American Car Fans- READ

Discussion in '2003 Ford Mustang SVT Cobra' started by SeansVette, Sep 10, 2002.

  1. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    Except for the fact that the Focus RS (which actually has 215hp and 229 lb/ft of torque) is turbocharged, and oops, wow it has very close to the same horsepower(a little less in fact) as the Civic Type-R (j-spec) which has the same size engine as the RS but is NORMALLY ASPIRATED, sure the RS is a bit faster but again it is TURBOCHARGED, but wait a minute, look at the price, guess what? it's now in a higher class than the Type-R (same class as the Subaru Impreza WRX in fact, which in that class also kicks its arse), oh man, I guess it's not fair to compare the two after all. Meanwhile, the Type-R IS in the same class as the SVT which means it is fair to compare the two <A BORDER="0" HREF=""><IMG BORDER="0" SRC=""></A>.

    As for the WRC, the comparison between manufacturers is similar proportionately to that of the production cars, and guess what? Ford has spent the most of all the manufacturers in the WRC each year, which not only means they have spent more on modifications, but also on drivers (note: Colin Mcrae, and Carlos Sainz will no longer be driving for Ford next year, they got sick of Ford, and took Citroen's offer), which brings me to the fact that Ford is actually doing better than they would if they were spending an equivalent amount to the other manufacturers in the championship.

    Now, the engines are actually pretty much the same, they have really only been modified in the following ways: higher temperature resistance, they have a much higher performance exhaust system on them, they have been re-programmed for a higher air/fuel ratio, and they have turbochargers added to them, other than that they're pretty much stock. Meaning that the Peugeot 206 1.6 liter engine is capable of puttin out more torque than the Focus's 2.0 and (as much as I hate to say it) the Impreza's 2.5 after those few modifications. A person could easily legally modify their car to have the same output as the WRC spec version. The only body changes are the internal roll cage (they're all internal, so don't even try to tell me that it's a major modification, cause it isn't), the suspension system, and the skid plate on the bottom. Other than that, they're pretty much the stock.

    Here's an excellent example of the Focus's poor handling: In the rally of Tour de Corse (which is a tarmac rally) Ford was so desperate to lower the center of gravity in the Focus that they lowered Colin McRae's co-driver Nicky Grist right to the floor, they bolted his seat directly to the floor, no mounts or anything, his seat was so low, the highest he could see was the windshield wipers, he could not see out the windshield, so he had to read the pace-notes by feel alone, and despite these drastic measures, Ford still did quite poorly in the rally. It was very humourous<A BORDER="0" HREF=""><IMG BORDER="0" SRC=""></A>
  2. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    I'll call you a moron whenever I want to, truth hurts. Sorry but your post keep getting worse and worse, I almost feel dumber after reading this one.

    "As I said "The Neon R/T is a good car" however the fact that the car required a large engine AND turbocharger just to put out that kind of performance just goes to show how weak the engine is"
    What are you talking about? Large engine, last time I checked a 2.5 liter 4 cylinder was not that big (I'm not sure though if thats even the actual size of the neons engine though). I makes 255lb ft of torque, thats impressive, and while I don't know much about Peugeot's I really doudt that they are getting that kind of torque from a 1.6 liter, actually I know that they are not. The best small engine in the eyes of many (the one in the s2000) only makes 150lb ft of torque.

    "The cars in the WRC are actually very close to the Production cars, the only real differences are Turbo chargers, safety modifications, weight reduction, suspension systems, the addition of AWD to some cars (others already have AWD systems) and skid plates, the weight distribution remains the same, and the ratio of performance between manufacturers is similar to the production models."
    Again wtf are you talking about? Close to prodction? Any car with that many mods is not close to production sunshine! They almost rebuilt the entire car, and yet somehow you think that they are almost production, thats why I call you names like "moron".
    Their are many other faults in your post, ones that do not even mereit mention. You go back to kindergarden and learn something now...
    Oh one more thing though, the civic si only has 10hp less than the svt focus, so I really doudt that its getting overpowered by the focus on the track, the focus is just a better handling car. Do some research next time.

  3. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    i don't know what to say, rally cars are again no where close to production car. i mean the cars have wider track allwheel drive they have certain engine size restriction, and no you can't just take a engine and make it get that much power out with out blowing the hole thing. there is really no similarity about wrc cars and road cars in mechanical perspective. also right now 206 has the best car out true and it has spent huge money to get the car next year the next jen wrx should give the 206 the best competition with their new car, and ford should come in about a midd next year with their car. so there is always a team that has to be the best. anyway ford has the highest paid driver if i am correct so yah they spent alot of money and look after i believe 3years of practically same car they are still second in championship.
  4. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    I've checked other posts by you and you seem to call anyone who says something negative about American cars a moron, be they right or wrong. Moron or not, it is becoming apparent you know very little about the WRC.

    2500cc IS large for the segment Dodge is attempting to meet (they are trying to find loopholes to get into the same class as the Civic Si, while still charging $10,000 more, they just want it to look good for its class), and the size is actually 2429cc, and yes, the performance is impressive, you do not have to keep repeating yourself, YES I KNOW THE PERFORMANCE IS IMPRESSIVE (particularly for Dodge) IT'S WHATS REQUIRED TO GET TO THAT LEVEL OF PERFORMANCE THAT ISN'T IMPRESSIVE. And the 206 is actually getting better torque (per size) than "that kind of torque" 190 lb/ft. If Dodge wanted to get that kind of torque out of it, and really impress people at the same time by having it N.A. why didn't they just put a diesel engine into it - since they seem to be so good with diesel engines. The engine in the S2000 is known for its horsepower, NOT its torque, though the torque isn't bad.

    Do yourself a favour: go open Webster's Dictionary and look up the definition of PROPORTION that's P-R-O-P-O-R-T-I-O-N, and read it aloud (since you seem to be so illiterate - let me break it down for you - I-L-L-I-T-E-R-A-T-E).

    Now that you know what proportion means, recall that I said earlier that the different manufacturers perform PROPORTIONATELY to the production versions, the cars have all had the same Modifications (except for the addition of AWD to the 206 and the Focus), done to them, and Ford in fact has even spent more per year than any other manufacturer - so you'd think it should at least perform just as well...but it doesn't. (and unlike NASCAR, the different cars actually perform differently from each other).

    To quote one Review comparing the two cars "...the Honda is a boring design fully transformed by some clever tweaks. In contrast, the Focus is a sharp-looking design without proper beef-up. More embarrassing is that Ford also offers ST170 in the form of 5-door and even Estate, ruining its driver-focused image."

    For one thing the svt focus also has more torque than the Civic Si, it also has a close ratio six-speed gearbox (The one used on the Mini actually, meaning BMW designed and built it) both resulting in quicker 0-100km/h (0-60mph) times in comparison to the Civic Si which only has a five-speed gearbox, resulting in slower overall acceleration.

    So yes it is very reasonable to say that the focus won by quicker overall acceleration, not handling, particularly when you consider the fact that the Civic has "Limited slip differential" (not to mention all the other handling advantages mentioned earlier) while the svt does not.

    those are "faults" based on your own opinion, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's not true, you keep that imagination working.

    "Do some research next time." practice what you preach...oh, and I have done considerable research in the past, and continue to do so, as there is always something new to learn.

    "Kindergarten" is actually me on my way to a masters degree in Environmental Sciences, on a full scholarship.

    Now you go polish your gun collection, cause I'm sure the Iraqi's are going to nuke the US any minute <A BORDER="0" HREF=""><IMG BORDER="0" SRC=""></A>

    below are clips showing just a few examples of the heavy front end in the focus
  5. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    They have much less modifications than any other form of racing (except perhaps for low level GT class)

    The only real engine mods are the Turbocharger, exhaust system and modifications to boost heat resistance, they do start out with stock engines though, oh yeah they do have restrictors on them to prevent them from having above 300hp.

    Ford actually has three of the four highest paid drivers in the championship, I think the drivers are making up for the inadequacies of the car though.

    Yeah, I think next year the top three competitors are going to be Subaru (particularly with Petter Soldberg showing so much promise, and also with the refined Impreza), Peugeot, and Citroen. Ford is going to take the year to make improvements on the Focus, so they are not going to be racing with very highly paid drivers. Mitsu is making no major changes, Hyundai...well they're Hyundai nuff' said, and Skoda is possibly introducing a new car but I don't think they'll improve much.

    I have to admit, it is kinda cool that the top three manufacturers are Japanese, European, and American (well so most of it is developed by fords European division, but it's still kinda cool).
  6. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    Ok lets start out with the has less torque. The race track doesn't give a shit if the car makes 100lb ft of torque in a 1 liter engine, or 500lb ft of torque in a 8.7 liter engine, which ever makes more overall is the one with better times on the track.
    So with that in mind the neon would still be faster, thus making its poor design actually better (since its faster, which is what is was designed for). So lets see, 190lb-ft vs 255lb ft, that’s a big difference, a big difference. That’s why they used a larger 4 cylinder. Torque means a lot on the road and the track, something you don't seem to understand.
    Next, I know that all the cars in the wrc perform differently, what you can't or just don't want to understand is that the cars are as far away from being stock as nascars vehicles are. THEY ARE NO WHERE CLOSE TO BEING STOCK NO MATTER WHAT YOU WANT TO THINK. And they in no way represent what their manufactories can do. Since almost no piece of the car is stock anymore how can you say the focus is bad, or any car in the wrc is a bad car in real life, you can't. And while I don't watch the wrc too much, from my understanding the focus is doing pretty damn well (second I think).
    Next the Focus has beaten cars with more HP around a track, so again their goes you "M-O-R-O-N-I-C" view on that. The focus is a great handling car, and for whatever reason why you don't want to believe that, it still doesn't change the facts.
    And last, I really don't care if you are going to become a janitor or have a full scholarship to Harvard, if your views are wrong or biased you'll get called on it. Oh by the way I'm not to impressed, wow a degree in Environmental Sciences, yawn...
  7. #57 Ford rulez, Nov 16, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Re: American Car Fans- READ

    Man r u ever dense, you completely misunderstood every part of my post. NO SHIT the NEON will be faster, again IT IS A GOOD CAR, IT'S WHAT WAS REQUIRED TO GET THERE THAT IS THE POOR DESIGN. IT'S A BETTER CAR THAN THE 206(as far as how fast it is) HOWEVER THE 206 IS BETTER DESIGNED. Let me spell it out for you, if Dodge had used the same size engine and left it Normally aspirated, then it would not put out nearly as much torque, that's something you don't seem to understand.

    And by the way, it's what has a better power/weight ratio, not just what has more torque or power.

    You still don't seem to understand what PROPORTIONATELY means. And the engines are basically stock (ie: they are not specially designed racing engines, they are engines used on production vehicles), the weight distribution is stock, and the only performance changes are suspension, exhaust system, higher heat resistance, Turbocharger, and brakes. While the only thing resembling the production vehicles in NASCAR is the body. WRC cars are fully street legal and far less modified than you think. And they fully represent what the manufacturers can do, and most of the car IS STOCK, why can't you understand that (and before you tell me they are not, I would believe that Nicky Grist is far more qualified to make that judgement call than you). True, Ford is in second, but if you knew anything about the WRC you'd know that the drivers are making up for the inadequacies of the car, remember, they have spent almost double what any other manufacturer has on drivers.

    But seeing as you're not going to accept that, lets look at SCCA Group-N in which the only changes are the ones required, ie: roll cage, skid plate, suspension and little else. Subaru, Hyundai, and Mitsu are in the top three, Ford is almost non-existent, so as they get closer to stock, they do even worse.

    What car with more power has the Focus beaten around the track? If it's the Mustang I don't really care. And before we go any further, as I tried to say earlier, the Focus does handle well, just not very good in comparison to others in its class. The reason I say the Focus does not handle well is the fact that there have been numerous consumer problems with brand new Focuses having very unstable steering on the highway, going in a straight line, the Focus itself does not travel straight. And then there's the fact that the center of gravity is far too high, just look at how much body roll it gets incomparison to other cars in its class. The lack of a limited slip differential, the wheelbase vs. the body dimensions, the overall weight, the weight distribution (more than 70% of the weight is in the front end). There are other facts but I don't want to spend the time.

    Harvard is law, and your views are far more biased and wrong than mine will ever be, just look at your username AmericanHp hmmmmm........that doesn't seem misinformed and biased at all......really. I haven't been called on anything yet so there goes your "theory". I couldn't care less if you thought it was humurous, I just wanted to point out that I'm not just some little grommet (or "rycer" as you so eloquently put it) who doesn't know what he's talking about. Oh, and no race track would exist without some form of Environmental Planning, hell, nothing gets developed without a large degree of Environmental Planning, not even that Landfill that gets placed in your back yard.

    Check out these links on reviews of both Civic and Focus (more reliability than performance reviews),Focus/PRD_22208_1531crx.aspx,Civic/PRD_258_1531crx.aspx

    note the overall ratings

    and the fact that the longer the people have owned the Focus, the worse the rating...
  8. Re: American Car Fans- READ

  9. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    Gee, that didn't seem at all racist...nope, not one little bit <A BORDER="0" HREF=""><IMG BORDER="0" SRC=""></A>
  10. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    Let me bring your attention to sentence # 8 - "suppose(d) to be different than us Americans......" isn't possessive.
  11. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    The only dense person here is you. You don't seem to understand the in the end, no matter how the power is made, no matter if its NA, SC, or turbo, which ever car has more power (weight also figures into this) will win. Design in your mind is making something NA somewhat fast, design in dodges mind was making something fast period, and they did just that. They saved the customer money, and gave them a fast car. That’s a good design in my book. The better design here is the faster car.
    Next and for the last time (I won't post this again since your to stupid to understand this, even though you are a "college" kid), the cars in the WRC are no where even close to being stock. The engine is overhauled, the interior is stripped, the suspension is different, the overall car is no longer what it once was, thus making it no were close to stock, how the hell do you not understand this? Just because they might use the same block from the stock cars they are based off of does not make them stock.
    Next, I don't care what people think of the focus, its beaten many cars in its category around a race track, enough said. It's faster and has beaten a GTI and an RSX. The GTI makes 150hp, the RSX makes something like 200hp.
    Last I never said you were a r1cer. I called you a moron, maybe an idiot, but I don't remember calling you a r1cer, you never said what you drive and what you have done to it, so why would I call you that?
  12. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    By "Dense" I mean that you have stubbornly insisted to misunderstand what I wrote above.

    No, design in my mind is is making something faster than something else without going to extremes, with all this beef up the Neon should be almost as fast as the NSX, anyone could have put out that kind of torque and power with JUST a 2.5 liter engine, nix the Turbo. to make it as cheap, they should have been able to do it with a 2.0 liter engine and Turbo. The better designed car is the Type-R, the better car (faster anyway) is the neon, do you see what I'm getting at here? And the Neon SRT-4 is $10,000 more than the Type-R and therefore they did not save the customer money.

    Since I seem too stupid to understand this I guess that I don't fully understand that the cars are not anywhere near stock despite what I stated earlier, why can't you understand that the cars are still street legal, the weight distribution is the same the car is just lighter, the engine is still the same performance just more durable and has a turbo added and a higher flow Exhaust. Why can you not understand that I am agreeing that the cars are no where near stock, they are closer to stock than you think, but they are no where near stock.

    Before I get to the below, I have to ask: do you claim to know more about the WRC than Nicky Grist? He himself stated that the cars could be very easily modified to perform the same as the ones in the WRC, just not meet some of the restrictions. The reason the cars are worth so much (approx. $500,000) is because they have so many restrictions to meet.

    THE CARS PERFORM THE SAME PROPORTIONATELY BETWEEN MANUFACTURERS TO WHAT THE PERFORMANCE BETWEEN MANUFACTURERS IS BETWEEN THE STOCK VERSIONS. Do you not know what this means???? It means that the Cars are much higher performance than the stock versions, but if you take a STOCK Impreza and compare it to a STOCK focus, the Impreza will outperform the focus the same as it does in the WRC. If you Turbocharge a STOCK 206 and a STOCK focus the 206 will outperform the focus the same as it does in the WRC. It does not mean that either will be as fast as in the WRC, what it means is that the difference between the performance of the two will be the same. DO U UNDERSTAND THIS???

    Those reviews show how unreliable the focus is, most young people want a RELIABLE car that performs well, which is why a lot of young people will opt for a Civic over a focus, And why even the Civic SI is still a better car, even due to the not-as-good focus. The focus is not faster than the GTI in Europe which makes well over 200 hp, and is Certainly not faster than an RSX Type-R. I find it hard to believe that the Focus could beat the RSX around a track consistently, perhaps in a few road tests, but not many, where and when? The RSX puts out 220hp by the way.

    When I said " you so eloquently put it..." I was referring to your type of "little power/Big displacement" type of people who posted earlier in this topic, yes it was a stereotype, but judging by your username, it applies to you as well. I am an Idiot, not ashamed to admit it as it relates in no way to anyone's intellect, but only due to impulsivity.

    And I already said that I drive a '90 Civic SI, but have only increased the flow of the exhaust (no there's no "fart cannon" exhaust on it), and added an off-road suspension, and skid plate, and have used it for rally racing quite effectively. Judging from your responses I assumed that you had the "rycer" impression.
  13. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    I despise rally races, they are so... dirty. I Like to keep my cars in good condition.
    Dont reply to me, I wont be coming back to this thread, I don't even know how it got off topic in the first place.
  14. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    Rally racing, aside from GT style racing is the only true test of all of a cars capabilities, and the driver's capabilities. My original reply was on topic as I was correcting SeansVette on a few incosistencies, somepeople seem to know little of the "Import craze" and thus argued a few of my points, debate got way off topic from there.

    The whole topic is #@$%ed now, and I would like to quit posting, but have to clarify things for people first, once they understand a few things, I'm outta here.
  15. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    The better designed car is the Type-R, the better car (faster anyway) is the neon, do you see what I'm getting at here? And the Neon SRT-4 is $10,000 more than the Type-R and therefore they did not save the customer money."
    So the Type R is only $8,000 huh...damn I'm going to get one then...oh what moron that can't be right. The new Neon is going to be under $20,000, most likely around $18,000, so I really doubt that the Type R is $10,000 cheaper. So again, the design for the Neon is better, because it’s cheaper and faster. And somehow I really doubt that their are any (please prove me wrong) 2.5 or even 2.0liter engines out there NA that have 255lb ft of torque or more.

    "the weight distribution is the same the car is just lighter, the engine is still the same performance just more durable and has a turbo added and a higher flow Exhaust."
    Are you retarded, you just proved yourself wrong. You stated that the out put of the engines is almost the same as stock...yet they have an added turbo and high flow exhaust...that’s pretty damn far from the stock out put.
    Next, the American GTI (highest trim level) makes 180hp. The RSX here makes 200hp. I don't know were you live, but its must be nice since to prove your "point" all the cars you mention have 20hp+.
    Last, idiot does refer to ones intelligence. Long time before people were politically correct the term idiot was used to describe mentally challenged people, as was the word moron. Your car does not sound like r!ce, since you both race it and don't have it "modded" with a huge wing and decals.
  16. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    Ummm...last price quote I saw put the Neon Srt-4 at $29,000 (well ok, so that would only make it $6,000 more than the Type-R and the SI), though that quote is fairly old and thus could be inaccurate. You really don't understand the difference between design quality of a car vs. overall performance/price do you? About the only aspect of the neon you could say is better design is the design of the package they are offering the consumer (ie: price vs. performance) not the design of the car itself, perhaps that's what you're thinking, but please don't make the mistake of interchanging one for the other. I can't think of any offhand but I know I've seen a few 2500cc engines that put out that much torque, very low on hp though, but who said anything about 2000cc engines?

    I did not prove myself wrong, I said the performance of the engines is virtually stock, the Turbo and Exhaust boost the performance of the engine, the engine itself produces the same performance, a person could easily take a production car, Turbo charge it, add an Exhaust, and do a little re-programming to get the same kind of output from their engines.

    I may have gotten the precise model wrong but there is a production version of the Golf in Europe that outperforms the Focus as far as acceleration goes. I live in good ol' Canad of 'A' and you can believe the specs on this website, or you can believe the performance specs of the REAL RSX type-S (or is it the Type-R?, both models are manufactured, not sure which is the higher performance) which show the hp is either 220bhp or 230bhp (depending whether you want to go by Honda's specs or that of the vast majority of European magazines). I have not "fixed" the actual performance specs of ANY vehicle just to "prove a point", they are only different from specs you know, this site and SCC magazine are not the only sources of automobile information. My "point" isn't that the Civic SI is higher performance than the focus (cause it's not), my "point" is that Honda makes a higher performance car in the same class. Which shows how wrong SeansVette was about people just preferring Honda Civics because they're "cool" as he puts it. Actually the point that people want RELIABLE performance rather than just performance is the point that actually shows him wrong.

    Idiot pretty much means foolish which pretty much refers to people who do stupid things, but aren't actually stupid, in other words people who do stupid things before they think about what they are doing, which does not infer a lack of intellect, but rather a lack of self control and/or common sense - take your pick.
  17. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    This is the last post I am posting to you, you have no clue and never will I guess.
    "I did not prove myself wrong, I said the performance of the engines is virtually stock, the Turbo and Exhaust boost the performance of the engine, the engine itself produces the same performance, a person could easily take a production car, Turbo charge it, add an Exhaust, and do a little re-programming to get the same kind of output from their engines."
    WTF are you talking about? THE ENGINES PRODUCE ALOT MORE HP THAN THEY DO IN STOCK FORM, THUS MAKING THEN NO WERE CLOSE TO STOCK. They are not close to stock, nor do they produce near stock perfomance figures. Nuff said.

    "Ummm...last price quote I saw put the Neon Srt-4 at $29,000 (well ok, so that would only make it $6,000 more than the Type-R and the SI), though that quote is fairly old and thus could be inaccurate."
    The price as it has always been is around $18-19,000. They have said (dodge) many, many times that it will be the fastest car for under $20,000. How the hell could they say that if the price was well over $25,000? Its a neon, they know that, and they would never ask that much for one. The neon will be less money than the Civic SI, and will be alot faster. If you design something to be fast and cheap (civic) and another company does the same only making their vehicle faster and cheaper than yours, they have designed the better car. Sure overall design and quality the neon might lose, but thats not what I'm talking about.

    " Which shows how wrong SeansVette was about people just preferring Honda Civics because they're "cool" as he puts it. Actually the point that people want RELIABLE performance rather than just performance is the point that actually shows him wrong."
    Wrong again. Modding out an import is a fad right now, and the base civic is the car most used for this. Why... because its an import and because its cheap. No other reasons. Their are people that don't fit into this mold (many as a matter of fact), but not nearly as many as do what I just said. SeansVette hit it right on the nail. They don't always buy the imports for perfomance, or even for the reliablity, they buy them to fit into a crowd, to be cool. I'm not saying that imports are bad or anything like that (even though you think my name makes me biased I am not), but the truth is the truth. Also, you said they want reliable performance, yet most kids who buy a civic buy the base model making 117hp (I think, might be wrong), not much perfomance there huh?

    "I may have gotten the precise model wrong but there is a production version of the Golf in Europe that outperforms the Focus as far as acceleration goes. I live in good ol' Canad of 'A' and you can believe the specs on this website, or you can believe the performance specs of the REAL RSX type-S (or is it the Type-R?, both models are manufactured, not sure which is the higher performance) which show the hp is either 220bhp or 230bhp"
    Sorry, but again you are wrong. Here in America and I'm sure its the same in Canda, the only version of the RSX is called the RSX type-s, not Type R. That means the highest HP figrue you will see for an RSX is 200hp. Qoute from Motot Trend,
    "The version you want is the hot RSX Type-S, which will sticker for about $24,000 and feature a 200-hp version of the 2.0L I-4." Thas right from the Motor Trend, I'm sure you will believe them, won't you? And guess what, even with 30hp more it can't beat a focus around a track, sad.
  18. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    The WRC spec Subaru Impreza only has 20 more Horsepower and 80 more lb ft. torque than the 2001 WRX STI on THIS VERY SITE, do you seriously think that is enough to askew the performance so that it doesn't resemble the Stock performance? And comparing that kind of modification to the level of modifications in the NASCAR is just plain retarded. Nuff said :<A BORDER="0" HREF=""><IMG BORDER="0" SRC=""></A>

    Thus they have designed the better package, not the better car. And design and quality IS what I was talking about. Originally it was going to be about $28,000 (CDN) while the Civic SI is $23,000 (CDN), do the math.

    "Why... because its an import and because its cheap. No other reasons" You just agreed that SeansVette was wrong (or at least in this part). The truth is: "rycers" aren't as abundant as you people seem to think, and "rycers" piss us people (those who like Honda for quality) off more than they ever will piss you or SeansVette off.

    Most kids buy what they can afford, whether that's a '93 or newer SI that produces from 130 bhp to 180 bhp, or a CX that produces from 96 - 130 bhp (1987 - 2002) it's still not bad performance on a car that weight, considering the only higher performance options for that price would be a car that is impractical or would fall apart within the year. Besides, at 130 hp (with Dynomax perf. exhaust system on it) I can still "chirp" the tires in 4th gear when accelerating in my 1990 Civic SI, for some people that's all the performance they'll ever need (not enough for me, but it was the best vehicle I could go for given my price range, and it's enough for the time being, particularly considering I can still beat people in much faster cars)

    The Highest performance version in your country is of no consequence, the highest performance version available is, now that you've cleared up my confusion over the model it's the Type-R that has 220 bhp or 230bhp if it's the Type-R j-spec. Motor Trend isn't a very reliable source sometimes, but in this instance they're right, the RSX being the best model in North America is the model to go for. Sadly, even though it goes faster than the Civic SI, it suffers in the handling department, I dunno if the focus handles better, speed is likely about the same, but where did you see the focus beat the RSX in a track test?
  19. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    This site is wrong, alot, do not use their numbers at all. The wrx makes 227hp, not sure about the torque though.
    The SRT-4 is going to be (and always was going to be) $18-19,000, period. It was never going to be anything else. Thats American dollars. The Civic SI is around $19,000.
    R!cers are as abundent as I and others think. All I need to do is drive to around for about 10 minutes and I will see at least 5 kids in r!ced out cars. Also r!ce can and does include domestic cars. Its not just an import thing.
    Yes people do buy what they can afford, but given the chance a 16 year old will take an import over an equel priced domestic for the only reason being that its an import. They don't consider anything else, they just want to be part of the fad. Thats what I said and thats what SeansVette was saying.
    I got the info on the focus beating the RSX and GTI in a magizine called "Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords". Now before you go saying, "well that name is biased and of course the focus would win", they are not biased, in any way. They will call it as it is, whether or not the ford product wins or loses. In this case the focus won.
  20. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    OMFG, yes the site is wrong often, I was just using this site as an example seeing as it's right here and you should have noticed the specs, but when I say the WRX STI I MEAN THE WRX STI!!! Which puts out 280 bhp, and the torque rating is about right (within about 20 lb ft). The WRX does only put out 227 hp, but again, you misunderstood which model I was talking about, and the WRX is not even a part of this as the STI is the car used for the WRC. The focus rs (which is the one used for the WRC spec car) also has very close performance figures to the WRC spec version. Same as the Lancer EVO.

    See, that's exactly where the misunderstanding lies, the SRT-4 was originally going to be sold in CANADA for $28,000 cdn., the price has now been lowered to $20,000 cdn. (likely to beat the price of the Civic SI) - considerably less than the $18,000 Am. tag in the states (add about 40% to u.s. prices to see what it would work out to in cdn. dollars). Interestingly, the SI is sold for the same price in the states in american dollars as it is sold for in Canada in Canadian dollars (odd huh?).

    Some 16 yr. olds will buy an import in part because they are "cool", but often those same 16yr. olds will also buy an import at the coaxing of their parents because the Imports have better overall reliability ratings (look at me, I almost bought a '93 Corolla for a good price because my parents kept suggesting that I should, then I realized that I wanted something that provides the reliability and practicality of a mid 90's Toyota, but has decent performance as well, so I opted for a Civic SI instead).

    The overall quality imports are renowned for often plays a part in those kid's decision. I mean, if Honda Civics had the overall reliability equivalent to a Hyundai Pony, do you really think so many kids would still buy Civics? Perhaps a few people would buy them, but not nearly so many. So what you guys are saying is true to a degree, but I think a lot of it is fueled by opinion and emotion, and therefore both inaccurate and blown way out of proportion.

    I would not say that they would be biased at all. The key thing "In this case..." meaning that in that one test the focus won. I have seen a number of road tests of the two, the focus won many, but the RSX won the majority, and that is the point.
  21. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    A lot of people buy used Civics because American hatchbacks and other subcompacts from the 90s that are sucked. Only recently has the US been putting out subcompacts that are equivalent to and often beat the japs (Focus).

    Another reason is that most kids are followers. That would explain the popularity of and tendency among almost all children that I see to spike their hair, without knowing where that style of hair came from, etc.
    I recently said to a friend of mine, who isn't into cars that I drove the '02 Mustang GT 5spd., and he said "cool, but it's american." That unfortunately is indicative of the attitude of most kids nowadays. Once upon a time, a few years ago perhaps, musclecars weren't that sophisticated, and they didn't have the physical presence that their 60's ancestors had. Only recently has the Mustang got an independent rear suspension, that is supposed to help with its "skittish" rear end. The '04 mustang will be all-new. I'm quite sure that the Camaro and Firebird will come back too, hopefully in an all-new much improved iteration.

    This site was the one that converted me from the "dark side" and made me resolve to get a musclecar as soon as I got the funds. Not a new one, mind you, but a '67 Camaro, 67-8 Mustang Fastback, or a 67-70 Charger.

    Imports are so common nowadays, and close to where I live, Porsches, and Ferraris are not that rare either. Not that I'm getting a car to get attention, but for me, the 67 Camaro I saw recently gave me a lot more satisfaction than the innumerable Diablos, and 360s I see.

    I think that in popular culture too, musclecars are "coming back" (as if they ever went away).

    Witness the recent crop of films: Blade I & II (Charger?) , Fast and Furious (ditto), Fastlane (Camaro, Challenger, Mustang)(interestingly enuff, absolutely NOTHING japanese in the "candy store," wonder why...), Gone in 60 seconds (Shelby Mustang) et al.

    PS: Oh yeah, AmericanHP and password, stop fighting, or at least stop calling each other "moron" and "idiot" and then giving the history and def'ns of those words. Take your fight elsewhere. AmericanHP, just curious, you insult password's environmental science degree, what degree do you have? (if you don't have one, that's fine). Usually, you seem such a cool guy who doesn't resort to name-calling except to absolute retards; password seems like a good guy, your insults seem waste on him. Perhaps everyone should band together and get 94Formula banned or something.

  22. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    Choose not to believe me if you wish, but In the little private (no anymore I guess) conspiracy of mine, it was the Middle East that destroyed musclecars back in 1974. When they decided not to send us oil at the time (hence the oil crisis) people coudn't afford the gas guzzling monsters that were known as Musclecars. So what did people do? They went after cheap imports which were 'good' on gas and the beginning of the Import invasion began. Now with terrifyingly retarded movies like Fast and the Furious, which our youth are being consumed by. These movies poinson our children's brains, KEEP THEM AWAY FROM THEM. It's like religion, it focuses on feeding us lies and influencing our minds and sub-conscious.
    Show them wholsome movies like Death Race 2000 (Heh, Just Kidding). I mean how many children have sat sown and watched Dukes of Hazzard or even a show like Adam-12? Now thats when TV was TV.
  23. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    You conveniently forget that F&F had "Dee-troit muscle" in the form of a Charger. I liked the film. I like the sound of an engine revving, no matter what its configuration.

    As for your religion comment, you could say that about universities, schools, the government, and society in general (feeds you lies, brainwashes etc.).

  24. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    I didn't really insult his Degree, I just said that I don't care about it in the argument that we were having. Having an environmental degree means nothing really when talking performance, that’s all.
    I resulted in name calling...well I don't know why really, I'm not going to go and reread all of our post to find out.
    Last I have a Bachelors Degree in Graphic Design.

    Now back to the to the original post. I agree with you about why kids buy imports such as the civic and integra. It's not that they are "better" cars in anyway, it's because they are a fad right now, and kids are like monkeys copying what they see. Kid A gets civic and "mods" it, then kid B has to get a civic and mod it, etc...
    When asked why they bought it, they usually will only say because it's an import, not because it's more reliable or anything like that.
    Next imports are not more reliable than domestics. People who say that should be punched. People always say that the focus is unreliable because of the "recalls" it has had...why? Most of them are for things other than how reliable it will be. One was to fix a potentiol problem with a bolt (I think) rubbing agaisnt the seat belt and cutting through it. Something that to my knowledge has never happened. Engine and tranny wise its a reliable car. Any car that is taken car of will last. Sure you have lemons, but ever car company has them. If you do the simple things (change your oil, etc) any car will last many many miles. So again saying kids buy imports for that reason it just plain dumb.
  25. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    First, I replied to Seansvette's post above twice already, for some reason it doesn't seem to want to show, I will get to that tomorrow because I have to get to bed.

    Yamaha, you know what's up.

    Now if this post doesn't show then, well I guess it won't really matter anyway because you won't see this, therefore I am rambling pointlessly<A BORDER="0" HREF=""><IMG BORDER="0" SRC=""></A>

    By the way I only pointed out what education I'm getting because a)you kept calling me a moron, and b)you told me to "go back to kindergarten and learn something now". I just wanted to point out that "Kindergarten" for me entails a post-secondary education, and FYI just because I didn't choose a path in automotive engineering doesn't mean I don't know anything about performance.

    I don't really think that all kids are buying imports because they are a fad, perhaps 30-40% but certainly no more than that.

    As for reliability, Honda, Toyota, BMW, etc. have had fewer consumer complaints on their cars than ANY North American manufacturer.

    Furthermore the President of Daimler/Chrysler himself has openly admitted that the quality control of American manufacturers is far less than many import manufacturers and I quote "Out of the production of 100 automobiles from any one specific line Toyota may have 10% that are defective, 60% that are average and 30% that are built exceptionally well. While out of the production of the same number of automobiles we will produce say 35% that are defective, 45% that are average, and 10% that are built exceptionally well". I can't remember the exact words, but those figures are right (though those were just figures he estimated), and given how many more neons I've seen break down than Corollas I would think that should be about right.

    Um, you neglected to mention one major reliability related recall - the engine wire that will catch fire under normal driving conditions, let me reiterate UNDER NORMAL DRIVING CONDITIONS! I would say that means the engine is not very reliable. Then there's the rate of breakdowns, and the fact that parts in North American cars are not machined as precisely which results both in higher oil consumption and higher engine wear, Dodge has had past problems with the paint peeling off within 5 years of purchase (they have been called on it and there is a secret warranty for that, and they seem to have fixed this problem within recent years), both Dodge AND Ford have had poor transmission reliability problems, Dodge and Chevrolet have problems with overheating (have you ever seen a Honda on the side of the road due to overheating? '80's Toyota's had this problem, though no longer), and last point I can think of right now is the problems with engines just dying within the first 10 years of the car coming out of the factory, oh, and also engine performance often degrades more quickly in American cars (get a '90 firefly, and a '90 Civic and run both at the redline for extended periods under harsh conditions and see which one lasts longer, another good example is a '79 Dodge aspen and an '82 Subaru GLX - known from personal experience).

    Any car that is taken care of will last true, but I sincerely doubt that the average consumer treats an American car like $#!T, goes out and buys an import and treats it very well. Really, the higher cost for imports (and the reason resale value is so much higher, I mean why else would it be so much higher) is due to the fact that the vehicle remains in much better running condition.

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