I SPIT on your "Masterpiece"

Discussion in '2000 Honda S2000' started by beliveinfiction, Nov 11, 2002.

  1. Masterpiece (n) – Something superlative of its kind. (In other words best in its class)

    This is how some of you have described this car in other forums and as I will demonstrate it has numerous short comings. Car and Driver has recently published and article called “Hot tin roofs” testing several sport coupes under $40,000 and they too found the S2000 to fall short in many areas. (It placed 3rd out of 4)

    First which was even shocking to myself is that the best 0-60 time they were able to achieve was 6.3 seconds even then the clutch was dropped just shy of the redline. They then remarked that such a launch is for “people who can do clutch changes on their lunch hour.” Implying that launching the car in such a manor it highly damaging to the clutch. I don’t know how previous times of aprox. 5.5 seconds to 60 were achieved without doing further clutch damage.

    I know that you Honda fans are thinking that it doesn’t matter if this car doesn’t have the greatest 0-60 time; it’s the perfect track car. C&D does complement its neutral handling, sharp cornering, and excellent breaking and I myself agree with them. However, C&D found the S2000 to have short comings even on the road course:

    “The S2000 engine’s compressed power band is its downfall. You don’t get all the horsepower you’ve paid for until the engine zings to 8300rpm, or all the torque—that is, all 153 pound feet—until 7500rpm.
    That’s because the VTEC variable-valve-timing system doesn’t serve up the hot cam until 6000rpm, giving you just 3000 raucous revs in which to enjoy the enhanced punch before the fuel cutoff. That’s fine for faster corners where you can keep the engine spinning, but in the tighter turns and full-stop hairpins, the engine falls into a crater, and it’s a long climb out.” (Car and Driver Dec 2002)

    This shows that the S2000 is a very good track car but a near absence of low end torque will hurt its acceleration out of slow corners.

    C&D also notes that the lack of low end torque makes this car undesirable for daily driving: “The inflexible power band is also what makes the S2000 a somewhat unsatisfying drive in everyday traffic. The Honda is a stone in first gear until the VTEC crossover at about 33 mph….”

    There were some more minor complaints. The new aluminum roof left the already cramped cabin to be “claustrophobic”. C&D editors did find the engine noise pleasant when running through the gears but annoying at 5,000rpms on the highway for an extended period of time.

    So after all that why do I spit on your “Masterpiece”? Well that was more of an attention getting statement if anything but I was trying to prove some points.

    -This car has its short comings, as does EVERY OTHER CAR ON THE MARKET, no car is perfect in every way, in every field of performance.
    -This and many other VTEC powertrains have performance issues. (Specifically in the low rpm range) I’m so tired of people just assuming this is the best engine ever just because it revs to 9,000 rpm and therefore must have no shortcomings at all.

    With its down sides or not I still have very much respect for this car over other Hondas for several reasons, 1. It’s RWD, 2. Good amount of Hp, 3. Admirable track performance. I’m not a hater I just like to see ever car for what it’s worth and wish more people could do so, as many people overate this one.
     
  2. Re: I SPIT on your

    well put mate.......
     
  3. Re: I SPIT on your

    i would say a BMW M3 is pretty much "the perfect car" theres not an awful lot to complain about is there? i mean it looks nice, its fast, handles well, its got 4 seats, its well made, not too expensive, fuel consumption aint bad.

    Is there any other car on sale that has those 7 qualities?
     
  4. Re: I SPIT on your

    M5 has all 7 plus 4 more, 4 doors, bigger back seat, more practical powerband, and V8 torque. For what you get that is "not too expensive" either (excluding excessive dealer markups). One thing though, after getting 400 hp and 28 mpg in my Z0 I always feel so dissapointed about the fuel consuption part maybe they'll get the cylinder deactivation on OHC engines soon. I heard Caddilac is going to have it on the XLR, anyone know about that?
     
  5. Re: I SPIT on your

    an M5 in considerably more expensive than an M3, isnt much faster and has worse fuel consumption - still an amazing car tho.

    the ZR1 Vette was an OHC cylinder shut-down engine wasnt it?

    Mercedes used it on 1 of their big engines aswell, cant remember which 1.

    its not difficult, u just program the ECU not to squirt fuel through the injection system...power of course will be wasted a little since you will be compressing air for no reason at all twice every stroke (on a V8) but it saves fuel

    magnetic valves is the answer - so long as the electricity doesnt melt them

    (on the subject of magnetism, can someone tell me how the hell the new suspension system on the '03 Vette works, ive read articles about it but dont understand - someone with some engineering background would b good, as im an Eng student myself)
     
  6. Re: I SPIT on your

    cool man, this is all true, i especially agree with youre last paragraph.

    one of the few bits of sense i have seen so far on this board.
    hah......but i piss on whatever car u have <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A> j/k
    i need that in a picture in my sig or something, <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>
     
  7. Re: I SPIT on your

    The only complaint, if you could even call it that, that i have read about the M3 was that it had minor amounts of understeer. I think one writer complained that the ride was "to stiff" but its a sports car, he'll get over it. It is rather expensive too. No car is perfect but some are damn close, "perfection" can comes at a price too.
     
  8. Re: I SPIT on your

    $45k is hardly what i'd call an out-of-this-world price tag, especially compared to a $70k M5

    (my personal preference for the best affordable dream car is the new RX8, i would kill for 1)
     
  9. Re: I SPIT on your

    Very well said! At first I thought u were just flaming on the forums (I don't appreciate the subject name much...), but I see the intelligence in every word you said!

    Personally, I love jap 'crap' like nothing else, and the S2000 is one of my 5 favorite Japanese cars. Still though, the S2000 DOES have issues. The crappy launch you were talking about? It's due to the utter lack of torque (as I just now realized you had stated as well, again, great job), much like you would find with a Lotus. While it saves your tires, the clutch has to endure a LOT of HP from start without any/much tire slip... correctable, but it still sucks. This car wasn't even meant to be launched like that... you shouldn't launch ANY car like that, it doesn't matter if it's a ford PINTO, OEM clutches aren't made for that kind of abuse, period.

    As for the 'cramped interior': I haven't driven/ridden in one, so I wouldn't know, but to me it seems to be the kind of car you WEAR instead of just drive (much like DSM's... now THERE's a cockpit, NOT a cabin).

    The only SERIOUS flaw of the S2000 I see is it's UTTER lack of power anywhere below 5 Grand, and not much there until around the mid 6000's. As you said, it has poor low end performance. Luckily (thanks to the 9000 RPM redline), a good driver will have to take it in the @ss in 1st gear only... after that, it's 6000+ RPM all the way to the finish line, whether your in 1st or last place.

    It seems to be a fun car, but you don't want to be where the red lights are... keep it on the highway.

    Again, thanks for the intelligent conversation (it's kind of hard to come by in the Japanese forums), it was a pleasure rapping with you, and I hope to see you again!.

    Peace, I'm out.
     
  10. Re: I SPIT on your

    Wow, thanks for the reply you just may be the first person on this site who has great apreciation for this car but can still admit it has some flaws. THANKS!!
     
  11. Re: I SPIT on your

    I drive an S2000 everyday, and i admit is has some flaws. I have HKS exhaust on it, which creates some more torque. But, i have a video of an S2000 doing a 14 second 1/4 mile run. It's all in how you drive the car. It's a modulation kinda thing, if you drive honda's much, you will understand. Since they have no torque, you have to rev it high, and rather than just dropping the clutch, you modulate it, to keep it pulling, without too much tire spin. However, I'm looking to trade my car for either a 991 Targa, an M3, or an Audi S4. What do you think?
     
  12. Re: I SPIT on your

    I know exactly what you're talking about with the acceleration...people still wonder how I manage to beat them in their '70's Camaro's, '80's - '90's Mustang GT's, etc. in my stock '90 Civic SI. I'd be amazed too, except I know my car, and they can't shift worth $#!T.<A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/wink.gif"></A>
     
  13. Re: I SPIT on your

    What do you mean by modulate? To be acustomed to driving a Honda?

    I dont doubt that a stock S2000 can run a 14 sec 1/4 but videos are a poor sorce of evidence, one can only guess what modifications may have been preformed.

    Oh, and you cant go wrong with the M3.
     
  14. Re: I SPIT on your

    I've had a Prelude before my S2000, and it was the same way. Since all Honda's lack torque, you have to do the clutch modulation thing mentioned before. It works, though i'm working on figuring out exactly why. The best i've come up with is that with a small engine lacking torque, you have to rev higher on a launch, and to keep the wheels from completely spinning where you end up staying in one place, you modulate to keep it half moving/half spinning until you are closer to the powerband. Mind you, this is devastating to your clutch, but it works. Cheers.
     
  15. Re: I SPIT on your

    Wussup if the Car and Driver's test drivers?? WHen the S2000 first debuted, they got 5.3 sec, and now, 6.3?? Wut's wrong with them? And the best rpm to drop the clutch is at 5000rpm, at that rpm, the wheel spin is perfect.

    It seems like people (especially teh Americans) want low and mid-end torque too; therefore, Honda introduced the i-VTEC, according to some insiders, the 2.0L i-VTEC that is found in a Integra Type R will likely to replace S2000's engine to become the "best 2.0 -2.5 litre" engine. Because, it's easier to live with.

    For some people, they like feel when the rpm passes 6000rpm, when the car suddenly flies forward, but some people just like powerful at all rpm. Someone may say it's just to prevent people from speeding in city driving, so it doesn't have much low-end torque.

    Afterall, teh S2000 is just for celebrating Honda's 50th anniversary, and it's getting old now!
     
  16. Re: I SPIT on your

    IS200andS2000, which Kwak Ninja do you have exactly?
    You have a duke 750SS as well? Do you race them? (do trackdays)
    Do you stunt?

     
  17. Re: I SPIT on your

    I have a Ninja 250R. I bought it to learn how to ride without killing myself. After a lot of driving, i got the Ducati. I haven't raced yet. I just ride for fun. I've only been driving motorcycles for about a year, and have no easy access to any tracks. But yeah, i love racing. haha.
     
  18. Re: I SPIT on your

    In reply to the first post.

    You make some good, if ill considered points.

    The fact of the matter is the Honda S2000 really IS a masterpiece of engineering, the points you make about a lack of torque and a need for huge RPM clutch dumps are of course true, but this is not a car built for drag racing or the 'traffic light grand prixs'.

    The S2000 is 1st and formost a sports soft-top, a car built for driving pleasure aimed at the technicly impressed driver, it's a total package built as an axample of Hondas technical abilities. How can one expect mountains of torque from a natuarlly aspirated 2 litre 4 cylinder engined car whose maximum power is made above what most road cars are even able to rev to?

    You seem to be doing what a lot of childen on this site do, and that is to not consider the possibilities, suitabilities or capabilities of a certain design.

    It is like suggesting that a 3 year old child is inept when it can't lift 50 kilos, or that an elderly who man can't bear children has no worth in this world!

    Do you see what I am saying?

    Every design has a purpose, and you need to judge that purpose within the correct context.

    The S2000 was never designed to sell up a storm to the great unwashed...
     
  19. Re: I SPIT on your

    In reply to the first post.

    You make some good, if ill considered points.

    The fact of the matter is the Honda S2000 really IS a masterpiece of engineering, the points you make about a lack of torque and a need for huge RPM clutch dumps are of course true, but this is not a car built for drag racing or the 'traffic light grand prixs'.

    The S2000 is 1st and formost a sports soft-top, a car built for driving pleasure aimed at the technicly impressed driver, it's a total package built as an axample of Hondas technical abilities. How can one expect mountains of torque from a natuarlly aspirated 2 litre 4 cylinder engined car whose maximum power is made above what most road cars are even able to rev to?

    You seem to be doing what a lot of childen on this site do, and that is to not consider the possibilities, suitabilities or capabilities of a certain design.

    It is like suggesting that a 3 year old child is inept when it can't lift 50 kilos, or that an elderly who man can't bear children has no worth in this world!

    Do you see what I am saying?

    Every design has a purpose, and you need to judge that purpose within the correct context.

    The S2000 was never designed to sell up a storm to the great unwashed...
     
  20. Re: I SPIT on your

    That's weird, why has my post duplicated itself?
     
  21. Re: I SPIT on your

    I'm amazed at how selective some people are when reading posts. Did you miss the part where i said "I LIKE THIS CAR" ? Thats right I wrote a huge post on what "wrong" with car and i Still like it for what it has to offer. Again my point in starting this forum is for people to see this car has short comings because many people overate it.
     
  22. Re: I SPIT on your

    What engine this car may be getting in the future dosent solve its issues now.

    Another thought: Correct me if i'm wrong but you like Honda's performance models because they do perform well in areas of handeling, breaking and the accleration is decent. You get these qualites while retaining excelent fuel economy and low insurance costs all for a reasonable price. (more reasons too i'm sure)

    The above are very PRACTICAL reasons to like this car. However you act as though their efforts to boost midrange torque is just to please americans and then you act as though it is rediculous to do so.

    So then Why have a car based on practicality with no Midrange torque?, which would make it difficlt to drive in every day condtions? Dosent sound practical to me?
     
  23. Re: I SPIT on your

    I never claimed you didn't like car, I read your post, it was the post I responded to remember. I merley stated that your comments were, well conceited.

    The S2000 isn't designed to be a practical car either.

    2 Doors, small body, tiny boot. What do you think?
     
  24. Re: I SPIT on your

    Oh no, the low-mid end torque of this car is only enough for city driving, not exactly fast. MAny car journalists say that in normal city driving, the S2000 drives like a normal Accord 2.0.
     
  25. Re: I SPIT on your

    Fine then how or what was Conceded?
     

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