Re: Corvette VS NSX

Discussion in '2003 Chevrolet Corvette 50th Anniversary' started by Gamer55, Aug 9, 2002.

  1. But it makes your perception of what is "better" VASTLY different from those who are NOT well off enough to have an $80,000 automobile handed to them.
     
  2. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from PABSTmullet</i>
    <b>take that dang vette over any those other shitters mentioned, including that dang NSX, want my car to have a real name, not just a bunch of letters put together</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    good one<!-- Signature -->
     
  3. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Guibo</i>
    <b>mpg:
    Consumer Reports is good for some things. Rating dishwashers, detergent, hammers, kid's bicycles, some electronics. But rating cars? I'd trust a C&D, or R&T, or EVO, or J.D. Power report (long-term or otherwise) over anything they may have to say about cars. Hell, they couldn't even get a car wax test right. They rated that blue Zymol stuff from the Chicago factory as #1 not too long ago. Despite the fact that it is just a variation of a Turtle Wax formula. I tried that very same wax before I read the test and was only marginally impressed with it. The REAL Zymol wax, however, is a different ballgame.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    What are you talking about??? Consumer's Report Auto Magazine is totally separate from the other Consumer's Report commodities you just listed. Consumer's Report Auto Magazine is world renowned and respected, while I haven't even heard of J.D. Power and it seems to me like the American Muscle fans are the only ones who know use it as a reference. Consumer's Report Auto Magazine uses the opinions of car owners (for empirical evidence), automotive experts, mechanics, and automotive assemblers. But all these individuals are "untrustable" by your definition. And yes I trust C&D and R&T for PERFORMANCE numbers only since they never assess the reliability, longevity, and build quality anyways. And I do not know what type of assessment that JD Power report uses but like Zanardi 50 said, the NSX recieved the highest rating of reliability in JD Power anyways, so why try and divert my reference and make an ill invested attempt to cheapen my argument by saying that "Consumer's Report Auto Magazine is not credible" when its uses credible assessment and is world renowned unlike JD Power.<!-- Signature -->
     
  4. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Guibo</i>
    <b>BMW M:
    Now you're starting to sound like those nannies who cry out that cars like the Viper are too dangerous. C'mon, these cars have progressive throttles. You have a brain connected a right foot. Just don't use all three like ON/OFF switches (which they aren't), and you'll have no problems.
    Funny how the Z06 still beat them all in the wet, no? And it didn't even have the ideal weight distribution for laying down the power and torque. Actually, this is not surprising. C&D did a comparo of a C5 vs. a 996 Carrera C4 (AWD) on a wet autocross course a few years ago. Both cars turned in identical times, when driven by a pro, either with each car's active handling system on or off. The amateur, however, was able to lap faster in the C5 in either mode than he could with the Carrera 4. Both drivers lapped quickest in the C5 in competition mode in the wet.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    You know Guibo, up until a few posts ago I actually thought you were knowledgable and fair, but now I'm starting to think that you're an ignorant person that likes to twist around what other people say. First you say that you don't trust the credibility of a WORLD renowned Consumer's Report Auto Magazine even though is uses automotive experts, mechanics, assemblers, and owners experience in its report. Now you call my mind frame a granny type? When did I say that it's "dangerous to drive a Viper". You should learn how to read. I said that R & T (professional drivers who are better than you and I) claimed that the Z06 is to torquey thus making it more difficult to control in wet weather conditons. The comparison was between a 911 Carrera, BMW M3, and the Corvette Z06. The M3 and the 911 were tested to be the better "overall handlers" as they have super traction that's not matched by the Z06. R & T said that the Z06 is a superb handler in "dry conditions" but got outhandled in conditions involving precipitation which the M3 and 911 mastered. So instead of taking a cheap shot at me, why don't you think about what I am trying to say. And it's not just "my opinion" as I have provided a credible reference. Let me guess you think that C & D is more credible then R & T because it's a counterargument to what you're presenting to the table?<!-- Signature -->
     
  5. Dude, us enthuasiasts konw what the hell as r%cer is, anybody who drives a japan-mobile, be it a bunch of letters strung together or be it a civic or whatever, to us US enthusiasits any car from japan is r%ce, no matter what its built for. at least this is how i see it<!-- Signature -->
     
  6. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from BMW M</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from PABSTmullet</i>
    <b>take that dang vette over any those other shitters mentioned, including that dang NSX, want my car to have a real name, not just a bunch of letters put together</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    See it's stereotypical morons like this guy that piss me off!!! A well refined exotic supercar like the NSX is an automobile with a bunch of letters put together? Why don't you go and do some research before you run your ignorant and uneducated mouth? I'm too tired explaining reasons as to why you're an idiot and why the NSX is a great car, so why don't you spend 2 minutes of your worthless time to read previous posts instead of further proving my point of the ignorance of American Muscle fans.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Boy, your the ignorant one. I know this car has its merits (even though i may be considered 'trailer trash'). I can do research same as anybody, and in my research the vette (with its real, historically vauled name) beats this dang r$ce rocket in every aspect. 290hp, watch out now, r^ce is coming!!! (i'm tryin to use sarcasm here, case you didn't pick that up on your own their sonny)<!-- Signature -->
     
  7. R!ce is not any japanese car! Where the hell are you from? R!ce is any Civic, Cavaleir, or Focus or Lambo with stupid Clear altezzas, decals all over, a oversize wing body kit etc etc. Look out r!ce indeed, ever hear of the Supra? How about a Eclipse GSX? Maybe the Skyline, all great cars. What do you drive, because we can all call it mullet mobile by your standard (or maybe you would not mind?). Where I am (Northern Colorado) and where I hang around (street, occasionaly a trip to see how we do on the strip) a r!cer is a r!ce boy, or someone who just thinks Fast and the Furious is true. Man, either the slang is very different somewhere, or most of you people don't even race ever at all. It's not like I'm some sort of hard core gearhead and I know this.<!-- Signature -->
     
  8. BMW M
    If what you say about 'NH is true, then thats a lot BS and I'm not pleased at it either. But I don't see a lot of forum topics bashing imports on the US car forums. I don't think 'NH is a good example then. My point of veiw is my own, and that is:
    Its a beutiful world in which there are so many different ways to get fun and class out of a car. If I get the money, I am going to expirience them all. Rotary, efficiency, displacement, NA, turbo, supercharger, MR, FWD, RWD, everything.
    Thats why I don't beleive that most true muscle fans or import fans or whatever fans are so immature. I mean, theoreticly, if you can't really get a great car untill you have worked hard for it in most cases, you really value you investment, and you actually look at whats out there and why. I've seen that most of the people who have actual performance cars are pretty respecttful, unless they are just insecure about something. The people that slam this and that are often the ones who will "someday" have a fine machine.
    These are resons that I think that while, yes, many of the people here, maybe even most, are ignorant as all hell, the true fans of this and that are not. And even on this site, in the real forums, not the indies, I see plenty of balanced minds if you look for them.
    Personaly, whenever I feel like it, I will show the fools why they are wrong, and argue it as long as it is ammusing enough to hold my attention when I've nothing else to do.<!-- Signature -->
     
  9. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from PABSTmullet</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from BMW M</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from PABSTmullet</i>
    <b>take that dang vette over any those other shitters mentioned, including that dang NSX, want my car to have a real name, not just a bunch of letters put together</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    See it's stereotypical morons like this guy that piss me off!!! A well refined exotic supercar like the NSX is an automobile with a bunch of letters put together? Why don't you go and do some research before you run your ignorant and uneducated mouth? I'm too tired explaining reasons as to why you're an idiot and why the NSX is a great car, so why don't you spend 2 minutes of your worthless time to read previous posts instead of further proving my point of the ignorance of American Muscle fans.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Boy, your the ignorant one. I know this car has its merits (even though i may be considered 'trailer trash'). I can do research same as anybody, and in my research the vette (with its real, historically vauled name) beats this dang r$ce rocket in every aspect. 290hp, watch out now, r^ce is coming!!! (i'm tryin to use sarcasm here, case you didn't pick that up on your own their sonny)</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Thank you for further proving my point on the ignorance of American Muscle fans. Boy the ignorant idiots don't stop piling up in this forum do they? See my point Guibo, sparetire, and bigrob? Besides you three, every American muscle fan that has made a post in this forum, has done it in the manner which I condemned in my lengthy post on the previous page. This idiot gets mad when I say he doesn't understand the meaning of the word "r!cer" and he proves his idiocy by giving the wrong definition. Hey moron, a "r!cer" is ANY car (not just japanese) that is modified aesthetically to make a car appear fast rather than doing engine mods on a their car. R!cer mods include custom paint job, wings, and stickers. And you're a complete idiot if you think that the NSX is a r!cer and that 290 bhp is weak. Just to show you that r!ce is not "limited" to japanese cars, here are some American r!cers better known as "POTATO CARS".<!-- Signature -->
     
  10. Vette has amazing loss of value, I got a 1 year old one and it had lost 40% off new price when I bought it.
    Also quality is crap, cylinder-head replaced, knocking-sensor replaced, new brakediscs front(cracked&bent), rearwheel bearing replaced, new cat and all this within 15000 miles!!!
    Also it leaks air around the windows(Targa) something awful >130 mph which I seriously don't think should happen on a car made after 1980 and it consumes about 1 gallon of oil/5000 miles without GM "finding any problem" with the #$%#ing thing.
    CRAP, CRAP and more CRAP. Still handles well and goes like a rocket but all these problems is pissing me off, this despite the fact that the quality is tons better than the Viper(2 mates got Vipers).
     
  11. Sounds like a lemon to me. Theres only 1 Corvette that IVe really ever seen in the shop often, and its a brand spankin new Millenium Yellow Z06. He has some wierd problems with the engine, and it has hardly any miles. Pretty sad. But that definitley isnt normal behavior for a Corvette, the ones I see around usually go for about 20,000 miles before any major problems kick in. And those are usually covered under the warranty.

    Oh, and as for this whole depriciation thing...

    Ive seen 1999 NSXs going for around $60,000 USD. Thats around 67% of the original value held. I see many 1999 Corvetets going for about $25,000 USD, thats around 56% of it's value maintained. Ofcourse, there are LOTs (and I mean LOTs) of variables that come into play here, but the basic idea is that the amount of value the average NSX retains is in general isnt over 10% - 20% more than the amount of original value maintained by the Corvette. And since the NSX costs about 50% more than the Vette in the first place, it doesnt make sense to pay twice as much for a fifth more resale value. And considering that this particular Vette is an anniversary edition, it will eventually become a collector's item, which will greatly boost it's resale value in years to come.
     
  12. How do you twin turbo an Inline 4 GSR? Like they do on the Supra?<!-- Signature -->
     
  13. lots of info i see is posted here let me just point out one thing: this isnt meant to be raced!! the z06 will definitly whoop acura and honda s2000 they only have a 250 hp engine anywayz... thats half of corvette bhp (almost) i say this car cud even whoop a nsx..... i dunno why that crap is priced so high anywayz corvette is much better and only 50k
     
  14. i dunno where u get off cursing american cars anywayz...... the chevelle is chevy's (in my view) best muscle car bak then.... im in fact buyin a 1970 chevelle ss with a 454 engine with original parts <IMG SRC="http://www.supercars.net/servlets/cMsg/html/emoticons/smile.gif"> i dunno if u noticed either but chevy takes over the competition in fastest car........... the 1988 sledgehammer corvette for instance i duno if ure nsx can actually take 880 hp but i shure do kno it will be left in the dust
     
  15. #190 Guibo, Aug 9, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from BMW M</i>
    <b>And yes I trust C&D and R&T for PERFORMANCE numbers only since they never assess the reliability, longevity, and build quality anyways. And I do not know what type of assessment that JD Power report uses but like Zanardi 50 said, the NSX recieved the highest rating of reliability in JD Power anyways, so why try and divert my reference and make an ill invested attempt to cheapen my argument by saying that "Consumer's Report Auto Magazine is not credible" when its uses credible assessment and is world renowned unlike JD Power.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    JD Power is not world reknown? Try looking it up on yahoo or google and tell me what you find. JD Power only appeals to the DOMESTIC market, yup:
    http://www.jdpa.com/studies/filter.asp?KeywordValueID=46&CatID=1

    Anyways, I thought the top car for reliability was Lexus in '98. Anyone have that report for the NSX? I could be wrong. But I'd still like to see it.

    C&D and R&T don't do long term reports and owner surveys? I have a survey form from one of the issues asking NSX owners about their ownership experience. I also have their surveys on Honda Accord, Ford Mustangs, BMW M3 & 3 Series, Dodge Viper used car buying guide, etc. Let me know if you think I'm BS'ing. I'd be more than happy to BURY you with this.
    Here, just an example of C&D's Long Term Test report. Does Consumer Report re-test the 0-150 time of their cars after 40,000 miles?
     
  16. i would just like to say that the corvette is not the only thing that will tear the crap out of the copy cat nsx. My 1971 chevelle will eat both a vette an nsx, skyline and yes a ferrari, but if i had to choose one of these cars it would be a ferrari, but then i would sell it and buy a corvette and modify the hell out of it then i might consider selling my chevelle.<!-- Signature -->
     
  17. BMW M, up until a few posts ago I actually thought...that I really cared what you think of me. Bwahahahaha, LOL! I'm not here to hold your hand and sing campfire songs.

    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from BMW M</i>
    <b>When did I say that it's "dangerous to drive a Viper". You should learn how to read.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    When did I say that YOU said it's "dangerous to drive a Viper?" You should learn how to read.

    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from BMW M</i>
    <b>Let me guess you think that C & D is more credible then R & T because it's a counterargument to what you're presenting to the table?</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Here's what I'm presenting to the table. Lap times (C5 vs. 996 C4). Where are your lap times? Sure, they said the Z06 was less managable in the wet. But did they say it'd be slower? Sure enough, the recent issue of R&T showed the Z06 outlapping the 996 (and NSX), even though it has inferior weight distribution for wet weather lapping, and too much uncontrollable torque. LOL.

    Yes, Andretti was impressed with the handling of the NSX Zanardi. But he was still faster in the Viper GTS-R in every single one of the handling tests.
     
  18. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from BMW M</i>
    <b>You know Guibo, up until a few posts ago I actually thought you were knowledgable and fair, but now I'm starting to think that you're an ignorant person that likes to twist around what other people say....</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    You know BMW M, up until a few posts ago I actually thought...that I really cared what you think of me. Bwahahahaha, LOL! I'm not here to hold your hand and sing campfire songs. If you want to get personal, I'm more than happy to oblige.

    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from BMW M</i>
    <b>When did I say that it's "dangerous to drive a Viper". You should learn how to read.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    When did I say that YOU said it's "dangerous to drive a Viper?" You should learn how to read.

    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from BMW M</i>
    <b>Let me guess you think that C & D is more credible then R & T because it's a counterargument to what you're presenting to the table?</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Here's what I'm presenting to the table. Lap times (C5 vs. 996 C4). Where are your lap times? Sure, they said the Z06 was less managable in the wet. But did they say it'd be slower? Sure enough, the recent issue of R&T showed the Z06 outlapping the 996 (and NSX), even though it has inferior weight distribution for wet weather lapping, and too much uncontrollable torque. LOL.

    Yes, Andretti was impressed with the handling of the NSX Zanardi. But he was still faster in the Viper GTS-R in every single one of the handling tests.
     
  19. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from WAY2FAST4YOU</i>
    <b>Big rob, what is there to reply about, you have nothing intelligent to say. And you call me a liar? what are you talking about, i have been nothing but honest; and yes we are ALL CAR FANS, now some of us are different types of car fans, there are those immature car fans, Also known as NUMBERS FANS, who click on the fastest 0-60 link and see some car that is probably the only one in the world and sit there in awe. Now if your a number fan i guess i cant argue with you, yes the corvette has better numbers, but if you are a TRUE CAR FAN you see my point and you agree with me on why the NSX is overall a better car. </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->soprry its taken me a day or three, but.....there was plenty to respond to if you had opinions of your own to respond with, but alas you do not. This forum has taken an interesting turn and it is getting wuite interesting and i pretty much agree 100 percent with what lawman is saying, while at the same time i see bmw's argument even though i may not agree with it. You on the other hand have changed arguments several times on this thread and have lied on top of it. Not that it is a big deal, it just threatens your creditability when you come out and say that you have beaten vetts, then you say you havent but when you mod you will, then you say that you have modded (when you havent) then you say you havent modded. It just gets old. And the fact that you start this forum based on performance and then try to turn around and say that you never argued performance, HA. ok i am done
     
  20. Ok this has to be one of the stupidest forum started.....

    Corvette VS NSX that’s like comparing an Integra VS Mustang Cobra R....

    The NSX has no chance against the Corvette, the Vette has proven to be faster in a straight line, and for those of you who think the NSX would beat it on the track LOOK AGAIN! The Corvette has better weight distribution and was proven in a test done by R&T, to be the better handling car.

    For the guy who started this forum, I seriously doubt you own an NSX, just from the way you talk.

    Now lets put one thing clear hear, I don't hate the NSX, I've grown to respect it. Frankly I think I would even prefer one, why? Because the NSX has the perfect balance of luxury and performance. Thing I hate about most American sports cars is that they are all made for big guys, NSX I've sat in and it is just so perfect.

    However to say the NSX would beat the Z06? Hell no, unless the Z06 driver can't drive. To say American cars can't handle the track is also pure bull.

    I'm also tierd of hearing that the Corvette and all American cars use low tech, simply because American sports cars prefer to use OHC instead of DOHC. I think those who believe this should look closer at the LS1 engine.

    Ferrari4ever123 is probably one of the bigger idiots on this site who keep on coming back to that point, that the Z06 uses low tech because it needs a bigger engine to compete with other cars like the NSX and the 360. I've got just one point to make about that.....

    I think it's pretty damn impressive that GM is able to produce a car like the Z06, which has competed and beaten the likes of a Ferrari 360, yet almost uses half the amount of fuel. What do you think is a bigger accomplishment, making an engine with a better hp/liter ratio or making an engine that can produce more while guzzling less. (this also goes for the NSX)
     
  21. ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Quote from BMWM
    Thank you for further proving my point on the ignorance of American Muscle fans. Boy the ignorant idiots don't stop piling up in this forum do they? See my point Guibo, sparetire, and bigrob? Besides you three, every American muscle fan that has made a post in this forum, has done it in the manner which I condemned in my lengthy post on the previous page. This idiot gets mad when I say he doesn't understand the meaning of the word "r!cer" and he proves his idiocy by giving the wrong definition. Hey moron, a "r!cer" is ANY car (not just japanese) that is modified aesthetically to make a car appear fast rather than doing engine mods on a their car. R!cer mods include custom paint job, wings, and stickers. And you're a complete idiot if you think that the NSX is a r!cer and that 290 bhp is weak. Just to show you that r!ce is not "limited" to japanese cars, here are some American r!cers better known as "POTATO CARS".
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    You are the ignorant one. The term r$ce was coined because of JAPANESE cars, which is why they chose r$ce, b/c japanese people produce and consume alot of rice. How do you know what the real definition is? B/c your rich friends told you? Whatever, in my opinion anything w/ jap crap under the hood is considered a r*ce burner, thus I call it r%ce. American's can't be r%cers by my definition, b/c they have American engines under the hood. There is no real definition of r%ce, stupid mother#$%#er. Look it up in the dictionary, the only definition will be regarding the food. MY definition of r#ce is any car with jap crap under the hood, i'm sorry yours is more 'correct' b/c you own a 50,000$ car. Asshole. <!-- Signature -->
     
  22. BMW M, personnally Ill give up "premium leather" for regular leather, oh and a Heads Up Display you cant get anywhere else, other than other GM products.<!-- Signature -->
     
  23. this has kind of been exhausted, my final point is, you want numbers? buy a civic, put in 20 grand into it... you want a REAL EXOTIC you buy an NSX> PERIOD! end of story<!-- Signature -->
     
  24. GM do put the crappiest materials in all their cars, even the Corvette. I've even got an admission from them that they put low-quality discs in, most Vettes are never braked hard&heavily so those owners never notice but they're the cheapest you can get.
    Compare that to NSX or BMW, I've never so far heard people having problems like that? Reason most people don't notice the thing I have may be that if you only cruise on the highway with the occasional redlight/street-race and 1/4-mile you won't have a problem but it sure as hell ain't a real sportscar, if it was it'd be made with higher grade materials!
     
  25. #200 Guibo, Aug 9, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    BMW M:
    Doesn't Consumer Reports' reliability report come from surveys of its 2.4 million readers? (Of which 500,000 responded.) If so, how does "the insight of top mechanics, automotive assemblers, etc..." figure into this?

    Are you saying that Consumer Reports has NOTHING to do with the Consumer Reports Auto Buying Guide?

    For anyone in general:

    Something from a Corvette Z06 owner.

    "Initial impressions:
    The biggest question/comment bimmerphiles (BMW fans) have about the Corvette is the "Quality" Issue and the GM corporate parts bin. Just for the record... it's all baloney.
    I am really impressed with the tightness and fit of the Vette. fit and finish are excellent. Is it BMW tuetonic level? No, it's not even intended to be. The car has its own personality and is executed very well within that design. Is the BMW better? Nope. It's an apples and oranges comparison. I like both for design, and feel the ZO6 is actually slightly better put together initially than my M coupe was, as-delivered. The M coupe had three screw ups from the first day, leaking rear wiper/washer, rattling glove box, and a rear deck lock mechanism that was not functioning properly. Further, it was missing chrome trim parts, and center console compartment. The ZO6 has no initial problems at all.
    In the balance, anyone who really believes the BMW is far superior has simply not even sat in the Vette. Chevy needs to be commended on an outstanding turnaround in this regard. In the ZO6, they have produced a car with excellent performance, excellent fit and finish, and very good ergonomics. I am very pleased, and don't feel I am missing anything by defecting from the BMW camp!

    "1500 miles and a few fun laps at Willow Springs:
    Fit and finish notes:
    I remain impressed with the overall fit and finish of this car. I have had no rattles, squeaks, creaks, or buzzes to complain about. Everything in this car works perfectly, the clutch, brake and gas pedals are smooth and firm, and placed very well. Steering feels a little heavy, but has an excellent ratio, and the car tracks perfectly straight on the freeway. The brakes are outstanding, and have not so much as squeaked or faded no matter what we've done to them. The exterior finish is very good, but is the cars weakest point. However, it looks just great polished up. It seams to be less prone to chipping than I experienced with the M, which by now had several chips in the nose (the Z has none yet)."

    http://www.lumenique.com/Cars/zo6/ZO6%20pg1.htm
     

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