Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 You're comparing what? And what Viper racecar did have +700 hp in that GT championship you're refering to? I'd like to see a Speed 12 racecar vs. Team Oreca Viper for instance...then will see if the speed 12 will "kill" the Viper...Besides the Speed 12 is about 300 - 400 kilos lighter than the Viper.
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 Regarding dyno numbers for the Speed 12, they are rubbish. I posted this elsewhere: ÂThe TVR quoted figure will be for a stripped engine (no ancillaries) run on a dyno so no transmission losses either (even so it is probably still optimistic). http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=16942&f=13&h=0 ÂRemember that the 340bhp number quoted is a manufacturers comparison number measured by an engine dyno - not a rolling road. This will be a basic stripped engine with no ancilliaries etc... http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=29322&f=8&h=0 ÂI know there have been a lot of threads on this already, but I had my Chim 450 on Motorvation Motorsport's rolling road this week, and I am getting a whopping 238 BHP at the flywheel. I know that is about what everyone else gets, but it just seems someone should put up a large banner in blackpool asking for the remaining 47 HP. ÂNo, TVR figures are quite correct, provided you remove all drivebelts, alternator, fan, sparkplugs, pistons, oil, stand with the wind coming over your left shoulder at 278 degrees from North, with one leg in the air, on a cold wet day, whilst whistling the song 'I've Got The Power' from the band called 'Snap!' This, I believe is how they achieve these mythical performance figures. Oh and by the way, you will be 47 BHP out if they tested the engine when there is an 'R' in the month! http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=17761&f=8&h=0 This type of engine output rating was used in the States up until the early Â70s. IÂm sure youÂve heard of it. Known as gross hp, vs. the current practice exercised by nearly everyone in the industry, which yields net bhp. Gross figures were on average about 20-25% higher than net figures. But thatÂs not all. One has to consider the fact that since TVR tests their engines on a bench dyno (see pic below, left), transmission, driveshaft, and halfshaft frictional losses are not factored into the equation. For TVR vehicles, IÂve seen this range anywhere from 25% loss to 37% loss, depending on the model. Now, letÂs take a look at the Cerbera Speed 12Âs claimed figure of 940 horses. Using a low gross vs. net factor of 20% plus the low end of driveline losses (25%), that means thereÂs very likely a 45% (20 + 45) discrepancy between TVRÂs gross power output and what the car would likely put out on a true rolling road dyno. ThatÂs 648 RWHP. About the same as quite a few tuned Vipers out there (many of which have actually found a home in a customerÂs garage, BTW). But forgetting the RWHP, letÂs take it back to crank hp. With the ancillaries on (per industry norm), weÂre looking at 783 bhp. Coincidentally, if you consider that the Cerbera 4.5 was only making 83% of its claimed hp output, the 940 hp figure for the Cerbera Speed 12 multiplied by 83% yields...782 bhp. Fun with numbers.
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 I will believe those hp figures for the Speed 12...when someone else *other* than Peter Wheeler proves it. FWIW, this is how TVR tests its engine: http://speed.supercars.net/cboardpics/2003-2-11/401277a.jpg You'll get a drastically different figure when you put all the ancillaries on the engine, and dyno it at the rear wheels.
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 Well, in a previous thread, I believe the 800 tt vs. McLaren F1 thread, the numbers that were posted for the Viper racecar were 700+ bhp. Here is the link, http://speed.supercars.net/cBoard?viewThread=true&fID=511&tID=39471&bottom=45 , it is the first post that has the numbers for the Viper racecar, and latter on someone gives a source to those numbers. If memory serves correct the source of those numbers was the official website of a team running a Viper racecar. If those numbers were not valid, then someone is making up numbers, either the person who posted the numbers, or their source. I would like to see a Speed 12 racecar vs. a Team Oreca Viper. The outcome of that race still woud not change the likely fact that the Speed 12 would kill the 800 tt. It is, like you said, lighter, has more power, and is likely better handling.
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 OK, let's make this simple. (est. figures) TVR Speed 12 800hp - 881 Nm 1050kg 0-60 3.5 240 mph Hennessey 800TT 800hp - 1150Nm 1450kg 0-60 2.7 235 mph Now, please tell me how a Speed 12 would "kill" the 800TT on track? Speed 12, 400 kilos lighter, yeah, but the 800TT obviously got a lot more torque to make up for that since the performance specs are better. And everbody (except for you) knows that the Viper has superior handling for a front engine sportscar. ....wonder why the Speed 12 didn't make it into production? It's a hella sweet and fast car but you just can't say that it would kill a 800TT on track, because it wouldn't, and I think you know it too, you're just one of those people who can't stand that an affordable heavy ass American low tech car is one of fastest production cars availble.
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 Still going at it I see <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 Lol, still going at it I see <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 Even if it did have 648 RWHP, consider the weight, or lack of it in the Speed 12, power to weight ratio is what makes cars accelerate.
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 Yes, still at it as usual. <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/grin.gif"></A> True, true. Power to weight plays a large role. But as seen in the TopGear Million Quid test, it doesn't always guarantee victory. The Cerbera Red Rose was carrying nearly a pound less for each hp than the Murcielago, yet there was not much between them. The Zonda had more or less an identical power to weight ratio with the Cerbera, yet was quite a bit quicker than both of them. The only way to know for sure is to get these two cars tested at the same time. And with the whereabouts of the one known Cerbera Speed 12 seemingly in question, that's unlikely to ever happen. Makes for nice bench racing, though, and going by the numbers, the Speed 12 should theoretically have the upper hand. Assuming the numbers are anywhere near what they should be for the Speed 12, that is.
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 Because TVR's President Peter Wheeler felt it was too insane for the street, mainly because they couldn't find ANY tires that could handle all the power it produced. Mr. Wheeler's opinion of the Speed 12 is well based too. He is the ideal cutomer, speed crazy. In his free time he races TVR Speed 6's, and other TVR racecars.
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 ...And why was it too insane for the street? hmmm....or maybe it wasn't....maybe there are other production front engine sports cars with better performance....oh, are we in the 800TT forum?....my bad.
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 From what I've understood, TVR never fully intended to make it a production vehicle. To build a car that could live up to that hype, with those numbers, and at that cut-rate price (relative to other supercars which also have similar or even worse specifications) would have been suicidal. Rumor has it that TVR only kept the one car around, driving it on public roads every now and then, simply to say they have a road-going version, which is one of the requirements for the British GT championship. All this talk about the car being undrivable is hogwash, IMO. The specs on just about any TVR indicates a car that would be insane to drive at the limit on the road. Point being, a proper sporting car will be driven with a proper sporting attitude, meaning moderation where necessary. Besides, TVR's long throttle pedal action is *supposed* to work as a sort of traction control, metering out the proper amount of throttle as required. If it works on lesser TVR's, there's no reason to think it wouldn't work on the highest end TVR. As an image product, and one that allowed TVR to engage in British GT racing (if not in the spirit, at least to the letter of the rules), the Cerbera Speed 12 fulfilled its job quite admirably.
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 Or it was too insane for the street. They found it best to drive with the doors open when going through town to keep the cabin cooler, remember 940+ bhp makes a lot of heat. If every car manufacturer thought the way you do we would only have fours cars too choose from. Fastest is not what every manufacturer strives for. Fastest is likely what TVR was striving for, but if the Speed 12 wasn't going to be the fastest I doubt they would use that as a reason not to build it. There are other things they were striving for like pureness of the drive, and a total lack of electronic aids. The official reason given by TVR is that it was too insane for the road. They couldn't find tires that could handle the amount of power it produced. Along with TVR's refusal to put traction control on the car(They feel if you have too use electonics to restrict power, then you shouldn't use that much power). As for Guibo's claim that a longer gas pedal is like traction control, do you know how tracton control works? It is way more complicated than just reducing the power being sent to the wheels. Traction control is the electronic control of the differentials, throtle, brakes, and several other things. Reducing the amount of gas you give it is a very small part of it. Not only that, but the driver would have to have better than F1 racecar driver skills to be able to control the gas pedal to get the peak amount of power before the tires loss grip. A F1 driver is not as good as traction control, and ne. So before you go off saying throttle control is the same thing as tractin control, learn about what traction control is.
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 "If every car manufacturer thought the way you do we would only have fours cars too choose from." And, if every car manufacturer thought the way TVR does, there really wouldn't be any fast cars, because the cars would be deemed as having to much power, and they couldn't find tires to handle it, Which is Very Wrong. "The official reason given by TVR is that it was too insane for the road. They couldn't find tires that could handle the amount of power it produced" That is Wrong. The TVR speed 12, has an estimated 940+ HP, and this is by taking two 6's and adding thier HP, so it's basically Flywheel HP number. Now, if the speed 12 was to get 90% of that power to the tires, that would be 846hp. Now, the Hennessey 1000TT has 1100hp at the flywheel and 950 of that HP gets to the wheels (go to hennesseyperformance.com, look under 1000tt, and it shows a chart of one getting 900hp on a dyno (RWHP)) Also, one of the ppl that owns a 1000tt just did a 8.93 @ 149mph 1/4mile, on street slicks. So that official reason of not finding tires to handle its' 846 RWHP, doesn't make sence, when you have a car that was tested with 950 RWHP and with its 1/4 time of 8.93, makes it the quickest street car in the world (beating the 427tt vettes best time of 8.95)
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 Of course TVR is gonna say that the Speed 12 is to insane for the road, because it sounds cool, but obviously they forgot that there are tuner companies such as Hennessey and SVS that produces even more "insane" street legal cars than the Speed 12, that don't need to drive with the doors open when going through town to keep the cabin cooler and with tires that can handle the enormous torque in those cars. It seems like I'm gonna have to do a little research myself since no one actually knows. I'm gonna call TVR right now.
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 So you say what TVR has to say is not right, then you say since no-one knows that you are going to call TVR. Make up your mind, do you want the official reason given by TVR, or some other reason that can't be proven? TVR has already said they didn't make it because it was too insane for the street, so what are youi hoping for them to say, "Well the speed 12 was too slow so we didn't make it," not going to happen.
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 I guess you didn't get it...Well, sarcasm is not always that obvious in written language.
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 Here i can basically post the exact same thing i posted earlier, which you avoided. "The official reason given by TVR is that it was too insane for the road. They couldn't find tires that could handle the amount of power it produced" That is Wrong. The TVR speed 12, has an estimated 940+ HP, and this is by taking two 6's and adding thier HP, so it's basically Flywheel HP number. Now, if the speed 12 was to get 90% of that power to the tires, that would be 846hp. Now, the Hennessey 1000TT has 1100hp at the flywheel and 950 of that HP gets to the wheels (go to hennesseyperformance.com, look under 1000tt, and it shows a chart of one getting 900hp on a dyno (RWHP)) Also, one of the ppl that owns a 1000tt just did a 8.93 @ 149mph 1/4mile, on street slicks. So that official reason of not finding tires to handle its' 846 RWHP, doesn't make sence, when you have a car that was tested with 950 RWHP and with its 1/4 time of 8.93, makes it the quickest street car in the world (beating the 427tt vettes best time of 8.95)
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 Viper1246 - 8.95 wouldn't make the Hennessey the fastest street car, only the quickest road-going production car (although I think that's what you meant).
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 I don't know of viper 1246 saying it's the fastest car. It's viper1426 (426 like hemi) and i said (read my post carefully) the 1000tt is now the Quickest car. i never said fastest. <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 bmwm3gtr200: Don't even for a second assume to know what I do or do not know about traction control. I know damn well what it is. So no need to re-hash the technicalities of it. I was merely relaying *TVR's* stance on traction control. And their stance on it is that their long-action throttle pedal works for lesser TVR's (still with insane power to weight ratio's, mind you; if you accept the factory numbers). If Red Rose Cerbera's and Tuscans don't leave the roads at alarming rates, there's no reason to assume the Cerbera Speed 12 would either.
Re: 800 tt vs. Speed 12 Viper1426: "Here i can basically post the exact same thing i posted earlier, which you avoided. "The official reason given by TVR is that it was too insane for the road. They couldn't find tires that could handle the amount of power it produced" That is Wrong. The TVR speed 12, has an estimated 940+ HP, and this is by taking two 6's and adding thier HP, so it's basically Flywheel HP number. Now, if the speed 12 was to get 90% of that power to the tires, that would be 846hp. Now, the Hennessey 1000TT has 1100hp at the flywheel and 950 of that HP gets to the wheels (go to hennesseyperformance.com, look under 1000tt, and it shows a chart of one getting 900hp on a dyno (RWHP)) Also, one of the ppl that owns a 1000tt just did a 8.93 @ 149mph 1/4mile, on street slicks. So that official reason of not finding tires to handle its' 846 RWHP, doesn't make sence, when you have a car that was tested with 950 RWHP and with its 1/4 time of 8.93, makes it the quickest street car in the world (beating the 427tt vettes best time of 8.95)" There are many of reasons why one car may hook up and another not hook up. Firstly weight, the more you have the better traction you get off the line. It is like dragging your finger across a table, the harder you push down the better your finger grips. Secondly, the power band. We do not know what kind of torque is being made by the Speed 12 at the lower end, but it likely is amazingly high. This large amount of torque is another reason why it likely can't find any tires to hook up with. Horsepower has nothing to do with wether a car burns rubber or not, torque is the rubber destroying force. So horsepower isn't a problem. If you can find a lower RPM torque figure, I can get a rough power band on this car. The 1000 tt was also running street slicks, something that is banned in many European countries. Street slick times are not recognized by many governing bodies also. The McLaren F1 with out a doubt would drop below 3.0 sec. for 0-60 if it had street slicks, and the McLaren F1 LM would be running mid 2's if it were to use street slicks. So what is the point in posting times for cars using street slicks? They aren't used to test cars by anyone, the only times you get are not recognized. Plus, there are cars that will run just as fast if they were using street slicks also. So quit saying well this car did this with street slicks, and what not. Find times for street tires! What is wrong with you people? You are trying to prove an observation wrong. TVR's observation was that it was too insane of a car for the street. The main reason for this was their problems finding tires that could handle the power it created. So it has to be taken as fact, it has been observed, documented, and can the results can be repeated. So until you can repeatidly test this car and prove that this car is not too insane for the street, and that there are street tires that hook up, shut your damn mouth. A car that while driving it will lay rubber if you gun it while in fifth gear, and you question wether or not it is too insane for the street. How the hell do you pass someone? Stick it in 6th, and give it quarter throttle, what is the point of having all that power then?