait, I thought Ford was incapable of making cars that can handle like those crafty Japanese cars. Maybe, just maybe that stereotype you've been reading in the forums and sucking on like a huge COCKtail turned about to be BS.

    Here's another line I love from the review.
    "Suspension tuning is a black art, and SVT Engineering is staffed with wizards."
    Isn't SVT the same team that designs the Mustang Cobra? Weren't some Honda junkies saying the Mustang Cobra is only fast in a straight line?

    Wow! Read reviews in the supercars.net Honda forums and Ford engineers are stupid dinosaurs who can't make a car handle if their life depended on it.
    But read Car and Driver and they're wizards in the black art of suspension tuning.

    Don't worry. I know Ford is stepping on Honda's toes by building a better compact fastback. I'm sure someday Honda will come up with a pony car that will beat the... oh wait... nevermind.
    <!-- Signature -->
     
  6. It really depends on how the car is made.
     
  7. SeansVette. You should just ignore people like that when they make stupid comments like that. I'm an Import fan but even I know that the cars like the Vette or Viper CAN HANDLE. These cars (as much as I hate to admit it) outhandled the NSX, one of the best handling cars in the world. So just think of people who make comments like that as a joke and don't take them too personal.
     
  8. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>I've already said it a bunch of times, but I'll say it again: the Civic Si sucks. When I (I can't speak for others) say that "American Cars Can't Handle" I mean that, compared to other cars, the Camaro, Viper, Mustang, and, yes, even the Corvette don't have sophisticated handling. The Camaro and the Mustang, for obvious reasons, are the worst perpetrators here. But the Z06 doesn't handle as well as a 911, and the Viper doesn't handle better than a Skyline. The main feature in American cars is the big, torquey, throaty engine that makes it go fast. Handling is an extra that they add on to the "racier" versions sometimes, but even then it's only above-average, not superlative.

    Again, though, your point is a good one. Goddamn rycers.
    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Around a track, a z06 will beat a 911 (not the turbo) and a viper a skyline. Do you not like fast cars?
     
  9. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>I've already said it a bunch of times, but I'll say it again: the Civic Si sucks. When I (I can't speak for others) say that "American Cars Can't Handle" I mean that, compared to other cars, the Camaro, Viper, Mustang, and, yes, even the Corvette don't have sophisticated handling. The Camaro and the Mustang, for obvious reasons, are the worst perpetrators here. But the Z06 doesn't handle as well as a 911, and the Viper doesn't handle better than a Skyline. The main feature in American cars is the big, torquey, throaty engine that makes it go fast. Handling is an extra that they add on to the "racier" versions sometimes, but even then it's only above-average, not superlative.

    Again, though, your point is a good one. Goddamn rycers.
    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    The Z06 beat a 911 Turbo around a roadcourse despite having less HP... that blows your theory.<!-- Signature -->
     
  10. rthompson, once again, you're quoting that R&T Supertuner Challenge article, where the Z06 barely managed to beat the 911T. The Vette's driver was far superior to that of the Turbo, and he was accustomed to racing C5-Rs. I doubt that anyone who has driven a 911 Turbo and a Z06 would say that the road manners of the Z06 were better. Lateral grip means nothing, and even there the Z06 only has about .05g more. Porsche's AWD system is fantastic, as are their twin turbos, as is their Variocam system. The Z06 is fast, but the Turbo is faster, not to mention more luxurious.

    The same goes with the Skyline, except for the luxury part. The Viper tested at 8'10" at Nurburgring on October 1, 1997. The Skyline tested at 7'59" in 1995. Of course, that record-holding (until the Porsche GT2) Skyline was different from the standard factory unit in that it had the 200kph governor removed, so you might say that the a stock Skyline never beat a stock Viper GTS.

    So, I stand by my theory. Nice try "blowing" it.<!-- Signature -->
     
  11. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from KraZ28</i>
    <b>I'm sorry, but the camaro can take a turn average 20mph faster than other cars. And yes, the ZO6 out performed EVERY CAR in its class</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    You're right about the Camaro. You could totally take a corner 20mph faster than a Mitsubishi Montero Sport. You might run into trouble if you started racing LeSabres, though.

    The Z06 did outperform many cars in its class in many areas, but it all depends on which class you chose. Its price class? Its weight class? Speed class? French class? Low class?

    Had anyone else made that Z06 comment, I might not have cared, but when you start out by saying that the Camaro is 20mph faster than other cars in the corners, you deserve to take some shit.<!-- Signature -->
     
  12. LOL! "Low class"?? That's just not right. <!-- Signature -->
     
  13. you know I was just twistin' his balls<!-- Signature -->
     
  14. The Z06 is probably the fastest well-rounded sports car in it's price class, it costs about $70,000 in kuwait. But comparing it to the 911T, in my opinion is far-fetched. the older Z06 is a great car, I had the chance to drive one, handles impressively, but not quite as impressive as the 911T. even ultra high speed behavior, the 911T @300Km/h is rock solid, the Vette just doesn't feel as safe. <!-- Signature -->
     
  15. Believe it or not there is a noticable difference in power and handling between the 01 and 02 Z06 (from what other Vette owners have told me).
    Also, unless Car and Driver outright lied, numbers don't lie. Regardless of which one you say is the better performer, I think it's at least close enough to call them equal. That's just a fact.
    Now don't get me wrong if money were no object I would take the 911 Turbo. With that car you'll be getting more benefits than just performance. But the fact is the Z06 can stand up to it, anywhere, anytime. <!-- Signature -->
     
  16. No one said anything about C&D stating any lies. But you have to know that bringing one top notch pro who's been racing the C5-R for some time, and comparing his results to someone with less experience driving the 911T is just unfair. like LanciaDelta said, the Driver makes the car. Heck someone like me driving a 911T and a pro driving an S2000 would make a close challenge, although the 2 cars are far from close in performance. You should see how a 911T switches lanes F A S T while doing +120mph. The Car is so glued and totally composed in a way you'll have to experience to believe. Vettes are great, but taking the whole performance package into account, it just doest shake the 911's tail.

    P.S I do agree with your point though, whenever the price bell rings, the Z06 is the 1st car on my doorsteps.<!-- Signature -->
     
  17. #17 Guibo, Aug 9, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Jesus Christ, don't you guys ever do any research?

    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>rthompson, once again, you're quoting that R&T Supertuner Challenge article, where the Z06 barely managed to beat the 911T. The Vette's driver was far superior to that of the Turbo, and he was accustomed to racing C5-Rs.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Uh, come again? What was the name of that Porsche driver? Hint: 5-time winner of the 24 Hours of Daytona; outright winner of the 24 Hours of Le Mans in '77, '83, and '94; driver of the 911 Turbo in Bridgestone SuperCar series, http://www.brumosporsche.com/racing.html; holder of the record for most top ten finishes at Sebring (11), most Sebring starts (28)
    More here:
    "HURLEY HAYWOOD: Is one of the most accomplished race drivers in the World. His list of records and achievements is second to none in motorsports. It would require a book to do justice to Haywood's success; here is a short list: Two-time IMSA GT Champion, TransAm Champion, Supercar Champion, five-time winner of the Daytona 24 hours, three-time winner of the 24 hours of Le Mans, two-time winner of Sebring 12 hour, all-time winner of Endurance Classics: 10 wins at Daytona, Le Mans and Sebring, only driver to repeat as winner of both Daytona and Le Mans in the same year, three-time IROC participant, Florida Sports Hall of Fame, and a lot more."
    http://www.digitaldeli.net/rc/drivers.html

    Uh, the 996 was in perfectly capable hands that day.

    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>where the Z06 barely managed to beat the 911T.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Barely? 1.9 seconds on a 5X.X second road course is a huge difference. Racers tend to measure in tenths of a second on even much longer tracks.

    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b> The Viper tested at 8'10" at Nurburgring on October 1, 1997. The Skyline tested at 7'59" in 1995. Of course, that record-holding (until the Porsche GT2) Skyline was different from the standard factory unit in that it had the 200kph governor removed, so you might say that the a stock Skyline never beat a stock Viper GTS.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Ha, here we go again. The 7:59 for the Skyline was for the shortened Nordschleife, not the full course used as standard by SportAuto. The best time ever for a Skyline on the full course is an 8:28, done by Autocar driver Stephen Sutcliffe in a 277-hp Skyline GTR.
    Not only was the 7:59 Skyline pre-production, there is much doubt as to how "stock" it really was (hint: tweaked boost and suspension).
    The Viper that did 8:10 was rated at only 406 hp, typical of a UK-spec Viper. No ABS, either.
     
  18. Whoops! I didn't do any research on that one, I just read the article last year, where they said that the Vette driver pulled of clutchless shifts and drove the C5 like there was no tomorrow. I also remember reading something about the Porsche driver being more comfortable in a 993. Even a fantastic driver can be outdone by a lesser one who is more comfortable in his car. Also, the 1.9s difference on a small course is huge, but it isn't hard to gain 1.9s in a bad lap (say, when breaking too long, expecting more oversteer than the AWD turbo provides). How many runs did they do? Are the numbers the average or the best for the day? Why did the Porsche do .3s worse than the factory quotes in 0-60? More importantly, why did the Z06 do .5s worse? Altitude? Temp? Pressure? I don't have the article anymore, and I can't find it on the C&D page. Do you just have a library of this stuff sitting around? Where do you get your info? It's impressive; too bad you only use it to trash others. I know I deserved it, but don't you ever have anything nice to say? Who are you (if you don't mind my asking) and why (and how) are you so ever-present on this site? You seem only to pop up to correct factual mistakes and plug American muscle, and you do so with arrogance and anger. In the end, though, I am humbled by your wrath and wealth of information.

    As for the Skyline thing, why aren't any other cars tested on the same circuit that Porsche uses? The GT2 absolutely destroyed the Skyline's record, so it's hard to believe that no one else could ever beat 7'59" until the GT2 came along, but that's what Nurburgring allowed to be published.

    It was my fault for not re-reading the Supertuner Challenge article, but the test still doesn't seem fair to me. The C&D boys made a point of mentioning the ability of the Vette driver, presumably because they felt the same way about the test. The Vette has 300lbs on the 911, but the 911 has a few HP and lb-ft and AWD on the Vette. It should be pretty even.<!-- Signature -->
     
  19. HAHAHAHAHA!

    Guibo YOU DA MAN! And Lancia, you took that like a champ. I was literally laughing between both of those last posts. "do you just have a library of this stuff sitting around?" "don't you ever have anything nice to say??" LOL I'm sorry, but that was priceless. Guibo was spewing so much information it was like he studied it for years.

    In all seriousness, Guibo help me out. Where do you get all this information from? I want to learn about all of the different tracks that stock production cars are tested on, the different races, rules, drivers, etc. When cars are tested at a track is it an EVENT or just a magazine road test? I'm particularly interested in races and track tests for stock, factory production cars.

    If you could just give me a brief summery of how it all works, and then point me in the right direction to find the details I'd greatly appreciate it. If anyone else has input that's cool too. But I'd also love to hear from Guibo since he seems to be the Yoda of racing.

    Thanks!
    <!-- Signature -->
     
  20. Seriously, that's what I want to know, Sean. And I think I'm allowed some childish remarks after being spanked like that. Jesus christ, the tone and content of his post send me back to preschool! Magnifique!<!-- Signature -->
     
  21. #21 Guibo, Aug 9, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    OK, Lancia. You have to understand something. There's no "wrath" in my post, nor arrogance, nor desire to belittle others. People may interpret it as such. But that's their problem. Secondly, the facts needed to be set straight. And the facts are certainly out there to be had. It irks me somewhat when people shortchange the driving abilities of Hurley Haywood. He's a living legend in international motorsport, not just in Porsches, but in AWD Audis as well. Along with Hans Stuck, he put Audi back on the motorsport map in the late '80s when Audi entered its cars in IMSA GTO and SCCA competition. This is partly how I get my info also. I've been around long enough to remember such times. I'm a fairly avid motorsport fan and automotive enthusiast, under the impression that others here are like-minded. Sadly, this isn't always the case.
    And yes, I have amassed quite a bit of a library. A few R&T issues from back in the early '80s. How is it that I use it to “trash others”? If they’ve made the mistake of premature assumption about a particular car, that’s their problem. If I have the means to correct it, I will. That's the nature of an open forum. And if I don’t know something, I’ll just butt out. I’m not going to act as if I know something when in fact I clearly don’t. My mistake is in assuming that others will act in like manner.
    BTW, check out the 959 Sport forum to see if I’ve used it to “trash others”. You’ve only seen a mere sampling of what I’ve posted here and elsewhere in the forum.

    Why were those cars so slow in the SuperTuner Challenge? Yes, weather was a consideration. There was a heavy wind.
    “Indeed, all was clear on Tuesday morning, but once running, we found that the back straight was not long enough for most of the cars to get up to 150 mph because they were running against a prevailing 15-mph head wind on this humid 90-degree day.”
    http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/2001/September/supertuner/200109_st_challenge_intro.xml?&page=2
    And considering C&D was testing the tuner cars for durability and drivability, more than one lap for each car was allowed. The Mallet Corvette, for instance, had at least 3 for sure. I’m fairly certainly C&D, just like the other mags, does more than one run for each car they test around a road course. Averaged or not, it doesn’t matter as long as the same standard applies to all cars tested (stock vs. stock, tuned vs. tuned, etc.)

    On the issue of Nurburgring, Porsche does test on the standard circuit. The same one used by SportAuto for all of its cars. Why the Skyline that did 7:59 was on the shorter circuit, I don’t know. The Blitz Supra was also tested on that shortened configuration and got a 7:21, 30 seconds faster than it could manage on the full course. The E36 M3 Evo did 8:20. On the standard course, the E36 M3 Evo clocks in at around 8:40.
    There are two different pit in/out sections. Depending on which one a testing team chooses, they will have different lap times.
    To my knowledge, the 7:55 set by the Caterham R500 Superlight has been standing for quite a long time. At least a year before the 996 GT2 came along.
     
  22. I still see a little arrogance. It's the "Jesus Christ, don't you guys ever do any research?" and the "Ha, here we go again" and the sarcasm and the "that's their problem" that makes me think that. I'm not saying I don't do that sometimes too, but you have to realize how you're presenting yourself, even if it's not intentional. I was an idiot, but you're not likely to win any new supporters or change anyone's perceptions with stuff like that.

    Anyway, other than being around for a while, how do you get your info? Reputable lap times are very difficult for me to find, and you couldn't possibly have all those numbers committed to memory, unless...Rain Man?

    Just out of curiosity, how old do you think I am, or, rather, how long do you think I've been at this car thing?<!-- Signature -->
     
  23. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>I was an idiot, but you're not likely to win any new supporters or change anyone's perceptions with stuff like that.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    OK, that might mean something to me. If I cared about winning supporters or changing people's perceptions. If it's one thing I've learned on these forums, it's that only a few people are really open to new ideas. Most are so entrenched in their preconceptions about a car or type of car from a particular place that there's no turning back. No amount of evidence can sway their opinion. Even when it's sitting right in their hands. Not that it's not fun talking about cars. Nor do I take pleasure in amassing a cult of enemies. If that's the way it's gotta be, then so be it.

    How old do I think you are? Haven't got a clue, nor do I care to guess. I've come across plenty of older folk who should have known better and behave like children. And there are a handful of 15 year olds who display a level of knowledge of cars in a very technical sense that I couldn't even comprehend when I was 15. So, you have those extremes.

    Regarding the "Jesus Christ" comment, I don't think I was out of line. People should have known who Hurley Haywood is. To conclude that the Porsche lost due to a 2nd-rate driver is ludicrous, and does Haywood's reputation a disservice. (Not that he ever checks in here, LOL.) But when in doubt, minimize the variable of the dirver. See R&T's test last year when IMSA GT champion and Le Mans class winner Steve Millen drove both cars.
     
  24. #24 Guibo, Aug 9, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Regarding those lap times, I'll let you in on a little secret. I work for a well-known German motoring magazine, SportAuto. I'm able to test many of these cars, sometimes 4-5 in one test session. This is done over the course of a week, more or less. We take the cars to the Nurburgring and Hockenheim circuits and run them through individual acceleration, braking, and cornering tests. Combined, this is what we call the Supertest, and is done quarterly. We currently have the 550 Barchetta, SL55 AMG, and AM Vanquish lined up for the next Supertest, to be published in the summer.
    As a bonus, the company sponsors a car to be run at the 24 Hours of Nurburgring every year. Last year, we didn't do too well (see finishing position #139 below):
    http://www.24h-rennen.de/live/gesamt_24h.htm
    The year before, we did better in the BMW M Coupe:
    http://www.24h-rennen.de/index.php4?language=de&menu=24hinfos.historie&content=rennergebnis-2000

    This year, we'll be behind the wheel of the new GT2. Should be a fun time.
     
  25. #25 Guibo, Aug 9, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Oh, just for clarification, if you read that previous post and dismissed it as rubbish, good for you. You pass the test. It's nice to have a few laughs now and then. Witness the rumour of the BMW M7 in the main forums. It's a riot. And yes, Horst von Saurma is no doubt in a totally different league than 99.99% of the members in these forums.

    Do I have the track times committed to memory? Yes, many of them. Just things I've picked up here and there. The rest are in a database. You can see some of my sources here:

    http://www.supercars.net/Msg?viewThread=true&forumID=1&threadID=82498
     

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