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Discussion in 'Videos and Sounds' started by CSTUBS, Sep 21, 2007.
Chevy Malibu >>>>> Carrera GT You can't post a good lap time if you can't get it into first gear.
automatic Subaru WRX = best car of all time
*Steve Millen as "Professional Racer"
*Mike Monticello (an excellent driver and ardent motorcycle rider, but who has no race experience) as "Enthusiast Driver"
*Sam Mitani as "Club-level Racer," "being a graduate of numerous racing schools with a few races under my belt"
HARDLY a beginner driver... these guys test cars for a living FFS.
Ah, here's a wonderful test. On a sopping wet day, when a professional and experienced driver's times would be exaggerated. With a car's that are nearly mismatched perforance wise, where the track drivers found the z06 best on the track, only the pro found it perferable anywhere else (something along the lines of what we've been saying?) and the enthusiest didn't care for it all, choosing the slowest and assumable easiest to drive fast (knowing only what I know about the C6 and RR 911's).
Not that any of it matters, as none of them are cars we're discussing
This coming from the guy who once harped on me for the RELEVANCE of a statement I used as an analogical example.
-1 for apple pie.
Also, since the average person would be #$%#ed on a superbike, the only logical conclusion is that they are all shit.
This is true, and is one of the only coherent comments so far. When car A driven at 8/10ths is still faster than car B driven at 10/10ths, car A is superior on the track. The fact that you need more talent to extract the extra 20% doesn't matter.
"The fact that the Z06 is nervous at the limit doesn't mean much when it's #$%#ing 5 seconds faster around an average racetrack."
UGHH, so it's 5 seconds faster when it's driven by an experienced driver. COOL, but a n00b driver can spin it 10 times during the same lap and then **** your 5 seconds difference.
You still don't see it? you need to be fUcking Schumacher to extract the best from certain cars, and YES, in capable hands they can post EXCELLENT laptimes, but the average driver, like the idiots that streetrace their cars and post their videos on StreetFire.net or YouTube (you know, like in the video posted in this thread) will have a HARD time getting anywhere close to the times that the Stig/Magnusen/Roehrl/Von Saurma posted in their cars.
So, we take those 2 cars with those 2 drivers and "Throw them on a race track" to "see who wins".
And who wins?
Notice that I never said that the M6 would win over the Z06 or the other way around, and that's because I have my doubts unlike many of you that think that "ajzahn's" lists are the bible of cars.
The point here is that there is absolutely no way to quantify how "hard" a car is to drive fast. It's irrelevant to our discussions here.
If you're to believe you can drive a z06 at 8/10ths and not lose a just few seconds. Going 10/10 is a matter of effort/courage, not talent.
We can't go by what magazines said about how HARD is to drive the Z06 at the limit? or the M6?
And why is it irrelevant?
this would certainly be the mindset of one who takes professional lap times as the sole factor of judgement, ignoring any judgement of a car that can't be expressed in numerical fashion.
If this were the sole way performance comparisons are managed, there would not be comparisons. If there was no other factor involved, arguments over cars would cease. there would be two times, and discussion past that besides what is objective (styling) and what might be found to be personally appealing (price/wheelchair lifts) would end.
"UGHH, so it's 5 seconds faster when it's driven by an experienced driver. COOL, but a n00b driver can spin it 10 times during the same lap and then **** your 5 seconds difference."
Says who? The Z06 has a shit ton of grip and accumulates speed effortlessly. That in and of itself means it would be fast in your or my hands. Just because it has a ton of power doesn't mean you have to be on the throttle in the corners, risking spinning out. What makes the M6 so much easier to drive? The paddles? I drive a manual every day, so that wouldn't make much of a difference. It's still got 500 bhp and it's still RWD, only it weighs a shit ton more than the Z06 and almost certainly understeers a lot more. So yeah, how are you so certain here?
It's irrelevant because it's subjective. If you've ever picked up a magazine you can't tell me you haven't noticed that there are often conflicting opinions. How hard a car is to drive at the limit depends on many factors unrelated to the car itself. It depends on things like, road condition, driving style, what car the editor has just gotten out of, what car they get into next. Preconceptions also enter into the equation.
Now you're being ignorant.
"The Z06 has a shit ton of grip and accumulates speed effortlessly."
...and then you get snap oversteer and find yourself running into a tree. Seriously Blitzchnell, WTF, everybody knows that the Z06 is very difficult to drive at the limit, I can't believe you want to argue that...
When every magazine says the same it's not subjective anymore. It has been empirically demonstrated a certain quality of the car.
I don't have access to magazines right now but I know I've read reviews where the reviewer has said just the opposite.
edit: Just for fun, I watched the Top Gear review on youtube and, although I did miss the part about snap oversteer and trees, I did catch Jesus Christ himself say:
"it's so controllable, you even have time halfway through the bend to check out the g-meter on the head up display""
You get snap oversteer when you aren't pushing it? Of course it's hard to drive AT THE LIMIT, but you don't have to be pushing that hard when you have 5 seconds to lose to the bloke who is sweating balls trying to keep up in the M6.
<A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/grin.gif"></A>
Highs: Delicious, ferocious V-8; as easy to live with as a Saturn but doesn't make you look like a wuss.
Lows: A chassis that doesn't know how to communicate and snap-oversteers at will, inexcusably flimsy seats.
The Verdict: Swaggers like a bad-ass and is at times unpredictable. Most of all, an unbelievable performance bargain.
"On our first drive of the Z06 in Europe, we noticed the Vette's chassis didn't make the driver feel confident, but on smooth racetracks, the chassis was more or less benign. But Grattan's track gave the Z06 fits. It never felt comfortable or sure of itself and gave us all disconnected, spooky feelings that were only exasperated by that booster rocket waiting to be unleashed. "Only qualified drivers should be handed the keys," warned Phillips.
If the Z06 encountered any kind of bump or lump in the pavement as it was exiting a corner, the result was a nearly instantaneous outward snap of the tail. It was so sensitive to bumps that the Vette uncovered lumps in the pavement we never knew were thereeven though we've done hundreds of laps at Grattan in stiffly sprung race cars."
Yes. Now you go back to where I said "conflicting opinions". Like how it's as easy to live with as a Saturn to C&D, but absolutely useless on the road for Mr. Clarkson. Tiff didn't say anything about snap oversteer either.