p papers

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by SEABEE, Apr 6, 2016.

  1. Well then that's settled. It's as simple as that!
     
  2. No doubt, it's certainly easier said than done. But the simplicity of the idea - lower taxes, stricter punishments - is what can make it effective IMO..
     
  3. separate the people who are making rules from those who are competing


    its like the police policing the police
    it doesnt work because those who would bend the rules are in charge of making and enforcing the rules
     
  4. Yes, Walper is very, very dumb.

    And he does have tendency to spew out ill-constructed theories without making any effort to vindicate his claims when faults are pointed out. Trying to have a coherent debate with that person is doomed to failure.

    Add to that the douchey know-it-all-attitude. I probably wouldn't mind that if he actually had an inkling of things he rants about but sadly he doesn't.

    Take this sentence as an example:

    "profit lets you employ good people and pay more to keep them"

    -Revenue/net income, not profit. Excess income is often turned into profit instead of investing into company assets (such as employees)

    -Joe's Pizza is doing well with 2 employees. Joe's Pizza is not going to hire more employees just because they could afford it. The owner will spend the extra profit on spray tans instead. Potentially, Joe's Pizza could expand if the business creates enough net income and thus provide jobs.

    -Both the guys working at Joe's Pizza make $8.25/hr. Frank does his job as well as he can, Gene doesn't give a shit but does an adequate job. Frank will not get a raise, see spray tans.

    -The owner of Joe's Pizza, Joe, could buy a Piztron-3000-O-matic (a pizza robot) or alternatively source the pizza manufacturing to North Korea and fire his employees. While automation increases productivity, the total economic impact of the decision both locally and globally would be very difficult to determine.

    Automation has provided us with the modern living standard we enjoy today, yet it's not without its problems. Returning to a hereditary classist society even in the West is a thing that could happen. Think something along the lines of UAE or Qatar but replace oil fields with production facilities. Yes, it's a bit of en extreme example and won't happen overnight. But consider this: Since 1970 automation and productivity in the United States has massively increased. The economy has more than quadrupled. Yet household median income has stagnated. Purchasing power-adjusted average weekly income has decreased.

    Simply not taking all that into account is a bit dumb.

    Then we could talk about how Joe's Pizza creates a hedge fund that is used in a ponzi scheme to sell profitable credit default swaps of pizzas that do not exist.

    This is the kind of thing that the Panama papers is really about. Or the money Joe used to lube up some politicians in pursuit of more favourable legislation.

    Transparency is really all we ask.
     
  5. "I can understand how politicians hiding money looks extremely bad, but lets face it, nobody is asking the important question of, 'how can we get people to hide their money in our country. Why are people leaving our country'"

    I can understand how politicians #$%#ing children in Cambodia looks extremely bad but let's face it, nobody is asking the important question of "how can we get people to #$%# children in our country. Why are people leaving our country"
     
  6. Nice write-up with the Joe's Pizza example, especially considering it's written for someone absolutely not interested in being educated. You have more faith in people than I do for that matter.
     
  7. this is good
    Joe doesnt give a #$%# about frank and gene
    we are all franks and genes, but a lot of time the knee jerk reaction is to identify with joe, telling frank and gene to shut up and work harder so that you can one day become part of the 1%.
    I felt this way when i was younger and leaned a little more right wing

    I think this explains the feeling i used to have and what I see other people saying:


    “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.”

    ― Ronald Wright, A Short History of Progress

    I even cringe at the use of the word 'socialism' because in America we have been conditioned that its a dirty word
     
  8. A temporarily embarrassed millionaire might be the healthier mindset out of the two. At least up to a certain point.

    Common sense can be used. The anus has nerves for a reason: To accurately determine the amount of dry anal rape received, regardless of whether it's caused by corrupt socialists or corrupt neoliberals.

     
  9. and when you close your eyes it just feels great
     
  10. I just watched an interesting document about the shipbreaking industry in Bandladesh. 10- year-old kids working without any protection in deadly conditions, people losing their lives, limbs or eyesights on a daily basis, without any compensation when this happens. Adult workers being paid $2 for 14 hours of hazardous work, underage workers less than $1.

    Container ship operators like to break up the ships in places like that because there are no laws whatsoever regarding the environment/work safety/salary/any ethical treatment of human beings. In case there are, they are easily avoided by placing a few bribes in the right place.

    So should USA/EU/Commonwealth/Japan etc. have similar standards in order to compete with 3rd world countries? Company is dumping cadmium in the river? Ok no problem! Workers organizes a protest? Company executes everyone involved in the protest. Ok no problem!

    Or should we maybe try to make international corporations who grossly exploit poor conditions in 3rd world countries face some consequences and put pressure on these countries to get their shit together?

    I think the second option is the better one but Walper probably disagrees.
     
  11. Bimp

    This guy has got the hang of it.

    It's a bit of a paradox that productivity is increasing but average/median income is stagnating/decreasing.

    It's a bit funny how some politicians and organisations cling to protectionism and desperately try to maintain the current status quo, while blaming low-income countries that are struggling with the exact same issues. The amount of industrial jobs in China has been steadily declining for 20 years now. Same shit in many other industrializing/recently industrialized countries.

    If Mexicans had actually stolen all the lost jerbs, they'd have like 250% employment right now. Which they don't.

    Talking about the wrong kind of "solutions" to the problem, a certain orange discount-mussolini does like to suggest those. A lot.
     
  12. [​IMG]
    Scary stuff. Can everyone who is replaced by a robot become a software engineer? Big questions coming up sooner than most would like to admit.

    I think the idea of a basic income is going to be at the forefront of debate, and within 20 years will probably be implemented in some form. If its not, I dont really know how the world will work in 20 years when only the people who own the robots are rich, and those who can program them are employed. I think a basic income funded primarily by taxes on the corporations that benefit most is probably the best solution.

    A guy quoted in the article says that he does not think we will see truly autonomous taxis in our lifetime, and that a driver will be there to assist the AI. I really dont think thats true. The pace of technology makes me think we will have driverless service cars in ten years. The technology is getting there, and there are real economic pressures to achieve that. The first company to own a fleet of driverless taxis/trucks/delivery vans will be enormously wealthy.
     
  13. Not sure if basic income is the solution and if it is, how should it be implemented.

    In any case, current social security networks in Europe are inefficient, inflexible and cumbersome. They discourage working, or even being active (studying, training courses, volunteer work) in some situations, are fiscally unsustainable, yet easy to abuse once you get "into the system".

    The lack of social security networks in the US, combined with the increasing unemployment and declining real wages has the potential of creating some proper social unrest. Get fired? Get sick? Have an accident? Give birth? Get dumped by spouse? You're fucked forever, amen. Don't you dare to dream of ever going to a fucking dentist or sending your children to college.
     
  14. the cool thing about basic income is its simplicity
    abuse isnt a thing because everybody gets it. rich poor or whatever. I guess youd have to look out for fake people? but im sure they could make it hard to collect if you were anybody other than that person

    eliminating the entire beauracracy of the US welfare system (signing people up, checking for abuse, etc) would free up a bunch of money, though not even close to enough to pay for it

    I dont see what else would work when humans have created an economy so good it barely needs human labor to perpetuate it
    what do those people do?
    sure we could make up jobs for them to do to keep them busy.
    But society as a whole should benefit. Govt should educate them, empower them to be creative and entrepreneurs. this would be much easier for more people to do if they didnt have to work 40+ hrs at unimportant jobs just to keep a roof over their head and food on their tables.
     
  15. Well good luck promoting that in the US.

    You will be shot.
     
    ETB4U likes this.
  16. i only promote it on the internet
    irl i am a wage slave who is looking to find a way to enslave others so i can free myself.
    just have to get 2 people under me to get started, then they 2 people, then they get 2 people and voila
    american drems
     
    HippoCrushEverything likes this.
  17. Yep. What they said...
     
  18. Yea it's real.

    The problem is that the trial is limited to unemployed people exclusively. That's no way to gather objective data. My gay poll was better.

    Still, I hope that they get positive results with the sampling they are working with. I'd welcome almost anything that would rid the social security network of all the unnecessary bureucracy that has accumulated during past decades.
     
  19. It really is. Especially when considering the very nature of the US economy. The whole structure heavily relies on the American middle class, a population that has, until very recently, been enjoying a much higher standard of living than its counterparts in any other country. Reduce the purchasing power of this population and you're left with what? Exports? Kek.
     
  20. all of the basic income trials are pretty small scale and incomplete. its still early.
    I really have no doubt that a country like finland or japan or something could pull it off. Im less optimistic about a huge country like the USA, with a culture built around individuality and shitting on those below you (they are below you because they are worse than you)

    I think youd have to build a culture around it, and education would be crucial. Teach kids about money/finance/practical urban adult survival skills. College educations would need to be close to free because so many people would need to retrain/train themselves into jobs that are in demand
     
  21. I live in Helsinki and I didn't know about this :s

    Hernesaari is like 4km away, I should go there tomorrow and test drive these to get some insight.
     
  22. Maybe Brutopia

    Sadly no futuristic utopia here.
     
  23. I'm curious. What percentage of someone elses work is yours?

    I'm also curious. If owning 100% of someones labour is Slavery, at what percentage is it not slavery?


    For those of you that think tax is a good thing, why discriminate with it? How about setup a flat tax and downsize government so at least that revenue can get to people that need it. Instead, it seems the western world likes to take money, pay their friends first, and eventually some of it makes it down to a road, or flint michigan's water.

    Tax is theft, stop stealing from others. ..at minimum, you could at least not discriminate with it.
     

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