I Think its retarded that...

Discussion in '2000 Hennessey Viper Venom 800TT' started by LaCosaNostra, Dec 17, 2002.

  1. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    I know. No one's questioning the track ability of the 800tt, the car is a beast.

    I find it hard to believe that the Audi R8 could pull only a 10.3 in the 1/4 with slicks. How do the racing slicks differ from drag slicks? The reason I doubt this is because the 800tt and Lingenfelter Vette are both faster while using the cheater slicks, which still have some tread. The R8 has a much higher power to weight ratio than either, and yet the Lingenfelter Vette is a full second quicker? The 800tt on stock Michelin Pilots is only 0.4 behind the R8 on slicks, and is actually .4 faster on slicks.

    I'd like to see a link to where you got these stats if it is indeed possible. If all the stats you posted were true, it would leave some doubt as to the actual acceleration of the Dauer, but I think I'll dig through the Forum a little more to see what I can find. There was also a time of 17.6 seconds on the standing kilometer, which would also put it as the fastest production car(not counting any times achieved on slicks). I can't attest to the accuracy of that one either.
     
  2. #27 1426 cid, Dec 28, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Re: I Think its retarded that...

    http://www.carpages.co.uk/news/audi/audi_v8_engine_milestone_07_05_02.asp:

    "By the end of 2002, the Audi range will feature no less than 7 models powered by V8 engines, including the RS 6 quattro and the forthcoming allroad 4.2 quattro.
    Like the Le Mans-contesting R8 sportscar, the road-going RS 6 quattro is equipped with two intercooled turbochargers, helping to boost the output of the 4.2-litre V8 to 450bhp, and its torque to an impressive 560Nm, delivered right from 1,950rpm to 5,600rpm.
    Performance figures are certainly more track car than executive saloon, the sprint from rest to 62mph taking just 4.9 seconds (3.2secs for Audi R8) and 124mph arriving in only 18 seconds (Audi R8 6.9 seconds). Top speed is electronically limited to 155mph, while the R8 exceeds over 200mph along the famous Mulsanne Straight at Le Mans. "



    http://www.supercars.net/garages/marcusmv3/41v2.html:

    Top Speed 329.9 kph / 205.0 mph
    0 - 60mph 3.3
    0 - 100 mph 5.5
    quarter mile 10.3 / 148
     
  3. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    You can find the test of the R8 at Car & Driver's website, but here's the data panel (Pic 1, below).
    The test for the Jaguar R3 was pusblished in Autocar's 9/25/02 issue, part of their annual 0-100-0 shootout.
    The Benetton-BMW was tested for R&T's 3/87 issue, which predates the common internet as we know it, so you might not find too many links to that particular test. I have the issue, and a portion of the data panel can be found below (Pic 3).

    How can the 800TT and 427TT have such quick quarter mile times? For a start, the Mickey Thompson ET's are designed to handle low inflation rates. This allows a wider footprint, and maximum weight transfer. I don't know about the 427TT, but the 800TT has fully adjustable racing shocks, so one can set the rear to full soft for a good launch.
    But perhaps the biggest answer might lie in: torque. Both cars produce gobs of it. At least 866 lb/ft for the 427TT and 902 lb/ft for the 800TT in Motor Trend's test. Each car carries about 3.8 lbs for each lb/ft of torque. Virtually the same as the Audi R8. And while the Audi has the same amount of torque as the Dauer 962 (516-517 lb/ft), it carries less weight. The Dauer has 4.6 lbs for each lb/ft of torque.
     
  4. #29 khari, Dec 29, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Re: I Think its retarded that...

    Do you know what the 427tt does with its stock tires? If the difference between cheater slicks and stock tires are anything like on the Viper, the Vette's stats might look like this:

    0-60: 2.7
    1/4: 9.92

    The Viper experienced a .8 jump in 0-60 (2.4-3.2) and a .7 jump in the 1/4 (9.9-10.) when switched from cheater slicks to street tires, so one might expect similar from the Vette. The Dauer has a better power/weight ratio, but a lower torque/weight ratio, so the figures for the Dauer might be a little off, but maybe not as much as you make it out to be. The 0-60 is possible, but the 1/4 mile might be just a little exagerated.

    There was also a web address posted by Ajzahn.

    http://www.autoweb-france.com/index.php?rub=3&essai=166

    They mention when something is unverified (such as the top speed) so it's possible they tested it. They came up with a 2.8 0-100km/h and 10.4 in the 1.4. That sounds plausible to me.

    You've sure posted some interesting facts. I look forward to what you post next time (not to put any pressure on you or anything <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A> )
     
  5. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    It's quite possible that the 2001 800tt weighs what you said. The only magazine I own that involves the 800tt is the Supercar shootout and it lists the weight at 35xx (don't have the mag on me). I looked closer later and realized they had tested a 97. Hennesey has probably removed weight since then<A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>
     
  6. #31 Guibo, Dec 30, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Re: I Think its retarded that...

    Yes, I believe your projections of the 427TT on street tires is about right. Assuming that one tests the 427TT on the same tires as the 800TT was tested on (Viper-stock Michelin Pilot Sports). One could also step up to a tire that offers vastly superior grip to those tires, something along the lines of an autocross/road-race spec tire or even those BF Goodrich g/Force tires. Still fully DOT legal.

    Ajzahn is a swell guy. I've read many of his posts and have conversed with him a few times. Of all of the members on these forums, he is without a doubt the most knowledgeable about the Dauer 962 LM. But even when I ask him for a 3rd-party test of that car, he comes up empty.
    http://speed.supercars.net/cBoard?viewThread=true&bottom=195&fID=457&tID=7248
    (Be sure to check out the link I posted there.)

    Here's another interesting article:
    http://members.tripod.com/auto-tuning/celemai/rapide/dauer.htm
    It appears the production Dauers have a host of luxury items that the prototype (from which the known performance specs are attributed) most likely were lacking: full leather interior, electrohydraulics for ride height adjustment, doors, engine compartment hatch, etc. If this is anything like the difference between the race and street CLK GTR's, there's a good chance the road version will be much heavier than the race/prototype version. In the Benz's case, that amounts to about a half-ton difference. The reduction in hp from the prototype Dauer also makes the performance claims that much more difficult to attain.
     
  7. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    Say, for a second, that the weight and power output of the 962 are accurate, the acceleration would then be possible, correct? If the 427tt is capable of 2.7 0-60 on Michelin Pilots (as you mentioned, far from the best road tires available), then the Dauer should be able to droject similar figures, although maybe .1 slower here or there.

    I don't really believe there is a full test on the Dauer 962 LM. I know a few magazines have driven one, but I don't know that any have done serious testing. I think that will change when the 962 continues production very soon.

    Why did you post the third link? It's simply what is written on this site about the Dauer. I would be tempted to believe the prototype had all the amenities you mentioned, otherwise it is just a 962 race car, and I don't think Dauer would have bothered to do any real testing if he knew the car was going to change that dramatically. We don't really know that there ever was a reduction in hp. There's been speculation about it, and I agree it is possible, but not proven. Once again, I think more serious testing will begin once it restarts its production.
     
  8. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    This entire thread was full of intelligent debating. No BS "YOUR A FAG FOR THINKING DIFRENT THEN ME!!!1". At least there are still some mature people out here in the forums.
     
  9. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    And that's the way it should be done<A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A> The sad thing is that there's so few threads like this that they actually stand out when there is one.
     
  10. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    im sorry what is the point with "slicks" a mclaren f1 could kill this time even though it doent have turbos or whatever. its stockso it costs a cool 1,000,000 but thats forr other things.
     
  11. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    Slicks increase grip resulting in faster acceleration. A Mclaren F1 wouldn't come anywhere near matching the acceleration of the 800tt or the 427tt on slicks, but it's similar to the 800tt on stock Michelin Pilots. And yes, the Mclaren costs about 8 times the 800tt, so this isn't the best comparison, is it?
     
  12. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    no, it obviously.
     
  13. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    McLaren F1 GT:
    0-60 mph: 3.3 sec
    0-100 mph: 7.7 sec
    Quarter Mile: 11.6 sec @ 125 mph


    800TT:
    0-60 mph: 2.4 sec
    0-100 mph: 5.5 sec
    Quarter Mile: 9.99 sec @ 138.95 mph


    Venom 800tt (street tires):
    0-60: 3.21
    1/4 mile: 10.71 @ 137.6 mph

    <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>
     
  14. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    just curious, but where did you get those stats? I know the standard f1 does 0-60 in 3.2, and the LM is estimated at 2.9 (although I don't know if it ever achieved it).
     
  15. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    Khari:
    I think the 427TT on street Michelin Pilots (but with suspension adjusted for road racing, ie. stiffer in back) will probably be about as quick as the Dauer. I'd be very surprised if the Dauer can dip below 3.0 seconds, and here's why:
    R&T tested the Champion Motorsports 911 GT1, a pure racing maching on pure racing slicks. It weighed 2480 lbs and had an estimated 600 hp with 480 lb/ft of torque. That equates to 4.1 lb/hp, and 5.2 lbs for each lb/ft of torque. A bit higher than the Dauers, and you'd think that it would be slower than the Dauer. Until you consider those pure racing slicks. That car did 0-60 in 3.4 seconds and the quarter mile in 10.9 @ 139.5. In terms of layout, weight, weight distribution, and torque, it is much closer to the Dauer than the Dauer is to either the 427TT or the 800TT. As such, I'd think its times would be fairly representative of what the Dauer could acheive.
    Another thing to keep in mind is the performance of the Diablo VT 6.0. A mid-engine car with 550 horses, but with an ace up its sleeve: AWD traction. Even with all 4 wheels breaking traction and spinning off the starting line, it can do no better than 3.4-3.6 seconds to 60 mph.

    Regarding that third link, sorry. Didn't realize that info was already posted for the Dauer here. But I do believe Dauer's prototype did *not* have the luxury items mentioned because it would be working against budget to include them. All he had to do was worry about homologation (which does not address final luxury amenities featured in a road car) and the ability to field a couple of worthy, durable cars that would at the very least meet the minimum requirements of the regulations.

    On the F1 LM, the only documented test I've seen of it showed 0-60 in 3.9 seconds. And that was with Le Mans veteran and McLaren F1 ace Andy Wallace at the wheel, tire warmers, cornering ballasts for optimum weight distribution, reduced tire pressures, and full McLaren support crew in tow. The same test where it set the previous 0-100-0 record.
     
  16. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    First you agree to my predictions of the 427tt, then say that the Dauer should be about as quick, but it probably can't dip below 3.0? I'm not following your logic on that one.

    As for the Motorsports 911 GT1, those are big differences in power and torque to weight ratios and, as with the Audi R8, racing slicks seem not to have anywhere near the ability of even cheater slicks to improve times. The article you posted (also on Supercars.net) said:

    "On a dry racetrack, even the 517 lb ft of torque that arrives at 5,000rpm cannot break the grip of the 265/35ZR 18 rear tyres on their 11J x 18-inch wheels"

    So obviously traction is not a problem, so those pure racing slicks probably won't make up for 130hp, 37 lb-ft of torque, and 100lbs. The Dauer also had custom tires, which are still a far cry from racing slicks, but if there's no problems with traction, it shouldn't be that big of a factor. Also, I doubt the power output of the Gt1 were truely estimates, maybe manufacturers claims?

    I'm still lead to believe the prototype that you seem to think achieved these stats would have had all the Amenities. Why would Dauer bother to do full performace tests on a race spec Porsche 962 and then post them as stats of the Dauer (because without the amenities, that's all the Dauer really is)? And, even 8 years later, the weight is still listed as 2381 lbs, and the power still 730hp both on Dauer's site, and just about everywhere on the net. I'd think it would have been changed by now, and customers would have complained if their car was indeed missing 100hp, and weighing a few hundred pounds heavier.

    That is obviously an underperforming car, and isn't what the car is truelly capable of. I don't know where the 2.9 came from, but is probably an estimate by Mclaren, I don't really know. I belive the 0-60 for the stock Mclaren is 3.2, correct? I don't know whether that's another estimate, but the Dauer should easily be able to surpass a time like that.
     
  17. #42 1426 cid, Dec 31, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Re: I Think its retarded that...

    I get most of the stats. i post from a huge stack of car magazines from years and years of subscriptions. <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/tongue.gif"></A> :p

    Actually i get them from www.fast-autos.net (and MOTORTREND) <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>
     
  18. #43 1426 cid, Dec 31, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Re: I Think its retarded that...

    Khari:
    "just curious, but where did you get those stats? I know the standard f1 does 0-60 in 3.2, and the LM is estimated at 2.9 (although I don't know if it ever achieved it). "

    I get most of the stats. i post from a huge stack of car magazines from years and years of subscriptions. :p

    Actually i get them from www.fast-autos.net (and MOTORTREND) <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>
     
  19. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    Khari:
    Whoa, careful now. Try to examine my entire statement in its complete context:

    “I think the 427TT on street Michelin Pilots (but with suspension adjusted for road racing, ie. stiffer in back) will probably be about as quick as the Dauer.”

    Notice my clarifier in parenthesis. I’m saying with the same full-soft setup most likely used in the MT comparo (vs. a more racetrack-oriented setup, much like LPE used for the C&D Supercar compare), the 0-60 on the 427TT would probably be in the 2.7-second range. And a statement reading “about as quick as the Dauer” does not mean exactly the same (2.7 for both).


    “Also, I doubt the power output of the Gt1 were truely estimates, maybe manufacturers claims?”

    That’s exactly what it says in the test of the CLK-GTR article (wherein they compared the stats from both). 600 hp was probably the limit considering the car was running with restrictors in that class of racing. Remember how the F1 GTR puts out less hp than the standard F1? In any case, 99% of the figures you see in major motoring magazines are indeed estimates. Dyno testing is rarely done, except in specialist motor magazines.


    “On a dry racetrack, even the 517 lb ft of torque that arrives at 5,000rpm cannot break the grip of the 265/35ZR 18 rear tyres on their 11J x 18-inch wheels.”

    Ha, the rear tires of the Dauer are 265mm? Hmmm, the folklore of the Dauer continues even further. Anyway, that sentence makes no mention of whether it’s from a rolling start or from a standing start. It could be at any point on a racetrack.
    I'm not saying full racing slicks guarantee a perfect start each and every single time. But they do increase those odds considerably. Witness that cars like the Audi R8 have no problem smoking their tires from a start. Ditto the F1 cars, which are on FAR softer compounds than what you'd find on a street car like the Dauer (assuming you turn off the traction control). If an AWD Diablo VT can break traction, I see no reason why a Dauer couldn't.


    “I'm still lead to believe the prototype that you seem to think achieved these stats would have had all the Amenities. Why would Dauer bother to do full performace tests on a race spec Porsche 962 and then post them as stats of the Dauer (because without the amenities, that's all the Dauer really is)?”

    Who knows. Time changes, and so can the mind of an engineer. The point still remains that Dauer had no incentive to complete all of the amenities fitment to the Dauer, since all he needed was a worthy car or two for the Le Mans 24 Hour race. If you want to believe it was done with full amenities, then that’s your right to do so. It would help if you could find us a picture of the development test mule to verify it. In any event, read the opening paragraph of the Dauer in that link I provided. It clearly indicates only the later Dauers had the luxury amenities, not the early ones (to which the performance figures are attributed).
    You have to understand, I’ve been following the claims attributed to the Dauer, and as recently as 5 months ago, you could indeed see the reference to the reduced power output figures via Option Auto’s (now-defunct) website. You had to use the “cache” feature of Google’s search engine, but there it was.


    “I belive the 0-60 for the stock Mclaren is 3.2, correct?”

    That is the figure Autocar got from the McLaren F1, but it wasn’t a customer stock F1. It was the prototype, XP5, which was well run-in. Same one that set the speed record at Ehra-Lessien, although without the stock rev limiter observed.
     
  20. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    I don't have much time so I'll make this brief

    "Ha, the rear tires of the Dauer are 265mm? Hmmm, the folklore of the Dauer continues even further"

    lol I missed that one. Just a typo, it states that they're 335mm on the spec sheet assosciated with that text, as well as on Supercars.net.

    As to whether it had all the amenities or not, my guess is as good as yours. Some may have been added later, I don't have any pictures to indicate otherwise, and by the looks of it, neither do you. Personally I'd be happy waiting untill it continues production, maybe we'll see some real performance testing.

    "That is the figure Autocar got from the McLaren F1, but it wasn’t a customer stock F1. It was the prototype, XP5"

    Yeah I've heard about the XP5, and I knew it set the top speed record, but I wasn't aware it was also tested for acceleration. Either way I don't believe there is a significant difference between the two, maybe one or two tenths of a second (in terms of acceleration)
     
  21. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    This piece of crap Gay viper is not faster then "sports cars'
    Put this hunk of junk against a Lotus Elise Gt1 on a Race track
    or a Stock Mclaren F1 (on cheat slicks)too and we'll see who'll win in a Top speed shoot-out and we'll see how much faster this is then sports cars,lol
    No body cares about it's claimed 0-60 time,lol a real race isn't
    0-60 and it isn't only a 1/4 mile long,muahahahahaha
    Mclaren F1LM does 0-60 in under 3 sec too but it also hadles like a dream ,it looks good and it's not Domestic.

    IMPORTS RULE
     
  22. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    if IMPORTS RULE, then why the F**K are you posting here??
     
  23. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    AntiDomestic, if you are "ANTI DOMESTIC" THEY WHY ARE YOU POSTING ON A DOMESTIC CAR FORUM???
     
  24. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    "This piece of crap Gay viper is not faster then "sports cars'"

    ummmm.....have u seen the performance this car is capable of? (faster then most sports cars)

    800TT
    0-60 mph: 2.4 sec
    0-100 mph: 5.5 sec
    Quarter Mile: 9.99 sec @ 138.95 mph
    Skidpad: 1.06g
    Top Speed: 230 mph
    Braking, 60-0 mph: 110 ft
    Slalom Speed: 75.1 mph


    "Put this hunk of junk against a Lotus Elise Gt1 on a Race track
    or a Stock Mclaren F1 (on cheat slicks)too and we'll see who'll win in a Top speed shoot-out and we'll see how much faster this is then sports cars"


    why would you put these cars on a TRACK to do a top speed shoot-out???
    (so comparing the 800TT with a Elsise (LOL) and a Mclaren determines if it is faster then sports cars??)

    "a real race isn't 0-60 and it isn't only a 1/4 mile long"

    so what about all the drag races in the world, those aren't actually races??? <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/confused.gif"></A>


    "Mclaren F1LM does 0-60 in under 3 sec too but it also hadles like a dream ,it looks good and it's not Domestic."

    i believe it does 0-60 around 3.3 (and it cost lots of $$$)

    BTW, what do you have against domestic cars???
    (the fact that you say "DOMESTIC" would mean u live in America?)
     
  25. Re: I Think its retarded that...

    I'm sure that somebody has already stated this but I didn't read the second and third pages. Who cares if a McLaren has a faster top speed than the viper(which it might not be since I think that they are about the same. around 235mph? I'm not sure.). Also, there is nothing wrong with the Vipers capabilities around the race track. 75.? mph in the slalom is real nice. I don't believe there are more than a handfull of other cars out there that can pull that time off and I don't think that the McLaren is one of them(don't quote me on that). The numbers that the 800TT spits out are very nice. There is no way that anyone that is serious and unbiased can deny that. Also, somebody on the first page said something about wanting the 0-60 times for the Viper w/o slicks. Well, 2.7 seconds is w/o slicks.
     

Share This Page