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Discussion in 'Asian Forums' started by ajzahn, Mar 21, 2007.
BMW "discovered" motorsports long before the 2002ti...
Granted that in Europe BMW, Audi, and VW all sell some pretty low end cars. In the US they don't though. Over here they're more or less high end only, with VW dipping a bit lower than the others.
If VW can't do too well with as great a car as the Phaeton I don't see Hyundai being able to pull it off. VW has a pretty good rep and people don't want to shell out that kinda cash for one of them. So Hyundai is definately a no go stateside, in Korea it could be ok.
I thought Equus was a full sized luxary car made in Koreaby hyundai. Not a brand name.
oops i misread.
Why can't they ever try make something original?
Thats hard in Hyundai's position. BMW can power through with Bangled designs because it has a strong following. Same with Mercedes' CLS and Porsche's Cayenne. If Hyundai tries anything out of the norm, it will be shot down with an ICBM.
BTW, in Korea there is persistent rumor that Hyundai will kill the Coupe/Tiburon and replace it with a car based on the Genesis. The rumor isn't pin pointing an exact type of car though. It ranges from a smaller RWD sedan, Genesis based coupe and a sport version of the Genesis.
In anycase, I think the tuner crowd would go crazy over a RWD sedan a less than 40 grand. Nevermind one with a V8!
Really, people are less brand whores in Europe?
Much less than US and especially Japan. Brand marketing isn't very effective if the product isn't good. For instance, the Mercedes C class sport coupe. In the states, you can sell a crappy car with good marketing. For instance, 90s Cadillacs and Lincoln Towncars.
Japan is an extreme case where they don't even buy their own Lexus because the brand is weaker than the Germans. Japanese people from my experience, seem particularly weak at corporate marketing. To them, brand image is a higher priority than design and quality.
They buy the Crowns not the Lexus, because Lexus brand is still new, but it is picking up sales with the new LS
Hyundai needs to be where Honda is for them to be looking at making an LS, 7, S, or A8 competitor, because the US market is not ready for it yet
Only thing Koreans are good at building are nuclear missiles..
You need a geography lesson.
Who would EVER buy a Hyundai for that kind of money??? The Phaeton was an AMAZING car. Same platform as the Bentley Continental, they are hand built, 201mph and the thing is still stable, still quiet, beautiful interior. I mean honestly, the Phaeton is more than a contendor in its class. That STILL failed to sell like VW hoped. A shame to be honest. Hyundai I seriously doubt will be able to pull an engineering marvel like that off, so that thing will fail. I couldnt even see it as worthy competition to a Caddy DTS. This will fail unless its priced WAY lower, like an E-class base price or something.
Since when can a Phaeton reach 201 mph?
The Phaeton may have been unsuccessful in the states, but it certainly was in Europe. And the success of the Phaeton continues through the Bentley Conti GT and Flying Spur which are heavily based on it. Besides, Ferdinand Piech never believed that the Phaeton would be profitable. It was to act as a halo car to move the VW brand up the scale to avoid Asian competitors. Once the Phaeton sinks in to the public's minds as a VW (which was unthinkable 10 years ago) the second generation would start bringing profits in without the help of Bentley.
I really don't think this Genesis is aiming at the LS, 7, S and A8. I think it is aiming at the Acura TL, Audi A6, VW Passat, Chrysler 300C and the Skoda Superb. near luxury cars that can't quite compete with the more established Germans. The Japanese like the G35, TL and GS are probably the Genesis's #1 target.
Hyundai's New York star unveiled
Photographs of Hyundais latest concept car, which was due to be unveiled at the New York motor show in April, have leaked onto the internet.
Although Hyundai had previously released sketches of the Genesis concept, this is the first chance weve had to see it for real.
The Genesis is designed to take on cars such as the Lexus GS, and to move Hyundai upmarket. Significantly, like the GS the Genesis will be rear-wheel-drive and available with V8 power, positioning it upmarket from Hyundais previous luxury offerings.
While US buyers have had the option of the Azera, a vast 7-series-sized saloon, like its smaller sibling, the Sonata, that is V6-powered and front-wheel drive.
Hyundais ambitions are clear in the slightly derivative styling of the Genesis; the rear roofline mimics the GSs, the bootlid has hints of 5-series, the rear lights hints of 3-series, and the rectangular exhaust apertures are reminiscent of the new Lexus LSs.
No interior shots have been released, but wed expect the Genesis to follow the smoother, more sophisticated styling of the recently launched i30 hatchback.
Theres no word yet on whether or not Europe will get the Genesis. If we do, its likely to be badge i70.
Hyundai hopes to compete in luxury arena with rwd Genesis
By RICK KRANZ | AUTOMOTIVE NEWS
AutoWeek | Updated: 03/26/07, 8:18 am et
BACK TO SHOW COVERAGE
Hyundai has grand ambitions for the elegant V8 Genesis concept it will roll out at the New York auto show April 4.
The Genesis shows the styling direction for Hyundai's new rear-drive sedan - and the engineering commitment. The car was benchmarked for torsional stiffness against a BMW 5 series.
The production version will go on sale in the second half of 2008. A version with a 3.8-liter V6 will be priced well below $30,000, a Hyundai spokesman said. He did not estimate the price for the 4.6-liter V8 version, which will produce more than 300 hp.
The sedan will be the first of several vehicles developed off Hyundai's new rwd platform, said John Krafcik, Hyundai Motor America vice president for product development.
"We focused on ensuring world-class body-in-white characteristics because that is where great vehicles come from," he said.
The production model "in its body-in-white form is lighter and stronger than a BMW 5 series and Mercedes-Benz E class," Krafcik said during a telephone interview.
The Genesis is 0.2 inches longer and 0.8 inches narrower than a Chrysler 300 sedan. The concept was styled in Korea.
Much of the styling will carry over to the production sedan.
The front and rear styling will change. But Krafcik said: "Everything from the A-pillar to the C-pillar is pretty much 'what you see is what you get.' The greenhouse is the actual car."
Well it's not gonna win over buyers in the looks department. Ugly little thing.
True, the Phaeton was a success in Europe. After reading the new posts I see that the competition of the car is as you said the midsize class, and it wont hurt the E-Class or 5-Series very much, which changes my entire opinion about the prospects of this car. I am curious as to your comment about how the Phaeton was never intended to be profitable. I remember reading that they fell well below their target sales in the US market. This is not a retaliation, I would just like to know more about the Phaeton and what VWs intentions were when they brought the car out. Do you have any articles or sites you could refer me to?
Lol, don't worry man. I agree there are alot of cranky people here, but I assure you, I'm not one of them. I just like to discuss ideas, not debate them. This is actually a pretty complicated topic. I'll do my best to make it sound easier than it is.
The example it'd like to start with is the VW Phaeton. When Ferdinand Piech was still CEO of Volkswagen group, he aggrssively tried to expand it. In Europe, VW has brands positioned under VW (Seat, Skoda) so they had to push VW upwards. The same is not true in the States where VW has traditionally been a "cheap" brand. To Europeans, quality and design has a higher priority compared to brand image so the more luxurious and well built Golf, Phaeton and Touareg were well recieved. In the States however, brand image has a higher priority than design or quality so nobody wanted to shell out BMW money for a VW. Consequently, all of the three models (Golf, Phaeton, Touareg) that tried the luxury VW initiative in the States failed miserably. So much so that the name 'Golf' had to be pulled off as to not ruin the name.
The reason why I picked VW as an example is because I believe Hyundai is in VW's position a decade ago. Hyundai's currentl lineup somewhat resembles the engineering quality of VW's cars of the mid/late 90's. Compare the current Sonata with the last gen Passat for instance. Since the Genesis is for the US, lets forget about the Europe element to it. So even if the Genesis turns out to be close in engineering terms to the Germans it won't help it to position the car alongside a 5 series. Rather, it'll be a useful PR tool to convince people of Hyundai's engineering capabilities. After all, MB, BMW, Audi and Lexus got their reputation from engineering.
This is why I don't think the Genesis will be competing with the established Germans. The brand just isn't strong enough. It is in the exact situation as VW. You'll notice that there are alot of companies out there claiming to build cars capable of competing with the "established" Germans. So far those that succeeded in joining this elusive group is just Audi and Lexus. These two companies have been trying to reach the level of BMW and MB for decades and they are finally there. Then there are companies that aren't quite at that level like Infiniti, Acura, Alfa Romeo, Cadillac and some models of Chrysler and VW. I believe the Genesis will join the latter group.
But still, the Genesis definitely is a step in the right direcction. I think Infiniti and Acura will recieve the heaviest blow from this car more than anyone else. Judging from the specs, the Genesis has the potential to rival the Acura RL which costs up to $49k and the Infinity M that costs between $40~50k. Both of these Japanese sedans are V6 powered. I think the Genesis makes perfect sense for Hyundai to overtake these two brands and close the gap between itself and Lexus.
As for the Phaeton's profitability, I can't give you an article as it is from an issue of 'CAR' back in 2002. Phaeton was abit of VW's Veyron. Piech needed VW to go up the ladder to leave room for Seat and Skoda as well as avoid competition with lower cost brands. The D3 platform the Phaeton is built on is used by the Audi A8 and Bentley Continental GT and Flying Spur. So even without the Phaeton making profit, the D3 platform would still be profitable. The Phaeton was strictly a brand exercise.
- Here's a pic I found on a Korean website today of the first 'official pics'.
- Edit: oh, and here is a detailed article with more pics from Motor Trend.
This is one of the better cars I've ever seen. Hyundai's Elantra and Sonata are fantastic cars, and no longer just "good for the money." The Elantra has one of the best interiors in teh class and, while not sporty, provides luxurious-within-class travel for those who just need a car.
The new Pontiac G8 is a fantastic car and made everyone very excited when it launched, and I fail to see why people can't be excited for this. It is speculated to cost between 30,000 and 40,000 USD, not 50,000. For that, you will get a 3.6 to 5.5 litre V8 with 300-who knows horsepower.
Have a little faith. No one thought Samsung could overtake Sony.
And for those really against it, here is a funny thought; when GM, Chrysler and Ford are all intending to launch RWD revival cars, what Asian company was ready to meet them head on? Not Toyota. Not Nissan. Hyundai.
I think it could be sweet, especially for the cash. But the thing that everyone is laughing at is how they're talking about competing with the Euro companies. If they were like "Yea we're gunning for the Charger & G8" people would probably be more receptive. That's who they're really going to end up stealing sales from, not BMW, MB, and Audi.
Hyundai PR doesn't suggest this car will go head on with the Germans. I think it is the press that is giving us that idea. This Genesis should go head on with Infiniti, Acura and maybe Lexus.
I dunno, Kiyundai might be the best car company right now.
Whether it is or not it's all about peoples perception. People simply will not consider a Hyundai to be comparable to a European brand. Maybe in 10 or 20 years they will, but not right now. HOWEVER they might consider it comparable to an American company. So lets say this goes up against the 300, Towncar, maybe the CTS or DTS. That I can see. But more than likely people will even perceive those to be better, and will think of it as a reasonable alternative to a Crown Vic, Charger, and G8.
You have to remember people are idiots. They care more about their image than getting a good car. Which is understandable to a degree. If this was only marginally better than a BMW I'd rather have a BMW. It'd have to really romp it for me to take it over a 5 series.