2002 ZO6 2003 SVT Cobra (a logical comparisson)

Discussion in '2003 Ford Mustang SVT Cobra' started by BigJoeT, Aug 9, 2002.

  1. Re: 2002 ZO6 2003 SVT Cobra (a logical comparisson)

    Ummm that big piece of shit hanging out of your mouth would make me think otherwise (or is that just the bullshit you try to pass off to us...)?
     
  2. Re: 2002 ZO6 2003 SVT Cobra (a logical comparisson)

    Regular cars....but not performance cars.

    Corvette...purpose performance built, although the chassis design is a bit old.
    Viper...
    Skyline....purpose performance built THEN made into a sedan
    350Z
    S2000
    Believe it or not...the Integra
    Silvia
    Cedric
    180SX
    FTO
    etc, etc....there`s a trend here.
     
  3. Re: 2002 ZO6 2003 SVT Cobra (a logical comparisson)

    And like I said, thats a small % of cars that are purpose built (not the integra). The rest are not.
     
  4. Re: 2002 ZO6 2003 SVT Cobra (a logical comparisson)

    My point is this. America has a tendency to build a performance car that is purpose built as a sporty family car and then "supe" it up to make it into a performance car.....vs. foreign companies that often build a more expensive performance car and then cheapen a few parts to sell the lower end model as a sporty family car.

    There's a fundemental difference there....and part of the reason foreign (even base model) sports cars often outhandled domestics. The domestics weren't building frames for a performance vehicle, but a family vehicle. This is a common complaint of MT, R&T, C&D etc etc about pony car chassis (Mustang, Camaro, Firebird etc.).
     
  5. Re: 2002 ZO6 2003 SVT Cobra (a logical comparisson)

    They handle exceptionally well...compared to FORMER models.
    And the Cobra and SS aren't WAY above normal Skidpad numbers for PERFORMANCE cars. They are average.

    ...and how many times do people have to be told...skidpad numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. How many people do you know that take corners at a constant rate of acceleration in a constant radius.

    How the car ADJUSTS to these CHANGES is the definition of handling. Take a track in a GTR or a Vette...then take a track in an SS and TRY to tell me you can't feel the difference.
     
  6. Man im bored; time to ***** and moan again!!

    Hello everyone. Yeah you people should be mad at me. Okay so I was wrong. The new Cobra makes possible 400-some horsepower, considering every single piece on that car was restricted (damn government regulations). Yes, I know the Cobra has an LSD, which is fitted with 3.55 gears methinks. Okay, so now what? Oh yeah, the Cobra received an Honorable Mention for Car & Driver's Top Ten, which is exceptional. However, the point I meant to get across was that overall, this car barely outguns the Camaro Z/28 SS. Don't believe me? Check out the August 2002 issue of Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords, one of my favorite Mustang publications. Also, in a later issue, the Cobra ran a 12.01, which is impressive. Of course, the new Cobra has a great dossier, compared to the Cobras before it. Okay, sure it is a great car for $35,000, but there is still a lot to be desired. There are three things wrong with today's Mustang:

    1. Engine

    Yes, the 99V is the most powerful Mustang engine ever, considering output/litre. I heard that SVT blew up a lot of aluminum 281 4-valves to finally realise that they need an iron block, as iron has a higher heat capacity than aluminum. the problem with this engine is weight and placement. The weight of the 99V engine makes this car nose heavy, putting its weight distribution at around 57/43, which is pretty good, but not great. Also, this additional weight puts a strain on the powertrain, making the engine work harder to achieve movement. Even though it is not noticeable, it's there. Also, putting a positive displacement supercharger adds more weight, and it kills the overall reliability of the ar itself. Also, supercharged engines are hard to build around, compared to an N/A motor. The only plus of the 99V is instant throttle response and overall driveability, which makes this car a good handling car. But, there is a better way to solve the weight problem: LARGER ENGINE. Imagine an all aluminum 351 CI small block Ford sitting in place of the 99V. OHV engines have trouble moving the valves unlike OHC engines, but I think it would be more appealing to have a large displacement motor, mounted in a front midship position. Ford should take a cue from GM. GM is the dominant entity when it comes to the small block. Ford should be the king of the small blocks. The Corvette, which I heard was the Cobra's new adversary, is perfectly balanced car, plus it has a reliable N/A engine. Ford doesn't need to slap on a supercharger on their motors to get great power. What ever happened to engineering OHV small blocks? Ford lost its way after the FOX body Mustang was replaced with the new SN95. Ford should bring back an OHV small block and place that in the Mustang. N/A motors, as expressed earlier, are more reliable than forced induction motors. Plus, there are less rotating parts to deal with, making it upgradeable. The new base Mustang should come with a OHV 302 small block of about 340bhp, not a 3.8 waste of steel; children need canned soft drinks. The Mustang GT should be with a OHV 302 HO engine tuned to 390bhp, the Cobra should have a 351-variant with somewhere of 420bhp, so as to widen the gap between the GT and the Cobra, and maybe if there was another Cobra R, there would be a 429 CI V8, with possibly around 500bhp. All engines will be all aluminum. Alas, Ford keeps recycling their tired engines in what are supposed to be great cars. It's all about heritage with the Mustang, and OHC engines are not the way to go.

    2. Suspension

    Oh my God! Looks like someone grafted the suspension from a 64 1/2 Mustang on to the new one. Who's trying to cut corners? Yes, the new Cobra has a multi-link rear suspension, but what happened to the front one? There are very few cars today thatn can get away with a MacPhperson strut setup. Examples the Porsche 911, the Subaru WRX and the DC5 Honda Integra. C'mon Blue Oval. When are we going to get a new suspension? If the Mustang really wants to be a competitor with the Corvette, or even the dreaded Viper, Ford should start here at the suspension. Don't rely on the Ford GT, which by the way is a kick ass car (I had a chance to ogle at its greatness at the Houston Auto Show), because that car is way too expensive for average person. At least upgrade the suspension to an unequal length independent double-wishbone suspension front and rear. These suspensions are race proven, even though they don't hold well on the dragstrip, which seems to be the Mustang's main purpose. Once again, I blame the media for turning the Mustang into a bee-line car. The Mustang was meant to handle, and handle well. From what I've heard, the Cobra pulled 0.90g on the skidpad. Nice. But that's a Cobra. What about the regular ones? Overall, the Mustang cannot handle. This car needs a new suspension, fast. If only Ford didn't waste their money on building SUVs and minivans...

    3. Price

    Yeah I knew it would come to this. The Mustang is way too cheap, and it kills whatever credability it has for being a true sports car. this thing starts at like $16,000. What's up with that!? Basically, the V6 kills the performance of this car. The 99X GT motor is no better. If the Mustang is ever going to compete with the Corvette, they need to get their engineers to make a really good Mustang. Remember about me saying that the base Mustang should start out with a 302 V8? With that, coupled with a double wishbone suspension, a 6-speed transmission, and lightweight fiberglass materials (like fiberglass body panels and rear hatch), this car would shed a lot of pounds. Performance and price are an inverse relationship. I feel bad for the Mustang. I love this car. Unfortunately, this car is no better than the Honda Civic. I would be willing to pay the price for a great Mustang. Wouldn't you? I'm not saying the Mustang should be like $70-90,000, I want the Mustang to be available to people who have worked exceptionally hard to get what is theirs. Individualism rules. A Mustang buyer should know that he/she will be only person who has it in their garage. But, I see these things everywhere. A friend at work told me Mustangs are like assholes, everyone's got one. True, right? I think only people with an engineer's salary should be able to purchase this car. Price also gives a car credability. Remember the Corvette? Damn good car, and the price reflects it. Mustang? Bad car, because the average beer drinking schmo could afford it. I've seen Mustangs on the side of the road dead, because these average "schmos" abuse them. It is sad really. I don't want the Mustang to turn into a commuter car...oops too late. IT ALREADY IS!! The Mustang should be a rare gem that only a few people should own. People that work hard for what they want should be able to have one. I think if the Mustang were priced higher, say $40K+, it would make people want to work harder for what they want, therefore strengthening the economy. The Mustang reflects a laziness of the American public. Spend $16,000 and you can think you have a sports car. That's not the American way. It should be about working hard, and then you can have your Mustang. The ponycar should be a car that everyone wants, but not everyone can have. Jealousy is one of the seven deadly sins. If the Mustang really wants to compete with the Vette, then it needs to find new consumers, new rich consumers.

    Once again, I'm going to stand next to the Corvette Z06. The Mustang Cobra is a great car, yes, but it's the Cobra's little siblings that kill this car's great potential. Go back to the drawing board Blue Oval, and call me when you come out with a real competitive ponycar. Oh yeah Ford, START BUILDING FUNCTIONAL SPORTY INTERIORS. ELECTRIC SEATS AND A 400-WATT STEREO ARE NOT SPORTY.
     
  7. More bitching and moaning!!

    Okay here's a new engineering problem: how do you make a powerful OHV small block motor, while complying with EPA regulations? Hey, if GM can do it, why can't Ford? Reason? Ford would rather waste its money on designing another leviathan SUV, rather than engine development for its sports cars, in which it only has one: the Mustang. I heard the same BS from some Saleen rep about the Mustang not being able to have OHV small block motors because of the EPA. Wouldn't that make a new engineering problem to solve? Of course, it's not easy to develop a new engine for production. But, if Ford is willing to put in enough money for stronger engine development, they would be a powerhouse once again. Overall, all of the Ford engines suck. IT's sad really. there is no more work ethic in America. That is why we're getting beat by the Europeans and the Japanese. I just don't think it's fair that Chrysler and GM can get away with producing large V8's i.e. LS1 and that gargantuan 488 CI Viper motor. Why can't Ford get away with that? I just think it's ludicrous that Ford gets the shaft when it comes to engine design. And having tire blow-up-age and miscellaneous mechanical faliures doesn't help. Overall, FORD SUCKS. One cannot escape that fact. it's true. The Big Three designs cars that will break down in three years, prompting the consumer to buy a new car from more than likely the same company. This is where Detroit auto companies get their money. There needs to be better work ethic and better engineering. The future is already here, and the Americans are once again taking the backseat.
     
  8. Re: Man im bored; time to ***** and moan again!!

    Their are so many things wrong in this post again, that I'm not even going to waste my time on them. The only thing I will say is that the mustang was never meant to compete with the vette. It (2003 cobra) can out perform the base vette, but it wasn't built for that, it was built to be an inexspensive powerhouse.
    Also, how the hell does the v-6 model kill all mustangs potential?
    You're still a moron, no matter how long your post become.
     
  9. Re: 2002 ZO6 2003 SVT Cobra (a logical comparisson)

    i hate hondas: First we have the 2002 Corvette ZO6. Good looks, good performance, good value. Then we have the 2003 SVT Cobra. Better looks, better performance, better value(compared to a 01 cobra). I dont hate either of these cars. I love them both like my own cars. Ford stepped up big time with the 03 cobra, it will surely beat the SS, Ws6, and maybe the C5. But as for the ZO6 thats something else. The power and performance of these cars is close but they really arent on the same level. The Z06 is a sports car, its on the level with Porsches and Ferraris. The Cobra is a muscle car its much faster than before but it still remains in SS-Ws6 class. Dont compare these 2 anymore, compare the Cobra and the SS.

    I need some advice. My dad owns a 2001 SVT Cobra and he is planning on getting the 03 cobra. How can he raise the horse power from 390 to 450 with out replacing the super charger?
    If he changes the exhaust, chip, cylinder heads, headers and adds intake; what else must he do to get 450hp to match the Saleen S-281E??


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It doesn't matter who makes it, as long as its a fast car that can be made faster. Then I Like It!



    All you have to do is change the pulley, that ads a pretty good amount of HP, which everyone wants! haha, im only 15, and i want this car bad!!!!!!!!!
     
  10. Re: 2002 ZO6 2003 SVT Cobra (a logical comparisson)

    The new cobra is already putting out 425hp (it's underrated from ford), so all your dad needs is a K@N air filter to get the hp up to 450hp. That or put on a new smaller super charger pulley and he'll be running in the 11's with no problem. New exhaust will also get you around 55rwhp (headers all the way back, no cats).
     
  11. Not again...

    Okay, okay. Hmm...let's see...Oh yes I'm the idiot!? Haha!! You can come back to me when you're finished with college algebra at your local comminty college. Otherwise, you don't have an excuse to be biased. Obviously, anyone with the screen name AmericanHP is nothing but a mongoloid redneck who has nothing better to do than drink beer, watch Texas A&M football games like it's the end of your life, and promote only American cars. You must also think that the U.S. and Iraq are the only two countries in the world. Unfortunately, it's people like you who keep CNN, as well as that God-awful MTV station alive. You should hang your head in shame friend. I'm sure you're also one of those pseudo-patriots who tells everyone that if they don't like anything about our country, that they should get out. Please. Don't waste your time telling me that I'm full of shit. Obviously, your 5th grade intellect can't come up with a plausible, or even fact-filled retort. You can't judge a car by the specs, like so many people do. you actually have to see the car, in person, and drive it. I have driven a 2003 Mustang Cobra, and it wasn't that great. I was UNIMPRESSED. I have also driven a Corvette, and let me tell you that it was much better. Additionally, it's your bias is what keeps great foreign cars from being sold here in the United States. Here's a fact about Ford though. No matter what kind of Mustang they spit out, they will always be shut down by the F-Body. Overall, the F-Body always wins, even vs the 2003 Cobra. Remember even if the Camaro and Firebird are not in production, the ones that are driving our highways are out kicking the Mustang's ass in every which way. Unfortunately, with all of the facts compiled: FORD SUCKS. It's an inescapable fact. I'm not saying that GM rules or anything. Frankly, I don't give a damn who the best automaker is. Because each car that comes from each company has its own specific purpose, therefore making it unique. Well anyhoo, shut up and get over it. I'm right. You're wrong. End of conversation. If you still wanna argue some more, I suggest you get the dictionary your mother uses to fill out her welfare check form. Idiot.
     
  12. Re: Not again...

    Again you made a really long post to say what...ford sucks...you're still a moron. I told you before, no matter how long your post become you're still a moron, period.
    You didn't drive a Cobra, you didn't drive a vette, although I do think you ride the short bus to school everyday, but thats a different story kid.
    My screen name is American HP because those are the cars I love, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy other cars, Japenese, Euro's, etc...its just I enjoy v-8s and power more.
    Tell you what, when you hit puberty (that should be in about 4 years) come back and we can have a nice talk about cars, until then keep on breast feeding and playing with legos ok.
     
  13. Moron.

    You don't need cuss to get your point across, which you didn't.
     
  14. Re: Not again...
     
  15. Re: 2002 ZO6 2003 SVT Cobra (a logical comparisson)

    Here it is....another "It`s under-rated" statement. This has to be the funniest thing I ever hear from die hard V8 fans (the other being....its rated at the wheels!). Despite popular opinion, American manufacturers do not under-rate their cars. There is no purpose for doing so. There is no law against HP, and like all manufacturers, they want to make money....so where is the incentive for underrating a car?

    As a process of manufacturing, some cars put out more power than others. Which means while by some MIRACLE a car has 25 more HP than it`s rated for...you can bet there is a same model car somewhere putting out 25 LESS HP than it`s rated for. It`s all based on engineering tolerances...which are pretty tight. The fact of the matter is 95% of all American vehicles meet their ratings within 5 HP. Exceptions being prior to the mid-70`s when insurance costs were a market factor (and the famous `67 L88).

    As to gaining 25HP with an intake and 75HP with exhaust...not very likely. Exhaust and Intakes won`t get you the gains on a SC vehicle that they will on a TC vehicle for one primary reason. Restriction in the exhaust will obviously slow the turbochargers themselves....but this isn`t the case in a SC that`s belt driven rather than exhaust driven. I would doubt exhaust will get you much of anything until you port... As for the intake, Ford most likely has a pretty good one already installed....since it`s a pretty cheap method to up power. The only exception being noise and emissions worthiness...and while you don`t have to worry about the noise, you do have to worry about emissions.....
    A pulley will most definately gain you more power...but I`m not sure how strong Ford built the internals on the Cobra. We`ll find out soon enough when owners start breaking them....
     
  16. Re: Not again...

    GM (IMHO) would be far better off (if they ever make any of the fbodies again) to make the Camaro as fast as the Corvette, as they would then have a cheap & fast vehicle on their hands, and then only those who truly have a respect for performance would buy the Corvette, as those who would buy it would be wanting a car that's not only fast, but also handles quite well. The Corvette would still be better, just not any faster, that would be a good marketing plan if you ask me.
     
  17. Re: 2002 ZO6 2003 SVT Cobra (a logical comparisson)

    Every single 2003 cobra that has been put on a dyno has had well over 360rwhp, that translates to over 420hp. Ford underrated it because of them screwing up with the 99 cobra (it only made 300hp but was supposed to make 320hp). Also insurance is another big reason why they would do it. Again I don't care if you believe me, no matter what you think its true.
    Also, yes again its true, a new exhuast (everything, headers, no cats, off road x-pipe) will gain an extra 55hp from the cobra. Sorry, but it's already been tested in aleast 3 magazines. The internals are all forged and very strong, the cobra can handle a lot of boost.
    The only other car right now that underrates it power is the camaro ss. It gets around 317rwhp when dynoed, but chevy claims its only putting out 325hp, it makes alot more then chevy claims.
     
  18. Re: Not again...

    That would be a horrible plan, why would you buy a vette then if you had a car just as fast and for less money?
     
  19. Re: Not again...

    Because people buy cars for more than just to be fast, and let's face it, for the cheaper price they'd be paying for a fast car, for the higher price the real enthusiasts would be paying for a fast car that handles far better.

    Read Rustangs Resurrected's post above, he makes a very solid point about why people would buy the more expensive Corvette, and that was when the Camaro wasn't as fast, if it was as fast they'd make just as many sales for both cars.
     
  20. Re: Not again...

    But it would take away from the vettes image. People buy the vette because its considered one of the beat values right now for performance (both straight line and track). Making a cheaper car that performs just as well (even if it is just in the straight line) wouldn't help the image of the vette. The vette is the back bone of GM's performce cars, and it needs to stay on top.
     
  21. Re: Not again...

    You mean it's their flagship. I understand what you're talking about, but I disagree, sure not as many people would then buy the Vette, but a lot of people would still buy it because it would be the better all-round car, and if they offered a faster Camaro, then those who want to drag race would buy the Camaro, in some cases people who would normally buy the Mustang, would opt for the Camaro instead, thus giving GM more business.
     
  22. Re: Not again...

    Well, it doesn't give me an erection or anything<A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/wink.gif"></A> but it looks alright (I'm a bit biased against the F-body - er, that is what the most recent body style for the Camaro is referred to as right? - look, so me saying it looks alright is like you saying it looks fantastic).
     
  23. Re: Not again...

    Yeah, I've seen them before. I'm not into blue, but they are nice camaros. They also come with the z06's brakes don't they, or am I thinking of another camaro?
     
  24. #124 27GTR, Feb 10, 2003
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Re: 2002 ZO6 2003 SVT Cobra (a logical comparisson)

    Where`s your proof?

    You have dyno charts of every single 2003 Cobra?
    By the way...you missed one....
    http://www.corral.net/articles/2003Cobra/03Cobra_53

    Whether I believe you or not imperically makes no difference. You have absolutely ZERO evidence to support your ridiculous claims...once again.

    By the way...where do Magazines get their cars?....Oh...that`s right, they get them from Ford...who is trying to sell their cars. I gaurantee they had their best service technicians going over those cars to ensure they were running at over normal peak power. This is why you look around and hang around some dyno shops, you`ll find average Joe isn`t turning out those "This car is underrated" numbers.

    As for the insurance...another one of my favorite conjectures. Insurance companies don`t give a JACK SH*T what a company says their engine outputs are...know why? Their information comes from the NHTSA who has been providing insurance companies with vehicle power ratings, human survivability, and vehicle cost statistics since the mid-1970`s! Again, a LITTLE reading might enlighten you to these FACTS. Although "I don`t expect you to believe fact".

    You still show an remarkable adeption for spewing forth ridiculous facts with no basis for support, merely to "strengthen" your lack of real argument. You remind me of my five year old cousin trying to tell me why Soda is better for your body than milk.

    Rather than running away with your tail between your legs saying, "I don`t care if you believe me," just for once try to prop up your weak argument with some real information or admit your wrong. I don`t particularly really care which. At least those without the knowledge might actually learn something, instead of resorting to name calling when the argument doesn`t go their way.
     
  25. #125 American HP, Feb 11, 2003
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Re: 2002 ZO6 2003 SVT Cobra (a logical comparisson)

    This is from muscle mustangs and fast fords. Link:
    http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/features/0208mmff_deathmatch/index.html

    "Shocking to some is how quiet the Cobra is. Because of the supercharger noise, Ford had to choke off the intake and exhaust to get it to pass federal drive-by noise standards. Under full throttle acceleration, the Cobra sounds more like a jet on takeoff than a musclecar. According to SVT Engineering chief O. John Coletti, "The thing is breathing through a straw." Maybe, but it still produced 381 horsepower at the rear wheels, an indication that actual output is well over 400 at the flywheel. At cruising velocities, the Cobra was nearly luxury car quiet, which was a little disconcerting. Someone is going to sell a lot of cat-back exhaust systems."

    "Supercharger helps factory rate the 4.6 DOHC mill at 390 hp--as much as three 302s from a '76 Cobra II. In reality, blown mill makes about 425 horsepower."

    "When we heard the SVT Cobra under acceleration, it was clearly choked off. It made no intake noise whatsoever and if it's one thing we love around here it's intake noise. And free beer and pizza. But that's another story. We were obviously pleased when our Cobra twisted the rollers at Crazy Horse Racing (South Amboy, N.J.) to the tune of 381 corrected rwhp. The 374 lbs.-ft. of torque didn't disappoint us either. What blew us away was what the dyno said after we yanked the air silencer and factory filter out. Usually, the silencer is worth 3 hp and the filter maybe a couple more. But when the dyno said 394 horsepower and 375 lbs.-ft., we almost fainted--13 rwhp from a simple trick?"

    This ones for rustangs...do you see boredup how they both (camaro ss and cobra) are underrated yet...?

    "The Camaro SS nearly duplicated this effort when we strapped it to the dyno. It baselined at an impressive 316.7 hp and 340.9 lbs.-ft. of torque. Pulling the air filter out of what at first glance appears to be the world's most convoluted ram air setup netted us an extra 11.2 hp and 6.3 lbs.-ft. of torque. Remember, these gains were had with both cars stationary. Any loss in power that might accompany the addition of a high-flow filter (if any) would certainly return on the road as speed and airflow increases. Think about it--the 390 hp Cobra makes 381 at the back tires and the 325 hp SS made nearly 317 at the wheels. SVTE chief engineer John Coletti chalked it up to Ford's "very efficient driveline." Uh huh. Maybe they're just being cautious.--Jim Campisano"

    This is from http://www.hotrod.com/roadtests/79878/index.html

    "As for hard data, we proved the Cobra’s rear-wheel power on Superior Automotive’s chassis dynamometer and found 369.5 hp at 6,200 rpm and 362.2 lb-ft of torque at 4,000 rpm"

    Is that enough for you boredup...huh is it? I don't lie and make shit up. If I say it chances are its true (although everybody's wrong now and again).
     

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