Re: Torque Issue

Discussion in '2002 Mazda RX-8' started by Krazy383, Aug 9, 2002.

  1. and yes...we can go on for months about which cars are faster...theres always a bigger dog<!-- Signature -->
     
  2. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from jitzu7</i>
    <b>To try and answer Krazy383 question. How can cars with less hp beat cars with more hp. Sometimes it depends on the transmission in the car. For example, I know the New Toyota Celica (best model) can beat a V-6 Camaro or Firebird(samething) from 0-60mph. Typically, (only from my prospective) Japanese car makers concentrate more on the transmissions than the Hp. American car makers tend to be the opposite. Traditionally, in the states tons of hp was the thing to do. American makers are now catching up with the times. In my opinion, American makers are really big doggers - they only care big hp cars(and trucks). Look at the top cars in the states. Corvette(like the new one), mustang(D-), Viper(okay...)..etc. Its not so much the gear ratio, but just how good the transmission is. You also have to take into account the fact that the v-6 camaro..is not a top sports car, whereas the SS Camero is. The Celica(top model)is toyotas top sports car sold in the states right now, so they can affort to maek it a little better. To me, Europeans make the best cars. They offer a lot of hp, torque, and great and I mean great transmissions. The TVR Cerbera 4.2(the what?-I know) is a good example. No corvette, supra or z car can beat it with out some serious up grades..its transmission is just that good. </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    this guy is rite and Id ahve to say even with mods most of those cars will have some trouble beating the TVR. the Cebera speed 12 is awsome piece of technology.<!-- Signature -->
     
  3. Now I don't want to lean towards Japanese cars or anything but have you noticed how the only 2 american cars we compare are the corvette and the mustang? We compare them to the skyline, rx7, rx8, supra, and more. All of which are japanese. Are the corvette and mustang the only american cars that can compete with japanese cars punks? So stop saying, "This car sucks, the corvette could woop it!" because it could woop any other american car. Also, stop camparing echos, kias, and other economical family cars to corvettes!<!-- Signature -->
     
  4. you forget how little the engine of this thing is. think of the engine size and the number of torque it actually is pretty big proportionally.
     
  5. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Mr Rotary</i>
    <b>I can see your view but you still have your head stuck in the sand! Japan is very inlike the good ol US of A in the motoring world. They are a much smaller contintent with tight street/alley ways & can barely open the throttle full.

    For export reasons, Japanese manufactuer's have to adhere with strict pollution controls of not only Japan, but the rest of it's world market. Trying to cram 5 litres of 8 into tight cars is & obeying pollution laws near on impossible. The only cars that do are taxed as a luxury car.

    I will always stick to the rule of inferior cast/alloy iron block 8's of America, compared to say that of Japan's which pull a lot more HP per litre out of their's. EG the Toyota 1UZ-FE 32 valve V8 whuch pulls just 194kw out of 3968cc. Mind you not a lot of V8's are available in Japan, the other I know of is the Nissan VH-45DE (208kw 4494cc). From what I have seen, these are only mildly tuned!
    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    The issue of strict pollution laws shouldn't really be a factor. The US has some of the most strict pollution laws in the world, and yet we have many performance cars with 5 liters of displacement or more. I can see your point about wanting to lean toward smaller, compact cars due to geography. But one thing that strikes me as odd. I've read a lot in these forums about Japan having Horse Power limits (I don't know if it's true). But I've read nothing about limits on torque. If torque is unlimited and horse power has a legal cap, then I would think larger engines would be the way to go. With say, a 5 liter engine you could easily make a 280 Horse Power engine with say, 320 lbs of torque. Torque is what really "drives" your car to accellerate (no pun intended), not horse power.
    However, keeping a tiny compact design AND wanting to increase torque can be tricky. I can see why so many Japanese performance cars love their turbos. <!-- Signature -->
     
  6. The horsepower limit in Japan is not a legal limit, it is self-imposed by the car companies of Japan. From looking at upcoming sports cars, I'd say this agreement is going to be thrown out the window though.<!-- Signature -->
     
  7. The Japs tend to rely of technology rather than more cubes. Larger capacity motor's require a larger car to fit them, which brings the car into a larger tax bracket under Japanese legislation.
     
  8. yes you can keep your torque, but ultimately its the horsepower that makes a car go faster. SIMPLY PUT THIS IS TRUE. its just the equation with work power and time. you cn have a lot of power but you can accomplish 0 work. i have to give you that torque is more important BUT high end torque is much more beneficial than low end torque PLUG YOUR NUMBERS INTO THE HORSEPOWER EQUATION AND YOU"LL SEE. you want to have the maximum torque arrive near max rpm so you can max hp. if you think torque is so more goddamn important than hp than take a large semi truck and race it against an ordinary car. this is true EVEN IN AMERICAN CARS SO DONT GIVE ME THAT SHIT. on the track no one keeps their revs low only high so unless the only form of racing apparent to you is driving in straight lines for a couple of seconds you'll realize that high end torque is much more important than low end torque.

    sample equation
    suppose we generate 1000 toruqe and rev to 2000
    1000lbft x 2000rpm / 5252 equals about 380 hp (you'll have a harder time revving higher with a large displacement engine, thus the low/hp/liter count this car probalby has around 12 liters of displacement)

    280 lbft x 8000 rpm = about 428 hp (this car probably has a displacment of about 3.8 liters and the rpm figure is very accomplishable.

    now factor in that weight of the 12 liter engine its pretty bulky couldn't handle worth shit and would waste a lot of fuel. the bottom one simply is better. of course gear ratios and things like the trasnmission are very important but you must remmeber that how fast something goes isn't judged by the FORCE but by the actual amoung of WORK BEING ACCOMLISHED. if you have all the force in the world but you can budge a rock does it really matter? no. also think of it this way. if you have your low end torque being made early, you would want a lower rpm becaues otherwise everytime you shifted you wouldn't be anywhere close to your maximum torque effectiveness by generating a high end torque rating you can effectively gear the car so that everytime you shift you are constantly in 1) a high rpm range 2)the high end of the torque circle thus producing high horsepower when racing. low end torque is important in drag racing because the start is almost the most crucial point, but a real racecar will always have a high end torque rating. displacement is important but moving faster is more important.

     
  9. Ok here's a trick question..
    We have two cars which weigh exactly the same, one is chevy V8 powered and one is S2000-like. They are both moving at 100kph (60mph)
    both cars are at these RPMs making this much horsepower:

    Car 1: 250hp (making 400Nm) at 4500rpm
    Car 2: 250hp (making 200Nm) at 9000rpm

    ie, car 2 has about half the torque of car 1

    Which car will accelerate faster?
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Answer: They both will accelerate at the same rate. <IMG SRC="http://www.supercars.net/servlets/cMsg/html/emoticons/smile.gif">

    So you see torque doesn't matter, gear ratios multiply it so torque is always similar for the same HP.

    But i was wrong, the S2000 engined car will accelerate faster, just slightly because it has a higher specific torque output, and the engine and driveline has alot less inertia. So car 2 wins at being more efficient.
     
  10. Torque Issue

    Hardly any torque. This will make this car launch like crap. It needs more power
     
  11. you dun have enough balls to get this [email protected] crap? then you stick on your TA!
     
  12. well, think before you write

    for a NA motor, the torque is near 20mkg/liter, it's enormous!!! in fact, if the weight is 1200kg, no problem... the power is better than an S2000... I love it!!!
    c'est la super classe!!! même en France on n'a pas ça...<!-- Signature -->
     
  13. thats the problem with tiny engines, no torque...but im sure it makes up for the lack of torque with its 6 speed gear box,low ratio final gear, and (im guessing) light weight...but still, with that lil amount of torque, youd have to launch between a mid to high rpm range to get the same effect as a car with a larger more powerful engine that can launch at a much lower rpm range, so launching at the higher rpm WILL take its toll on the clutch...id prefer a car that had a much larger engine with much more hp and TORQUE so u dont have to wait for the engine to wind up before u get any power...the RX8s looks are not as good as the RX7s...i miss the RX7s, this RX8 looks like a bad cross between a 4 door family car/80s Corvette/Miata/S2000<!-- Signature -->
     
  14. To try and answer Krazy383 question. How can cars with less hp beat cars with more hp. Sometimes it depends on the transmission in the car. For example, I know the New Toyota Celica (best model) can beat a V-6 Camaro or Firebird(samething) from 0-60mph. Typically, (only from my prospective) Japanese car makers concentrate more on the transmissions than the Hp. American car makers tend to be the opposite. Traditionally, in the states tons of hp was the thing to do. American makers are now catching up with the times. In my opinion, American makers are really big doggers - they only care big hp cars(and trucks). Look at the top cars in the states. Corvette(like the new one), mustang(D-), Viper(okay...)..etc. Its not so much the gear ratio, but just how good the transmission is. You also have to take into account the fact that the v-6 camaro..is not a top sports car, whereas the SS Camero is. The Celica(top model)is toyotas top sports car sold in the states right now, so they can affort to maek it a little better. To me, Europeans make the best cars. They offer a lot of hp, torque, and great and I mean great transmissions. The TVR Cerbera 4.2(the what?-I know) is a good example. No corvette, supra or z car can beat it with out some serious up grades..its transmission is just that good. <!-- Signature -->
     
  15. It may be a small engine, but you have to remember it's a rotary engine. No pistons, all the movement from the combustion is done in a circular motion and most of the power is directly transfer with very energy lost to heat or collision. Pistons go in a back and forth motion and tons of energy is lost, it's simple physics! So don't be deceived by the small engine, rotary engines are known for high torque and a practically straight acceleration graph, they are nuts!
     
  16. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from jitzu7</i>
    <b>To try and answer Krazy383 question. How can cars with less hp beat cars with more hp. Sometimes it depends on the transmission in the car. For example, I know the New Toyota Celica (best model) can beat a V-6 Camaro or Firebird(samething) from 0-60mph. Typically, (only from my prospective) Japanese car makers concentrate more on the transmissions than the Hp. American car makers tend to be the opposite. Traditionally, in the states tons of hp was the thing to do. American makers are now catching up with the times. In my opinion, American makers are really big doggers - they only care big hp cars(and trucks). Look at the top cars in the states. Corvette(like the new one), mustang(D-), Viper(okay...)..etc. Its not so much the gear ratio, but just how good the transmission is. You also have to take into account the fact that the v-6 camaro..is not a top sports car, whereas the SS Camero is. The Celica(top model)is toyotas top sports car sold in the states right now, so they can affort to maek it a little better. To me, Europeans make the best cars. They offer a lot of hp, torque, and great and I mean great transmissions. The TVR Cerbera 4.2(the what?-I know) is a good example. No corvette, supra or z car can beat it with out some serious up grades..its transmission is just that good. </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->u must be referring to my post in the other topic "torque"...i already mentioned gearing...i think u were trying to answer the question i asked in the topic i just mentioned...my question was in reguards to a statement saying something like "the RX8 has a high hp/litre ratio"...and i was trying to show how the hp/l ratio is bull s***...and as far as great transmissions go try driving a Z28 with a borg/warner 6 speed transmission(which can actually handle 400+hp/torque)...have u even driven a Cerbera 4.2? or do u just have a poster of it on your wall?<!-- Signature -->
     
  17. Hehehe..yep..agreed. Just because you got a slightly lower torque, high rpms from the Rotary engine and good gear ratio will make you run just as well as the big CC people =P

    oh..btw...did you know GM makes the BMW auto trannies? =P

    DA PUN<!-- Signature -->
     
  18. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from SRB The Punisher</i>
    <b>Hehehe..yep..agreed. Just because you got a slightly lower torque, high rpms from the Rotary engine and good gear ratio will make you run just as well as the big CC people =P

    oh..btw...did you know GM makes the BMW auto trannies? =P

    DA PUN</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->true...but dont forget the down side to low gear ratios is that u will have a much lower top speed in the effort to gain acceleration, as well as less gas milage...<!-- Signature -->
     
  19. Is that transmission standard????? is 400hp standard..didn't think so
    tvr comes with a standard engine and transmission....I am not saying americans can't put good stuff together. Forgive me I gave you this impression. Also, the TVR Cebera 4.2 cost about 80,000 which makes a Z28 a good buy. To answer your question, I haven't driven a TVR because they don't sell them here. You don't have to play for the LA Lakers to know their good. In other words, I have seen this car in action and its actions speak louder then me driving it. I don't put posters of cars on my walls, by the way.

    lates<!-- Signature -->
     
  20. I'll tell you what, transamman. You should to stick to writing forums about American-made vehicles if you have such a problem with Japanese cars. What you need to do is realize that pretty much NO car made by the Japanese was designed to blast down a quarter mile. I'll agree that the torque on a rotary engine is nothing great, but think of this: I drove and almost bought a '94 RX-7 which was plagued with the torque issue as all rotaries are. However, that car got up and hauled ass! Whith the twin sequential turbos, this car creates around 255hp. This new NA RX-8 is doing almost the same thing minus the turbos. That's pretty damn impressive. The RX-7 I drove could easily beat the crap out of any stock trans-am, and simple bolt-on applications create ridiculous gains in power for 7's. The rotary engine is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and its potential is staggering to say the least. an example is that Mazda 727B. Check it out. Transamman, you only make yourself look like a turdburgular when you shoot your mouth off about how crappy Jap cars are when those same cars could run circles around your beloved American-made, over-litered, poor-supensioned heavy cars! Go write some forums in the Pontiac section.
     
  21. Hehehe..agreed.
    but then some customed trannies that I have driven were like F1 cars. Close down low from 1-3..then the rations started to spread for 4-6. Sweet how ya can blast off and keep on cruising after =)

    And yep..I agreed, if ya dun know much bout Jap Engine Tech..shaddup and go away =P
    Lol..no offense =P

    Rotaries are sweet =)

    DA PUN

    <!-- Signature -->
     
  22. #22 Krazy383, Aug 9, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from jitzu7</i>
    <b>Is that transmission standard????? is 400hp standard..didn't think so
    tvr comes with a standard engine and transmission....I am not saying americans can't put good stuff together. Forgive me I gave you this impression. Also, the TVR Cebera 4.2 cost about 80,000 which makes a Z28 a good buy. To answer your question, I haven't driven a TVR because they don't sell them here. You don't have to play for the LA Lakers to know their good. In other words, I have seen this car in action and its actions speak louder then me driving it. I don't put posters of cars on my walls, by the way.

    lates</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->actually yes it is standard...the Corvette ZO6, 405hp/400lbs torque...the same goes for the Berger Camaro, which is an option u can choose for the Camaro...check this out... http://www.gmmginc.net/ and the same 6 speed transmission thats in the Corvette is in the Camaro Z28 or SS but not the V6 Camaro...and yes the Z28 is a good buy, which is why i got 1<IMG SRC="http://www.supercarforums.com/servlets/cMsg/html/emoticons/smile.gif"><!-- Signature -->
     
  23. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from quichedem</i>
    <b>I'll tell you what, transamman. You should to stick to writing forums about American-made vehicles if you have such a problem with Japanese cars. What you need to do is realize that pretty much NO car made by the Japanese was designed to blast down a quarter mile. I'll agree that the torque on a rotary engine is nothing great, but think of this: I drove and almost bought a '94 RX-7 which was plagued with the torque issue as all rotaries are. However, that car got up and hauled ass! Whith the twin sequential turbos, this car creates around 255hp. This new NA RX-8 is doing almost the same thing minus the turbos. That's pretty damn impressive. The RX-7 I drove could easily beat the crap out of any stock trans-am, and simple bolt-on applications create ridiculous gains in power for 7's. The rotary engine is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and its potential is staggering to say the least. an example is that Mazda 727B. Check it out. Transamman, you only make yourself look like a turdburgular when you shoot your mouth off about how crappy Jap cars are when those same cars could run circles around your beloved American-made, over-litered, poor-supensioned heavy cars! Go write some forums in the Pontiac section.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->obviously youve never driven an American sports car...funny thing is an NSX has the same lateral acceleration as a Z28 or TransAm .89g, and the gas milage is the same, except u pay 3 times more for the NSX...same gas milage in the S2000, and the Z28/TransAm has better gas milage than the turbo RX7, pretty impressive for a 5.7l engine compared to a 1.3l engine? please(and way less maintenance problems, like seals/gaskets)too bad the rotary engine is very rare, cause reapir costs are astounding when things start to break...and if u want to compare sports cars from Japan and America that are in similar price ranges the Supra costs $5,000 more than a base line Corvette, except the Corvette outcorners it, out accelerates it, and gets a lil better gas milage and has way less over heating problems...shoud i mention the VR-4? try $4-5,000 more...and talk about over weight, the designers should have consulted Jenny Craig first...its got AWD and still the Corvette out accelerates it...most of the Japanese sports cars cost too much, are way under powered, too small, get bad gas milage, hydroplane over water real easy, get tossed in the wind easy, repair costs are expensive, and usually have no torque(ya have to wait for the cracker jack engine to wind up first)...ya want the most bang for you buck...buy American...now, all the Japanese cars i mentioned above i like, except the NSX(WAY overpriced Firehawk), but if youre gonna talk S&*^, expect to to get some back...<!-- Signature -->
     
  24. and guess what... i had an 87 RX7(non turbo)...yes it was pepy, but had NO TORQUE...it didnt start making any real power until high in the rpm band...it was fun hearing the engine rev up...but no fun gettin stopmed by higher hp/torque cars...im sure this RX8 is quicker than an 87 RX7, and the competition is even more so...im sure the price will be pretty stiff<!-- Signature -->
     
  25. Yo SRB the Punisher: "oh..btw...did you know GM makes the BMW auto trannies? =P"

    Is that true? WOW!! Actually it doesn't suprise me to much, I'm Pretty sure GM builds Auto Transmissions for Bentley to and BMW owns Rolls Royce so yah I could see that. I love getting new information like that. Totally screw up the American Vs. Import Analogys.<!-- Signature -->
     

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