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Discussion in 'Car Comparisons' started by ajzahn, Oct 12, 2008.
atleast people that dont know shit about cars still drool over both lambo and porsche
Everybody read this quote and shut up.
Drag racing is 1% of all the fun you can have with a car.
thats the most retarded claim ive ever heard.
when was the last time you raced your car around some twisty road to see who finishes first? probably never. odds are you have explored the straight line acceleration of your car far more then its cornering abilities.
it may depends where you live, where i live there are more twisty roads than straight lines.
yes I know. however, to race through twisty roads at 10/10th to be able to see the difference of tenths of seconds is rare. there is a difference between spirited driving through twisty roads and racing full out. whereas in a striaght line seeing the difference of 0.5 seconds from say 50-100 mph is very possible.
You totally did not refute his claim at all.
He said straight line accel is only a small portion of the fun you can have with the car. You said you cant do it often/ you have never done it (many supercar owners do, in fact do trackdays regularly though). That doesnt refute the claim that cornering in a car is much more rewarding/fun. Just because you cant do it on any piece of road at any time doesnt make it any less fun when you do do it.
Anyone can mash on the gas in a car. Its about the least driver intensive skill you can use. You learn nothing about a car by hitting the go pedal.
yes but in terms of the magazine times posted, the acceleration figures are more reflective of real world performance than the track times. thats what im saying.
ive yet to hear about anyone racing their supercars on a track or street around turns and twists to see who can cover a certain distance in minimal time.
but I do understand where you are coming from in terms of handling being a huge portion of these cars' fun factors. but imo, in a RACE straight line capabilities are more relavent.
It depends on the track. On Erha Lessien or Nardo, yes, straight line capabilities are more relevant. But otherwhise, not a chance. That's why a Bugati Veyron decimates every car in a straight line, but on a twisty track it gets killed by an Enzo, Carrera GT, Viper ACR and so on.
you arent getting my point. and Im too lazy to explain.
moreover, the Veyron beat the CGT and Enzo on Top Gear's track., but thats off topic.
And isn't the GT2 faster in 100-200 kph?
if you were racing from a stand still to 200+ the GT2 would be going from 100-200 quicker by 0.1 second according to this data. but the problem is the LP640 shifts at 102 into 2nd.
so a race starting at 100 km/h, the LP would be starting in 2nd, not first.it makes quite a difference. an LP640 owner I know tested his car from 60-130 mph with a VBOX, and going from a stand still to 130+ mph, he did 60-130 in something around 8.6 seconds (the LP640 changes from 1 to 2 at 63 mph), whereas starting in 2nd gear and didnt shift at 63, he did it in 7.8 seconds.
So you would have to carefully pick your interval so that the LP-640 wouldn't lose. OK.
Are you saying that from a steady-state 60 mph roll, he was faster in 60-130 by starting in 2nd gear, rather than going through the gears 60-130 starting from a stop?
fuel consumption and price is what matthers
ahh, i forgot this test was all a digital reenactment of what could happen
yes because from a stop he had an extra shift from 60-130, from a roll he would start 60 mph in 2nd. its an egear LP640 and the shifts are sloooow. 0ver 0.3 per shift. a manual shift is about 0.2-0.25 seconds.
That still sounds pretty unlikely. Through the gears, he would have the advantage of not only being higher up in the powerband over the final thousand rpm, he'd have the advantage of *momentum*. From a steady-state 60 mph roll, he would be starting from a point of effectively zero acceleration. That right there is a disadvantage.
According to one of those online speed calculators (taking into account tire size, aspect ratio, gearing, rpm, etc), an LP640 in 2nd gear would be turning about 4850 rpm. By the Sport Auto supertest dyno chart on the LP640, it would be making around 320 hp at that point. On the other hand, in first gear, it would be at 7100 rpm, and making nearly twice as much hp, over 600 hp. That's a huge difference, particularly if you want to talk about instantaneous hp/wt. And it has still 900 rpm to go before it even hits its peak hp rating.
To be even the same time difference, that's one thing. But to be faster by the margin that you're claiming, that's even more unbelievable. That 0.3s per shift only matters if we are talking about being in the exact same point of the rev band. This is clearly not the case.
Do you have a link to that discussion?
to read the lambopower link you have to be a member
if you are its in the VBOX section in the general section.
as for your theory, stop taking it apart too much. once there is a gear change A) it takes time and B) the car is no longer accelerating.
in THESE cases (from 60 mph (96 km/h) or 100 km/h) the LP640 sees a disadvantage because it changes at 102ish
if you look at the mag data again, from 100-160 the LP is also out accelerated, but from 160-200 it out accelerates the GT2.
ill quote the owner of the LP640 later.
Is this the same guy with the TT Gallardo? The numbers for shift speed you brought up are from his TT Gallardo, and that's the 3-4 shift (where drag will play a greater role in killing momentum than at 60 mph).
In any case, this record is listed on 6speedonline for 60-130 times:
"7.85 - Acicchelli / Stock LP640 / 2 shifts"
Not taking it apart too much, the theory doesn't add up. Cars are designed to be taken to at least their peak hp for max acceleration for a reason. And remember in those 0-100-0 tests where the Enzo (vs Caterham in Autocar) or Z06 (vs GT-R in Evo) had to overcome much greater inertial forces when coming onto the brakes.
And from 80-160 kmh (the closest approximation of your initial 50-100 mph interval which you were saying is the more common everyday test of performance), the Porsche is slightly faster still, by 2/10ths. From 80-200, they are dead even and that's even with the Porsche having to complete an extra gearshift that the LP640 does not. For all intents and purposes, based on this test, there is nothing between them.
Sure, post it up. Would like to see the 'Box data for both runs (starting in 1st vs starting in 2nd).
yes the 7.85 is him.
it just is the way it is. this is the data he got from his 0-130 run:
0-10 0.30 sec
0-20 0.85 sec
0-30 1.37 sec
0-40 1.88 sec
0-50 2.40 sec
0-60 3.02 sec
0-70 4.28 sec shifted too late, bumped limiter @62.96mph, took .5 sec
0-80 5.10 sec
0-90 6.03 sec shifted a little early @91.44mph, took .3 sec
0-100 7.41 sec
0-110 8.64 sec
0-120 10.30 sec shifted way too early @119.73mph, took .2 sec
0-130 11.88 sec
60ft: 1.85 sec @ 39.34 mph
330ft: 4.88 sec @ 77.48 mph
660ft: 7.39 sec @ 99.83 mph
1320ft: 11.33 sec @ 126.61 mph
0-100 kmh: 3.17 seconds
0-160 kmh: 7.34 seconds
0-200 kmh: 10.93 seconds
even though he his the rev limiter from 1-2, he still commented that due to where the shift is from 1-2, any rolling start from 60 should be starting in 2nd so not to need an extra shift. keep in mind that once the car shifts, its not accelerating (infact on the graph he posted there you can clearly see the 0.3ish seconds that the LP isnt accelerating at all).
But that is not fun.
The graph that shows the delay is for the shift at a higher speed where drag will have greater effect.
I think with a botched shift, and 2 other shifts at less than ideal points, this does not tell us much. Unless you know for a fact he also shifted too early for his 60-130 run. Isn't the LP640 good for 131 mph in 3rd anyway? A shift at 119.73 mph would put him about 800 rpm short of peak power.
One other thing that is skewing the result from what you are saying is that in the 6speedonline discussion, he says that he actually starts from 50 mph for his "steady state" 60-130 mph runs. I think you can figure out why.
from what he said the LP640's 3rd gear does to 126ish.
well he isnt gonna start right at 60 mph from a 60-130 mph run... whether this is due to the reasoning you gave earlier or not isnt the point. the point is he wouldnt start in first at 7900 rpm at 59 mph to do a 60-something roll.
thats why even though the GT2 is quicker from 100-200, the LP has the shift at 102ish, so when you look at the 120-200 time where the shift isnt counted, the GT2 then also falls back.
Well that is contrary to Sport Auto's figures, as well as what almost any online calculator will tell you once you plug in the car's specifications.
It is very much to do with the point: with through-the-gears acceleration, the momentum the car has plays a role in how it will accelerate between shifts, particularly at lower speeds where drag is not as much an issue. Quite obviously the owner knows this and is taking advantage of the 10 mph run-up before timing really starts. To say otherwise is to cling to a notion that doesn't make any sense. It's not a "steady state from 60" roll.
7900 rpm? Where did you get that figure? Like I said, the LP640 should be at around 7100 rpm at 60 mph.
Without the data and relevant information for both runs, we can't conclude anything.
I dont care what some online #$%#n calculator says or what some magazine graph says. it is what it is. the shift slows the car's acceleration. I dont know why you are bringing drag into this isnt play a role in the context that you put it in. when the LP640 is doing a 60- something run in 1st, and needs to change gear at 63 mph, it is disengaging the clutch. the second the clutch is disengaged there is no more acceleration. at higher speeds there will be negative acceleration/deceleration but thats not the point here. the point is that the car isnt accelerating for at least 0.3 seconds, probably more, dueto the gear change.
the owner even said that that the better 60-130 run would be to start in second since the gear change is so close to 60 mph.
why do you think on 6speedonline the number of shifts is stated? because depending on your gearing and how much power there is, the driver may opt to keep the car in a higher gear to avoide a change (especially when they have enough power like some of those modded supras, and porsche that are on that list).