how long do you think bush would last

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by rj ufo, Sep 1, 2004.

  1. had he been deployed as a regular soldier to fight in iraq?

    feel free to illustrate with ms paint or other software his "tragic end" scene and post it.
     
  2. I think the real question is: How long would it be before Kerry asked for three purple hearts and complained about a self-inflicted wound before he was sent home to go lie about the horrible things are soldiers are doing there?
     
  3. Then write an album about the horrors of Vietnam and join Jane Fonda and a bunch of other Commies in rallies and get arrested time and time again. Then toss his own medals at the White House trying to "return them" and then later claim he was returning someone else's because he was too pussy to toss his own.
     
  4. bush will be surely reelected and you will have to deal with it.
     
  5. He already went to Iraq... and he didn't last more than 6 hours.
     
  6. what a stupid thread.
     
  7. I can't say I've had my best moments with you. But now, we're certainly on the same page here.
     
  8. Thats true, he only lasted 6 hours when he was there.

    I really cant believe that people are putting down Kerrys record, he actually went, has war wounds on his body still, how can you dispute this? The fact of the matter is that he did more than bush in terms of serving, end of story!
     
  9. He cheated for his medals and his wounds were light self inflicted wounds.Conclusion Kerry is a liar.
     
  10. Kerry says he should be President based his war record, which isn't much of a record. The thing is that Bush doesn't base his campaign on a 4 month stint almost 35 years ago, like Kerry does. Kerry's war record is all that he he has put on the table for the american people, so that's all he has. Bush however, since he is already president, actually has to focus on politics, making his military record irrelevant.
     
  11. The question says if he went to Iraq as a regular soldier, not as President.
     
  12. People who were there dispute his record. Interviews, news reels and photos from that era all dispute his "courage". He is the modern Benedict Arnold and once his wealth or power runs out, he will go running to the other side, like he did back then too, like Arnold did back in the 16th century.
     
  13. Haha, it's true...
     
  14. ok, since we are being shown kerry's war record, let's go back and look at Bush's...

    A 1971 ANG evaluation said Bush had the potential to "promote well ahead of his contemporaries" and added, "Lt. Bush's main strengths are his eagerness to participate in the unit's activities and his ability to work harmoniously with others." A 1970 letter recommending him for a promotion from second to first lieutenant called him "a dynamic outstanding young officer." Perhaps you mean the letter from the then Lt. Col Jerry Killian saying "Lt. Bush is possessed of sound judgment, yet is a tenacious competitor and an aggressive pilot. He is mature beyond his age and experience level."?

    I am aware of the controversy once he requested transfer to equivalent duty with the 187th, and understand that people have questions. However, I would would question the assertaitions stated elswhere that he recieved poor evaluations and was frequently AWOL.


    It has been said that Bush joined the ANG to skirt duty. But if you're trying to skirt combat duty, there are safer ways of doing it that volunteering for flight training in a fighter jet that is known to be extremely dangerous (the F102 killed over 70 pilots in that time period), in a guard unit known to depoy fighters to shadow MiGs in Vietnam, and then excel at being a pilot (which would guarantee you a tour flying in combat).

    AerospaceWeb.org, which is an apolitical, non-profit aerospace education and information site, did some research into the role of the F-102 in Vietnam, and the role of Bush's ANG unit during the period. Here are some excerpts:

    .......................................................

    It really bothers me that a coward like George W. Bush spent the Vietnam War training to fly old and useless planes in Texas while John Kerry was heroically risking his life in combat and got three purple hearts!
    - Jennifer Braun

    We normally shy away from the world of politics, but we get variations of this kind of question regularly and feel it necessary to clarify some information. We'll do our best to avoid bringing our own political biases into this article since we are more interested in defending an "old and useless" aircraft than any particular politician! George W. Bush's military service began in 1968 when he enlisted in the Texas Air National Guard after graduating with a bachelor's degree in history from Yale University. The aircraft that he was ultimately trained to fly was the F-102 Delta Dagger. A number of sources have claimed that Bush sought service in the National Guard to avoid being sent to Vietnam, and that the F-102 was a safe choice because it was an obsolete aircraft that would never see any real combat. However, those perceptions turn out to be incorrect, as will be seen shortly.

    It is a common misconception that the Air National Guard was a safe place for military duty during the Vietnam War. In actuality, pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group [Bush's unit], as it was called at the time, were actually conducting combat missions in Vietnam at the very time Bush enlisted. In fact, F-102 squadrons had been stationed in South Vietnam since March 1962. It was during this time that the Kennedy administration began building up a large US military presence in the nation as a deterrent against North Vietnamese invasion.

    F-102 squadrons continued to be stationed in South Vietnam and Thailand throughout most of the Vietnam War. The planes were typically used for fighter defense patrols and as escorts for B-52 bomber raids. While the F-102 had few opportunities to engage in its primary role of fighter combat, the aircraft was used in the close air support role starting in 1965. Armed with rocket pods, Delta Daggers would make attacks on Viet Cong encampments in an attempt to harass enemy soldiers. Some missions were even conducted using the aircraft's heat-seeking air-to-air missiles to lock onto enemy campfires at night. Though these missions were never considered to be serious attacks on enemy activity, F-102 pilots did often report secondary explosions coming from their targets.

    Even in peacetime conditions, F-102 pilots risked their lives on every flight. Only highly-qualified pilot candidates were accepted for Delta Dagger training because it was such a challenging aircraft to fly and left little room for mistakes. According to the Air Force Safety Center, the lifetime Class A accident rate for the F-102 was 13.69 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours, much higher than the average for today's combat aircraft. For example, the F-16 has an accident rate of 4.14, the F-15 is at 2.47, the F-117 at 4.07, the S-3 at 2.6, and the F-18 at 4.9. Even the Marine Corps' AV-8B, regarded as the most dangerous aircraft in US service today, has a lifetime accident rate of only 11.44 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours. The F-102 claimed the lives of many pilots, including a number stationed at Ellington during Bush's tenure. Of the 875 F-102A production models that entered service, 259 were lost in accidents that killed 70 Air Force and ANG pilots. [I wonder what the statistics were for PCF skippers, pro-rated for serving 1/3 the required length of the standard tour?]

    Nevertheless, we have established that the F-102 was serving in combat in Vietnam at the time Bush enlisted to become an F-102 pilot. In fact, pilots from the 147th FIG of the Texas ANG were routinely rotated to Vietnam for combat duty under a program called "Palace Alert" from 1968 to 1970. Palace Alert was an Air Force program that sent qualified F-102 pilots from the ANG to bases in Europe or southeast Asia for periods of three to six months for frontline duty. Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior, MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required.

    [contrast this with Kerry's volunteering for PCF duty while it was assigned to non-hazardous coastal patrols. Riverine duty wasn't assigned until AFTER Kerry volunteered for the program]

    Furthermore, ANG veteran COL William Campenni, who was a fellow pilot in the 111th FIS at the time, told the Washington Times that Palace Alert was winding down and not accepting new applicants.

    The point of this discussion is that the military record of George W. Bush deserves a fair treatment. Bush has been criticized for avoiding service in Vietnam, though the evidence proves that the Texas Air National Guard and its F-102 pilots where serving in Vietnam while Bush was in training. Bush has been criticized for using his family influence to obtain his assignment, but the evidence shows that he successfully completed every aspect of the more than two years of training required of him. Bush has been criticized for pursuing a safe and plush position as a fighter pilot, but the evidence indicates the F-102 was a demanding aircraft whose pilots regularly risked their lives. Bush has also been criticized for deserting the Guard before his enlistment was complete, but the evidence shows he was honorably discharged eight months early because his position was being phased out.

    .......................................

    Yes, Bush never actually SW combat, but that's because *after* he finished training, the military started to phase out ANG fighter operations (not before). That was a calculation entertained by most draft eligible men of that generation. You join up to do what you like most or dislike least before you get picked to do what you like least/hate most. Bush apparently wanted to be a fighter pilot, and this was a quick way to become one.
     
  15. At least Kerry fought for this country. Bush is a pussy & probably wouldn't last very long in Iraq.
     
  16. Brilliant post Chris V.Thanks for the info.
     
  17. Did you even READ my post? Do you understand what I'm pointing out?
     
  18. Kerry was drafted and forced to fight, there was no option (except for doing what cliton did and going to canada). Bush joined the national guard, which was a combat unit, but simply was not called to go to vietnam. Bush is a pussy simply because he was not forced to go? It was neither of their decisions to do what they did. Maybe Bush might have been called, and Kerry wouldn't have been drafted, it's all chances, not choices.
     
  19. Did you not just read that article Chris V posted right above your post? For crying out loud...get a #$%#ing clue.

    edit - Post was directed at MuscleCarHeart, whose post got deleted.
     
  20. Except he spent more time fighting against it with the Vietcong following his service in the U.S. military.


    The most disheartening thing about Kerry....A 2002 book written by Colonel Bui Tin (General Staff) of the North Vietnamese forces stated outright....The NVA was all but ready to offer a complete and unconditional surrender to the SV and American forces. Their will had been broken. If it wasn't for the supportive Americans (Jane Fonda, Ramsey Clark, John Kerry), they would have surrendered.

    John Kerry DIRECTLY helped to cause the death of hundreds of additional American troops and THOUSANDS of NVA and South Vietnamese, in addition to encouring the aggressive dissent in this country.

    I would rather vote for Jesse Jackson for President than John Kerry.
     
  21. The best thing is to vote Bush. Kerry is such a liar.
     
  22. Chris V, good post.

    Now, here's what I have to say about it. You can anaylze Bush's military record and compare it to Kerry's all you like. The thing is that military service is irrelevant in politics. Trust me, I know people who spent a year in Iraq (more than Kerry's 4 months in vietnam) and I would rather have my 13 year old brother be president than any of these people. However, I feel that we may ridicule Kerry's war record all we like, because that's the only reason he's given us that he should be our president. Bush however, does not base his campaign on irrelevant military records.

    Being forced to go to war does not make you fit to be president. Being in the national guard instead of going to war does not make you unfit to be president.

    Now, to be fair, you could investigate Kerry's senate record as it pertains to military and intelligence issues. I'd imagine that posting Kerry's senate record would be more helpful than Bush's military record, don't you? But you won't do that, why? Because making Bush's military record look bad (although it doesn't matter) agrees with your political opinions.

    In closing, thank you for proving my point that Kerry wants us all to ignore the issues that matter and focus on unimportant military records. Looks likie Kerry tricked Chris V rather well, may he not fool the rest of you.
     
  23. hes gonna last for 10 seconds
     
  24. Agree, why to vote for an amateur liar when you can choose a professional?
     
  25. Hhahaha the best joke ever.I am laughing loud.A typical Homero joke.
     

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