Dont you Think That................................

Discussion in '1994 McLaren F1' started by FireBird175, Feb 10, 2003.

  1. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    Sorry man it wasn't against your post, it was against all those who say the McLaren F1 (regardless of version) can be beaten by the Veyron, the Enzo, the F40, F50, Dauer, Lingenfelter Corvettes (someone even dared to talk about a SONOMA in a McLaren forun!!!), just because some are a bit faster or accelerate quicker(street legal racing machines or huge engines with dozens of turboes coupled to luxury cars), or just because they got carbon fiber or ceramic brakes (that were built 10 years later and last for months, not years), despite looks, interior quality and equipment, technological advances for their age, etc.
    I can't blame anyone for his/her ignorance... at least they can appreciate the beauty and quality of some machines, as the Veyron or the Dauer, but unfortunately there are still some out there who love the hideous, austere and overpriced Enzo just because it's a Ferrari...
  2. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    I could easily be wrong but did i hear correctly that the Mclaren is illegal in the US unless modifications are made to it so it is more fuel efficent(i'm guessin that this thing doesn't get 16 mpg).
  3. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    I don't think it is illegal, and if it were, it wouldn't be because the fuel consumption.
    Many sports cars are illegal in some states: Zonda, Lotus, Mitsubishi EVO's, Porsche GT1, Skyline, etc (I recently read an article about this, and there was the example of Bill Gates, who's got himself into a lot of trouble bringing a Jaguar XJ220 from Europe). What I read was that many super cars aren't allowed because some stupid congressmen from California decided (like 20 years ago!) that they didn't wanted to see cars that expensive in their neighbors' garages, so they banned them! (envy, perhaps?)They made up a whole new set of regulations about driving safety (a car designed to go up to 200mph isn't safe??)gas/mileage, top speed, etc, so they couuldn't be brought from Europe or Japan.
    That same article even said that some people (many of them were celebrities) that already have fancy sports cars can't drive them and must keep them in their garages, and they can only drive them once or twice a year to the mechanic, but that's all! There are people who go all year round to their houses to make a record of the car's mileage, and if the owner exceeds it, the car is seized. I think I read it in Road and Track but I'll look for it and post it when I find it (even tough some people think that world-famous car magazines can't be trusted because they don't like when experts say something good about cars like McLaren)
  4. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    The stock McLaren F1 isn't street legal in the USA, that is correct. However, Ameritech, the American importer for the McLaren can perform modifications which include removal of the third seat, installation of airbags, changing of rear headlamps etc. Mostly mods to the interior and mild changes to the exterior, but NO MODS to make it any more fuel efficient.
  5. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    ok Im gonna do you guys a huuuuuge favor. to clear up the confusion about the mclarens motor im gonna print verbatem the entire chapter from "Driving Ambition" entitled The Bavarian Connection so that there wont be any more nimrods who think its a 7 series motor. statements like that just SCREAM ignorance so im gonna help those people out as well as give everyone else a good read(for those who dont already own the book)
    The Bavarian Connection

    ONE TERRIBLE DAUNTING QUESTION MARK hung over Mclaren Cars' Genesis headquarters for long months through 'Project 1's formative period in 1990. Ron Dennis: "They were forging ahead, undertaking the wide-ranging series of concept investigations which had been pre-planned, but nobody was able yet to tell Mansour and myself where the engine would be coming from. Consequently there could be no precise idea of its size-a critically decisive factor in car design. Obviously, it was a very significant problem...and a worry."

    Gordon: "Or course the engine was a priority from day one, minimum requirement 450 hp. The Ferrari F40 and Porsche 959 were already in the 450-480 bracket, and heavier that we would be,so I knew we'd have a better power to weight ratio. We all wanted a naturally aspirated v12, a vividly responsive, gutsy engine - a real spine tingler. That ruled out any big v8 and especially anything turbocharged- because of throttle lag, and muffled noise. We listed the manufacturers able to make hi-revving, large capacity, normally aspirated engines capable of 100bhp per litre. It was a short list-just Honda, BMW, and Ferrari. For obvious reasons, Ferrari was a then there were two."
    Honda was Mclaren Internationals Formula 1 partner at that time- their R+D centre at Tochigi, outside Tokyo, an obvious port of call. They were interested in a collaborative programme-but hopefully a 3.5 litre one. "we had several meetings at Tochigi and the only discussion was whether it would be a v10 or v12. Their engineers were keen. Early on they dismissed developing a racing engine to suit, because its cheaper and easier to start from scratch building a 100bhp per litre engine, than to detune a 200bhp per litre racer."
    Negotiantions with Honda drifted. Perhaps the Japanese were nervous of 'green' considerations, perhaps it was their as yet unheralded withdrawal from Formula 1. But then Jaquar and Bugatti launched turbocharged 'supercars' with as much as 550hp.
    "Even though I knew they were going to be 50 per cent heavier, that made me wary on engine capacity so I raised our requirement to a 5.3 litre v12. Honda really started to go cold...
    "We began packaging the car around a 5 litre v12. Time was running out. We talked to other manufacturers. Three were serious, Isuzu so serious they'd build us a 5.3 v12 from scratch. But we badly needed track record."
    A glittering one existed-one in which Gordon had participated but which he was overlooking-while in the backround Ron Dennis had long been clutivating a possible future collaboration with the same company:BMW. At one state the munich board had been close to a Formula 1 deal, but delayed their decision so long that Mclaren had to go elsewhere.
    When Gordon attended his first Grand Prix since '88 the 1990 German event at Hockenheim, he met an old friend-Paul Rosche, chief engineer of BMW Motorsport.
    Paul Rosche: "I asked Gordon 'How's the engine going for your new sports car?' He was very quiet, telling me he didnt really know, but one thing that was certain was that they were running out of time. I told him 'We could do the engine for you....'"
    Murray and Rosche had enjoyed a terrific working relationship through the five year Brabham-BMW partnership, 1982-87. They enjoyed each others company. Paul could be very wry, almost subversive-never averse to taking the mickey out of his own national stereotype. A brilliant lateral thinker, he had been instrumental in building much of BMW's immense sporting success. And, perhaps most critically, he had the ear of a BMW board which perhaps felt it owed Ron Dennis a favour.
    Paul then told Gordon that his Motorsport people were improving BMW's flagship production 5litre v12, perfecting 48 valve heads to be fitted to it.
    On October 25, 1990, Gordon visited Munich. The hoppped up production v12 would not do: "Too big and heavy. Definitely not for us. Then Paul asked 'What do you really want?', so I told him: big displacement in the smallest possible overally package size- absolutely no more than 600mm long-revving to around seven-five, 550 plus bhp, maximum weight 250kg, rigid enough to work as a load bearing structural member, drysump lubrication to minimise overally height and avoid surge in high-G cornering.
    "And Paul simply said 'We'll do a new engine.'"
    On November 15 a 'heavyweight' meeting convened at BMW Munich, Gordon and Creighton accompanying Ron Dennis- "That was the critical event-a very positive meeting," Ron recalled.
    On Feburary 1, 1991 engine specification, test programme and electronic requirements were thrashed out, on the 11th a press release was prepared and on the 15th the new collaboration and the Mclaren 'F1' name were announced. On March 28 Gordon spent all day at BMW- where 12 engineers were assigned.
    Paul Rosche introduced the project to them, then asked Gordon to "wind them up-tell them the standards McLaren will expect"- so he did.
    "I outlined the kind of car we intended, and laid it on the line that power to weight was the bottom line. I told them to consider that in everything they did. Never use a 10mm bolt when 9mm would do, consider weight as driving the disign. I could see them obviously thinking 'who is this loony, telling us how to design engines?' but Paul backed me up. So that whole project started off on the right foot."
    It would tend to go off the rails subsequently, before the Mclaren way suddenly clicked with Bavaria's finest. The new Mclaren F1 engine would emerge as the BMW Motorsport S70/2 V12. Munich's advanced alloy block casting techniques and expertise provided a very special capability to accommodate large capacity cylinder bores within minimum sized block dimensions-no more than 3mm seperating each from its neighbours. While this absolutely minimised overally package size, Motorsport actually employed well proven and conservative core technology and materials.
    The S70/2 engine was derived directly from BMW production practise, inheriting many features proved in the 6 cylinder power unit for their M5 high performnace sallon. Both the minimum size new dedicated cylinder block and heads were cast in aluminium, the cylinder bores Nicasil coated for wear resistance. Con rods and crankshaft were to be in forged and twisted steel, lighweight shallow skirted pistons in forged aluminium, and the exhaust valves sodium cooled. No resort was made to exotic titanium valves or con rods.
    The project demanded a vividly responsive 'racey' engine, certainly unlike BMW's production v12. Paul Rosche understood exactly what Mclaren required, the nap-shut rev shedding of a true racing engine-but in this case that had to be leavened by genuine around town tractability. He began by dispensing with a conventional flywheel, which also saved some weight-and fitted an aluminium plate instead, no larger nor thicker than absolutely necessary to transmit the engines torque to the proposed Formula 1 carbon clutch.
    With minimum rotational inertia, the v12 would lose revs as if it was being braked every time the throttle closed, facilitating the fastest possible gear change. Conversely once the throttle was re-applied, the rev gain would be almost instantaneous. What made this feasible was the v12s purest possible 60 degree vee angle betweeen cylinder banks- and painstaking dynamic balancing in the hand assembly process. Just to ensure optimum smoothnes, a torsional vibration damper would be applied.
    The small diameter output plate also allowed the crankshaft to drop even lower, reducing overall height, so saving more material- more weight. Racing style dry sump lubrication further minimised height by removing the need for a capacious wet sump. The Mclaren F1 would obviously generate racing style cornering loads, which would wash oil around a wet sump- however well baffled- this 'surge' fatally starving the bearings of oil when it might most be needed. A shallow base pan could also be made light yet rigid, to assist the block's structural duties.
    Rosche called Murray at one point to announce a feasible bore and stroke of 86mm by 87m - 6,064 cc; "Six point one litres Gordon, how does that sound?"
    "Cor- That sounds good..."
    It was far in advance of the 5.3Litres originally considered.
    But the volume of gas blasting through a 6.1 Litre v12 engine at 7,500rpm demands a very considerable exhaust system, which to meet international market regulations- as researched and monitored assiduously at Genesis by the diligent Harold Dermott- would require state of the art pollution trapping catalysers.
    Silencer box volume needed to be a wopping 65 Litres- the size of a loosely rolled double bed duvet. At Genesis Gordon almost despaired: "That was going to be seriously heavy, and how could we house it? Then the idea dawned. Because the engine and transmission were providing the chassis structure at the back of the car there was nothing at the tail we could use as an impact absorbing crush structure, beyond whatever body panelling we would end up with there. If we shaped this enormous silencer box to run the width of the car, immediately inside the tail bodywork, that could double up as our crush pad."
    One item, multiple fuctions- yet again, race bred engineering at its best. But what could a v12 exhaust systme, feeding a 65 litre silencer, possibly weight?
    The fax flashed back from Munich- exhaust system in standard BMW production steel, 100kg. This was blasphemy to the weight saving zealot.
    Gordon flew to Munich. "Paul introduced me to the guy who was designing the exhaust system, and winked at me, encouraging me to put on a show in the middle of the design office- to encourage the others.
    "That made the guys not only realise we were serious, but also encouraged them to start thinking- really thinking- about the weight problem, and they began suggesting good ideas, initiating stuff- and one said why not use inconel for the exhaust manifolds..."
    This stainless steel alloy is highly heat resistant, robust and light- used commonly in very high temperature turbocharger installations. Thinner gauge sections could endure exhaust system duty, and it was inherently lightweight. Downside- it was very expensive, and the S70/2 manifolding could demaind yards of it. On weight grounds alone it had to be the answer. The manifolds were fashioned in .8mm wall thickness inconel pipe, the 'double duvet' box fabricated in stainless steel- the Mclaren sports car's exhaust alone would cost as much as a small family car.
    Gordon:"BMW Motorsport had not begun work on the engine until March'91, yet by Christmas that year Pauls guys had the first prototype running on the dyno."
    Straight off the assembly stand, that first engine bawled into Bavarian life as an exceedingly butch and bonny baby; almost immediately it out performed Mclaren's 550bhp target by 14 percent- 627bhp. It met the 600mm length requirement. There had to be a downside. With all necessary ancillaries, exhaust system and silencer attached it overshot the 250kg weight target by some 16kg. Gordon would forgive them that -6.4percent overweight was more than compensated for by 14 percent extra power.
    His 'Brown Book' includes a justifiably excited entry for January 17, 1992. It reads 'Munich all day- saw 1st engine- excellent meeting with BMW.'
    On March 4,1992 the first running prototype S70/2 V12 was delivered to Genesis to be prepared for installation in the tailor made second test hack, 'Edward.'
    April 6 saw the completed Clinic Model unveiled to the entire Genesis team and to the directors at the fatigue tinged yet very happy champagne party. It was then that Ron Dennis and Mansour Ojjeh saw where the company's investment was leading, and they saw 'the real engine' in Woking's answer to Ferrari's famous serious of mulettos.
    The new power unit just proliferated with race-bred features, yet was very much a road engine. It had to be road tractable, moderatly stressed to achieve a respectable service life and practicable maintenance schedules. In Munich Motorsport's engineers even put it through the same 500 hour bench test to which any other BMW road going power unit would be subjected. Nominal service interval was settled upon as 5,000 miles.
    Much development was still to be pursued, although as much of Motorsport's tried and tried and trusted technology had been employed as possible, basically to meet Mclaren Cars' desperatly tight time scale.
    While the S70/2's twin overhead camshaft and 4 valve per cylinder valvetrain technology was shared with the high performance BMW M3, the distantly related engines were tuned to significantly different torque characteristics. While the more mundane 'racer on the road' M3 saloon car torque car curve peaked at 3,600rpm, that for the F1 'driver's supercar' engine simply soared to peak at 5,600 rpm, only 1,600rpm below peak power output.
    But would thi make the new Mclaren like the Ferrari V12s which Gordon had sampled at the project's outset- a ball of fire at descant revs but making much noise yet not doing very much below 6,000? Hardly.
    The S70/2 would deliver a neck cracking 398lb/ft torque at just 1,500rpm, and could pull a house down with more than 479lb/ft torque all the way from 4,000rpm to 7,000. With a more specific power output of 103bhp per litre, the power to weight ratio of the finalised Mclaren F1 would be something like 550bhp per tonne- the one time target for maximum power output, never mind power to weight ratio...
    TAG Electronics collaborated with BMW Motorsport on engine management requirements for this incredibly compact, incredibly capable new power unit. An early problem involved restraining this 'vivid' V12 on modest throttle openings in traffic. Mere tractability was insufficient- one report explained that it "also had to be sufficiently controllable to prevent burying the F1 under a lorry at the slightest throttle twitch. Careful throttle linkage design and TAG Electronics' expertise in engine management were relied upon."
    Great pains were taken in developement to optimise the V12's induction system- matching inlet tract length, diameter and surface finish and plenum chamber and volume - while and automatic variable length intake system was dismissed as an unnecessary complication.
    Although the new engine ran at virtually half the speed of contemporary Formula 1 engines, Paul Rosche's development team found that across the entire rev range, mixture preperation from a single injector per cylinder was not ideal. This was a familiar problem in high speed engines, because at high revs inlet air speeds leave the incoming fuel spray too little time to atomise fully if the injector is placed close to the inlet valve, as it normally is in road engines with an injector nozzle in each individual induction tract.
    To correct this situation they fitted two fuel injectors per cylinder. The first, sited close to the inlet valve, operated at low engine speeds, while the second, further up the inlet tract, would take over in a smooth transition at high speeds, governed by TAG's engine management computer.
    In the case of the lower injector, a narrow jet of air, drawn into the inlet tract by the partial vacuum created on the induction stroke, was directed to dissipate the fuel spray into smaller droplets.
    In testing, the electronic management system would be fully 'mapped,' to provide optimum fuel injection metering and ignition throughout the range. On the dyno, settings would be carefully adjusted until the best desired result could be achieved at a set engine engine speed. Perhaps 100rpm higher in the range, settings would be juggled and optimised once more- then again another 100rpm faster still. The management chip software would be rewritten each time to repeat those optimum settings at that engine speed and throttle demand. Quite quickly a rough guide 'map' would have been compiled, from which the intervening rev level settings could be filled in. As more time was spent, the gradations of the 'map' would become fine, and finer...
    When Mclaren won three Formula 1 World titles with its TAG V6 engined MP4/2 series cars in 1984-86 it eventually became a proud boast that their engine's management system had been mapped to a pinpoint throughout its entire rev range.
    With the S70/2 V12 fully mapped contactless ignition was standard, each cylinder- Formula 1 style- having its own miniature ignition coil, by TAG electronics.
    As far as 'green' requirements were concerned, secondary air injection was used to reduce pollutant levels during the critical warm uop phase. Until the four catalytic converters would reach light off- relatively quickly since they were more closely coupled in the F1 than in something like Motorsport's production M5- air would be injected into the exhaust manifold to burn off the excess hydrocarbons inevitable with cold start overfueling.
    Variable valve timing was featured, with an hydraulically actuated phasing mechanism retarding the inlet cam relative to the exhaust cam at low revs, which would reduce valve overlap to ensure good idle behaviour and low speed torque. Higher up the rev range, the engine management computer would command valve overlap to be increased by 42 degrees to improve engine breathing and maximise power output.
    Conservative and well proven through BMW Motorsport's technology might have been considered, in double quick time the German engine specialist had created for Mclaren's 'Project 1' a simply prodigious power unit.
  6. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    I said that in about 6 lines...
  7. Re: Dont you Think That................................


    well all i'll say to that is nobody had a gun to your head.
  8. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    Ahhh, so the McLaren engine DOES come from the 7 series bimmer. <A BORDER="0" HREF=""><IMG BORDER="0" SRC=""></A>
  9. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    Aha, indded it DOESEN'T.
  10. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    I just wanted to say I AM BACK!You can't kill me!I am
    ***LaMagra-X*** and I will defend the F1 till its beaten!H4h4!
  11. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    Quote from MWB
    Ah, America, great land of censorship and fighters of free speech. It's funny how the country that so often goes to war against other countries to try to force them to adopt democracy is so far from a free society itself. To avoid hypocrisy, I recommend that the good old U.S. of A. bomb themselves until they concede that fascism isn't the way to go.


    SHUT UP! this is for cars not stupid remarks a bout great places.

    and i dont have enough posts so im putting this here:

    i think that even though the bugatti is a better car than this that this is comparable to the bugatti because of the year it was made in.
  12. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    Buagatti suxx!
  13. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    I think you have a really good point.
  14. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    ya, good on u.
  15. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    well thank you 2 users for the positive comments and keep on posting
  16. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    this car kicks @$$ Period
  17. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    Yeah this is the greatest supercar. And it actually has some practicality in it. LOL such as a Cd player and seating for 3 and it has air conditioning?
  18. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    lol, it does?
  19. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    yep and kenwood sub-woofers
  20. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    It is a pretty dam good car but 1st Generation Firebirds will always look better but will never perform better than the standard for todays HIGH END SUPER CARS.
  21. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    u must be American!dude!
  22. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    True to u!( tha originator!)
  23. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    McLaren's are tight but the cost too much. Go Jap n save some cash on the car, gas, parts, everything n still have a sick ride.
  24. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    obviously you dont understand the technology inside this car
  25. Re: Dont you Think That................................

    people, mclaren supose to be the fastest car in the world, tell me this one thing.
    why does the mclaren look similar to the other cars ?

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