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Discussion in '2002 BMW M3 CSL Concept' started by LM racer, Aug 9, 2002.
they ignore them and post their own small-minded profanities over the page.
what? you should read up on the motor trend i forgot which issue of this year compared the zo6 on stock tires ofcourse to the m3 to the boxter S. ofcourse the z06 won in all categories INCLUDING its immense 1.08 G's. ON STOCK TIRES please read it, now i didnt know about the gt2 pulling 1.2 and that is a good point
pardon me if I'm wrong HotBoxer, but it seems to me that you get an immense amount of your information from the site edmunds.com ? if that is true i hope you know that the info on that site has been discredited NUMEROUS amounts of times not only by people on this site but also by some respected authorities on automotive issues.
I rarely get info from them, I usually get the info from magazines or people I know in the industry. I know most sources can be wrong, thats why I usually try an varify the info over a few sources to make sure its correct but I rarely give more than one source when I post the info because if I have varified the info from edmunds with other sources I don't see the point in listing off a sh!tload references. I also use edmunds as a reference sometimes because a lot of people just assume that their info is correct and it saves the trouble of me verifying it further for newbies who don't recognize other sources. You do have a valid point though.
For the 1681581681613843543514641th time (at least) skidpad is a crappy thing that measure only the grip , not the handling.
So Huge tires = huge grip.
The suspension system is involved also and well as the weight of the car.
I just have nothing to care about grip .When yopu loose grip , you understeer or oversteer.
Does oversteering prevents you to be fast on a track or on the roads ? NO.
You just kill your tires faster.
If you don't believe me , explain why a car can be very fast by sliding...
oh thats cool hotboxer, thats why your so knowledgeable.
YEAH it does measure grip and guess what, why are AWD cars prefered over RW or FW, because you have more grip thus no need for under steering on turns, cars with better grip are ALWAYS easier to control of turns and lets not forget that it does WONDERS For the acceleration.
The zo6 recieved its enormous G-force skid pad rating on STOCK tires by motortrend. thats why its impressive it wasnt done on huge cheaters tires...
are you an american, because obviously besides price the best are european, i' not sure exactly how much american cars are, but aussie cars are great value for money.
400hp in a great car, the holden gto coupe. more of a straight line performer though. nearly keeps up with the M3, but at less than half the price.
well the lingenfelter vette posted a skipad number of 1.05G as posted by motor trend. in MOST magazines the regarded skipad is 1.00G. in the comparison with the boxster S and the m3 you posted, that is the older 385 horsepower corvette. in the most recent test with the 405 hp corvette it actually posted a 0.99G! the slalom was 70.3 mph.
the main point i was arguing is basically the following: while stastistics give a GOOD impression of what a car is capable of, it is clearly not the whole picture as even experienced drivers (the driver who did the 12.2 sec quarter mile in the GT-2 was a professional drag racer) can make mistakes in their testing.
by saying the corvette is better simply through acceleartion tests (i've seen the other forums you post in waytoofast4u) you seem to judge performance in this car simply because its 0-60 isn't satisfactory for you.
if you'll notice in that same motor trend article the m3 was posted as being a much better daily driver than the z06. after all the m3 won the driver's pick of the best car. the standard m3 doesn't really cost that much more than a z06, and if you really only cared about performance there wouldn't be a need to add any extra options.
so you see your original points
1) european cars should only be luxury oriented
2) european cars are inferior performance wise
3) japanese cars make the best sports cars
4) the z06 is SUBSTANTIALLY "better"
are negated by most of this forum.
Hmm...the whole "best in the world" statement is less than modest, but the fact remains that as far as world-beating quality, engineering, performance and innovation are concerned, the weight of the world is (generally) on the shoulders of two countries, namely Germany and Italy. There are those who claim to make vehicles which can compete, and there are always the people who scream "I could buy 5 Z06's for this price!" but at the end of the day, you get what you pay for.
Hmmm you forgot the UK.
Home of Jaguar, Lotus, Aston Martin, and TVR.
which equiped with a manual transmission for performance, will beat the BMW... and even price.
i'll gradly take an XK180 concept now equiped with a modified 6 speed SMG manual transmission against this car.
Italy is great, but in terms of price, it shouldn't be counted.
Quality has lately been granted to Jaguar, for the past 5 years, proven by JD Powers. Performance, Jaguar prodivde better engines in terms of liter per HP, and it cars has more torque than BMW.
The price of BMW is expensive. Take the M5, it's $9,000 more expensive than the S-Type R. Z8 is $50,000 more than the XKR.
but you get what you pay for. that's granted.
Umm although I do agree that the europeans make the best vehicles all around, I don't agree american car companies are copying everything european car companies do.
Some are like the Lincon LS and 300M definatly, but there are other cars that are nothing at all like American like the Viper or Vette.
viper is in the same boat as the 300M now a days.
but i would say europeans produce more refined products.
That's dumb. How are we copying their design? Give me an example.
lets c how americans are copying european cars tiptronic shit where they get that from.luxury sports sedans all of a sudden i know of a war vet that when he was in germany he saw how benz used to dip there hole shell of the car in the shit to keep them from eroding and once dumb#$%#s like gm ford and chrysler learned they started as well.the designs of american cars are smaller and more sleak where they get that from u stupid #$%#ers.from know on when grown folks talk keep ur mouth shut.as far as honda being better than bmw or any german or european car brand that is #$%#ing bullshit look how long there stupid asses bean in formula 1 and they still are crap. bmw its second year in formula 1 had the most powerful engine no one has done that not evan ferrari and u stupid ferrari lovers which includes me but i aint stupid gt1 racing they would get #$%#ed up every time by (porsche 16 championship years #$%#heads) and audi and merceades so shut the #$%# up only shit ferrari ever did was have good designers and the best #$%#ing drivers u can get for formula 1.oh by the way u shitty chevy morons who think chevy makes race cars that shit is retarded look at them making the (cadillac gt1 a real race car by the way not that #%$get corvette shit) car their first real venture into real racing not redneck oval stupid shit and they are #$%#ing crap, panoz a privateer #$%#s them up.got i hate stupied people and u wonder why they think americans are so #$%#ing dumb.
It depends on what you want out of your car.
In order for Europe to make the best cars in the world, they would have to make cars that are superior in every aspect. They do not.
In terms of reliabiity, Japan wins hands down. An M3 will destroy a Honda Civic in every aspect of performance, but it wont last nearly as long. I went to a Honda dealer about 5 years ago looking for a car, and he was trying to sell me on the reliability of Honda. So as an example, he told me that he has a customer who has an 89' Civic with over 400,000 miles on it, and it still runs great. That's basically like driving to the moon and back. You will never come close to getting that longevity out of ANY European car, especially a BMW. So if you are looking for the car that will be dependable for the greatest possible amount of time, then Japan makes that car for you, not Europe.
In terms of performance for the price, Japan wins again. You can spend 30 grand on a 3-Series that gives you 180hp, or you can spend 30 grand on a G35 that gives you 280 hp, and out performs it on the track. If performance is what you are after, and you don't have a whole lot to spend, buying an entry-level BMW or an Audi would be a poor choice. Nissan 350Z, Infiniti G35, Acura CL, Mitsubishi Lancer Evo, Mazda RX-8, Honda S2000, all will give you better or equal performance for less. In order to experience what BMW really has to offer, you have to spend atleast 60 grand. You can spend half of that on the cars I listed above, and get just about the very best of what they have to offer.
If luxury is your desire, then it's relative to your personal tastes and needs. Who wins in this catagory is up to the individual and his personal tastes, and bankroll. The only thing that can be stated as a fact here is that Europe is not the only place where luxurious autombilies come from. I think the Q45 is the most technologically advanced luxury sedan on the market. Not only does it give you more technology, but it gives you a world renouned award winning engine with class leading horse power. But it's not for everyone, so it cannot be considered the best luxury car in the world. Just one of the best. The point is that Europe doesn't have a monopoly on Luxury cars, so it does not win here either.
If money is no object to you, and you want a car so fast and sexy that women want to hump your leg as soon as you step out of it, than buy a Ferrari, or Lamborghini, or Porsche. However, Most people cannot afford these cars. If I spend 200 grand on a car, it better get me to 60 mph in 3 seconds..in fact, the damn thing should also go out and get a job. Where Europe wins hands down is that they offer the best street legal performance cars in the world. There is no debating this. If you want a legal race car, it's a European car.
So in conclusion...If you are the common man who can't spend out the ass for a car, and you are looking for performance or luxury with reliability, you can find a car that will give this to you, and most likely it comes from Japan. If you are the well-off man who can afford any car in existence, and you want a car with refined second-to-none performance, a presitgious name, and one that will get you a lot of sex, you can find that car also, and it most likely comes from Europe.
hey men "you get what you pay for"
#2 case closed
P.S i saw this reply on the first page of this topic <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>
I'm sick of everyone down here tuning Mitsubishis and Toyotas, when you can actually have something that stands out.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------Quote from 2003SVTCOBRA:
"and in the first post he said that American car companies are trying to copy europeans? i dont think so, give me an example and maybe i could agree with you."
It seems to me that if you take a good look at a Lincoln, you see a lot of BMW in it, especially in the front.
HAHA, yeh, "duh..." FERRARI, enough said.
That's right European cars are the best in the world!