Re: European Sports cars are better!

Discussion in '2000 Lingenfelter 650 Corvette' started by D Viper, Aug 10, 2002.

  1. What on earth could Mr. Sutcliffe have been talking about? Ahh...forget it.

    (I'd rather not go any further with the TVR reliability issue, as they are my favorite British marque. But if you wish to pursue it further, just say the word. The ball is in your court.)
     
  2. what is Mr.Sutcliffe talking about?...maybe he's suggesting that Mr. Wheeler likes to bring out new cars every year to promote his company's image at the motorshow, as he thinks this is very important. He suggests further that Mr.Wheeler would rather do that than refine the current models, that does NOT say anything about their reliability - i could tell u about my dads Audi that has had countless reoccuring problems, with the lambda sensors at the mo. One of my friends has had a lot of trouble with his Merc, likewise many BMW owners. All companies make cars that break down, TVR is no worse than anyone else, the fact that one brokedown in a magazine-test is unfortuante, nothing more.

    wait a couple of years until i start my job at TVR and then see what happens

    (ps, u dont have to post scans of Autocar, just tell me the issue number, ive been a subscriber for the last 6 years)
     
  3. Mr. Sutcliffe is commiserating. He knows what the reader is talking about.
    Haha, this is only one TVR that has broken down? Don't you recall the Autocar (or was that evo?) where they drove the Tuscan S through Paris. Everything fine and dandy. Until the throttle cable snaps (recurring theme for Tuscan owners). Or what about the glitch with the Cerbera that evo experienced while doing a comparo with the Mercedes C-Class coupe fitted with an AMG V8? Or what of the TVR 280 (I believe it was) that was trailered back to the factory in Performance Car, due to a faulty fuel pump? What of the Cerbera that was to show for Top Gear's '97 test at the Nurburgring against the Skyline, Porsche, Corvette automatic, Ferrari F355, NSX, and Schnitzer BMW? Those cars all showed. Cerbera was "mysteriously down on power", so had to sit out. Remember?
    And of the 10+ cars in that Autocar Best Driver's Car article, it turned out to be...the TVR? Whoa. The odds. Yes, truly random.

    Where do you get your information about TVR reliability?

    While you're thinking about it, here's another comment to ponder (let me know if you wish to see more; it sounds like you do):

    "I purchased a brand new Tuscan in June last year within a fortnight the cams were knocking excessively.This was put down to finger followers.The engine was sent back to TVR who had it for a fortnight.The engine was returned ,refitted and lasted about three weeks!It was returned again with the same problem to the factory.By the time I sold the car 3 months latter it had approx 1400 mile on the clock had received its pre delivery inspection, first service and twice back to the factory.The problem I believe was down to the material which the finger followers were made out of not the dealers who I bought it off! By the way I now drive a Chimaera which I find far less hassle!"


     
  4. i dont get my info about TVR reliability from anywhere...i hear all the same stories that you hear, i know they are notorious for reliability. All im saying is that all TVR drivers are enthusiasts who are more likely to tell everyone when something goes wrong. People who drive Fords or Peugeots etc probably have the same problems, but just take the car back to the garage and dont complain, they accept that things go wrong.

    Yes it does seem that a lot of magazine tests of TVRs end negatively (im also a loyal reader of EVO) but i also read a lot about the improvements made in the quality of the cars - this surely also includes the mechanical reliability

    theyre definitely not the best, but theyre also not the worst
     
  5. what does that prove anyone can make a racecar with enough of a budget.

    who won the ALMS and Lemans, who won F1 no americans whats your point?
    and before u say I know its Audi Sport North America but think it would be a bit thick competing in america and being based in europe.
     
  6. Haha, you want to talk about budgets? What's Saleen's budget? What's Audi's budget? (Reportedly $300M in their first year.) What's Panoz's budget?
    I'm sorry, are these racing series somehow irrelevant simply because a supposedly obsolete, American pushrod engine took the title? How convenient. Again, who won the 24 Hours of Nurburgring and the 24 Hours of Spa? Belcar championship?

    ch1c4n3:
    If you're hearing the same stories I am, then surely you're aware of the 2 other (known) Tamoras that have expired or otherwise required engine rebuilds? What of the leaking tops? Surely, if these problems are truly sorted, these stories would cease to pop up, right? For 2 other Tamora engines (in addition to the one in Autocar) to expire in such a short time after launch does not bode well.
    Yes, you speak of BMW's or Audis having problems. But how many go back in for multiple rebuilds? BMW had cases of sulphur content issues with their V8 engines in the early to mid-90's. Yet, do such problems still exist? No. BMW had some early production M3's (traced to October/November '01 build dates) with bearing failures, but they've addressed them. I had a '72 2002 with 218K miles on it before I sold it. And yes, I ragged on that one. Liked it so much I bought another.
    TVR no worse than other marques on average? What did the JD Power surveys in the UK conclude?
     
  7. Regarding Le Mans
    "and no, sorry, america only has 4 wins out of 70"

    And America has *tried* to win in all 70? Riiiight. The fact that they've only really tried in GT2/GTS class in the past half decade (and won, over competition from Ferrari/Prodrive and Porsche) is not exactly a bad accomplishment. Of course, you guys won't ever admit it...
     
  8. 4 out of 70 is 4 out of 70...it doesnt matter how many times theyve tried, its the results that count

    Panoz, Chrysler and Cadillac have all attempted the big 24 in the last decade, with no sucess in the class that counts - overall

    the Viper won 3 times in a row and the C5-R twice, yes, but against who?...privateer Porsches (no factory teams in GT2/GTS) and privateer Ferrari's (again, no factory entries). It is an incredible achievement, highlighting the reliability of american musclecars...but beside an overall victory, class victory is nothing

    the nurburgring/spa 24hr events arent professional races. Theres no entry rules and its full of amateurs. Once again winning proves only reliability, not technical expertise or anything else.

    America's "resume" still reads 1 win out of 700+ in F1 (i forgot the Eagle last time), no wins ever in rallying and 4 wins out of 70 at Le Mans. Cosworth, Honda, Infiniti and Toyota dominate american single-seater racing. America dont even compete in motorbike racing, EVER.
     
  9. Yeah, I guess BMW is shit. Ditto for Toyota and Nissan. How many wins out of 70? (Do BMW, Toyota, and Nissan use pushrods?)
    And why the hell should America care about predominantly EUROPEAN races? (Like all of my questions, this is not rhetorical.) Really. That's as absurd as expecting Ferrari to do well at NASCAR, NHRA, or Indy. (Come to think of it, Ferrari did try at least once at Indy. And failed.) Is Ferrari even in World Rally? How are they doing? What's that you say? ZERO victories? Haha, they must SUCK!

    24 Hours of Nurburgring is an amateur race? So what? Even more to the point that on a grassroots level, American pushrod-powered dinosaurs can still do well. Speaking of which, why would European teams even want the Viper after Chrylser bailed out on that program? Hmmm?
    It's pretty odd. 24 Hours of Nurburgring is an amateur race, yet all of the contestants have sponsor stickers all over the cars. Zakspeed Viper, Falken Skyline, etc.
    Wouldn't you think the Open Track Challenge better represents amateur racing? Stock cars, with fairly minor mods, some on street tires. Yet, you dismiss the result simply because you ASSUME the F40 driver can't drive. Oh dear, how convenient!
     
  10. Haha, Jordan and Minardi compete in the highest form of motor racing. I bet their street cars are stellar!
     
  11. Quote from ch1c4n3:
    "Once again winning proves only reliability, not technical expertise or anything else."

    Goodness. You’re full of all KINDS of wonderful morsels, aren’t you?
    What’s the old saying…In order to finish first, you must first finish.
    In a 24-hour race, is it TECHNICAL EXPERTISE that’s the goal, or winning? I’m pretty sure it’s the latter. Last I heard, it isn’t exactly too easy to make an 8.0-liter V10 compact and lightweight, and to put it into a package that is well balanced and can handle the power and torque. No technical expertise, huh?
    The fact that the Viper also set the quickest lap times points to…technical mediocrity?
     
  12. BMW arent shit because they won Le Mans, they won the F1 World title in 1983, theyve won several races with Williams these past years, they even won the Corsica rally in 1987

    Nissan arent shit (well, their competitions department...) because they got pole at Le Mans on 2 separate occasions, they came 3rd in 1998, they nearly won it in the 80s, they were runners-up in the sportscar world championship, they won the IMSA GTP class over in the states

    Toyota arent shit coz they got pole at Le Mans, they came 2nd in 1999, they were front runners in the 80s and early 90s, they are one of the most sucessful rally teams of all time, they arent doing too badly in F1 given its their first season, they are winning in CART and will no doubt take wins next year in IRL, they even won Pikes Peak

    european races are they?...is that y theyre called world championships? heard of the Indianapolis grand prix?...heard of the argentinian rally?...heard of the AMERICAN le mans series?...Audi pretty much wiped the floor with panoz in that

    NASCAR is a joke, for dumbass rednecks who dont know better. NHRA is fairly mindless aswell, great entertainment but fairly pointless and not very interesting from an engineering p.o.v.

    no ferrari dont suck...theyre one of the most sucessful F1 teams of all time, one of the most sucessful Le Mans winners of all time - just because 1 category lies uncontested doesnt make them shit

    pretty stupid comment about Jordan and Minardi, i have to say

    the Viper set the fastest lap time?...what would that be, the 800hp Zakspeed one?...the one that was only marginally faster than the Caterham that Autocar entered?...yes thats what i call technical expertise, an 8000cc car that can only just best an 1800cc car
     
  13. "BMW arent shit because they won Le Mans, they won the F1 World title in 1983, theyve won several races with Williams these past years, they even won the Corsica rally in 1987"

    Corsica Rally = WRC title?
    F1 title? Sorry, that's Brabham-BMW. "Several races"...how many Le Mans out of 70?


    "Nissan arent shit (well, their competitions department...) because they got pole at Le Mans on 2 separate occasions"

    And pole counts for what, exactly, in a 24-hour race?


    "...they came 3rd in 1998, they nearly won it in the 80s, they were runners-up in the sportscar world championship, they won the IMSA GTP class over in the states"

    In other words, 0 wins out of 70? How many F1 races did they win?


    "Toyota arent shit coz they got pole at Le Mans, they came 2nd in 1999, they were front runners in the 80s and early 90s"

    In other words, 0 wins out of 70?


    "they even won Pikes Peak"

    Without any input from Rod Millen himself, I gather?


    "heard of the Indianapolis grand prix?"

    And one stop in America makes it somehow American, or otherwise non-European?


    "heard of the argentinian rally?"

    Silly me. I forgot about all of those Argentines who drive WRX's, Peugeot's, and Ford Focuses up on their cattle trails. The Argentinian Rally reflects PERFECTLY the driving habits and preferences of the average Argentine. Just like Paris-Dakar reflects the preference of North African tribesmen for superexotic machinery.


    "...heard of the AMERICAN le mans series?...Audi pretty much wiped the floor with panoz in that"

    With the budget they received, is any other outcome expected? What's Audi's R&D budget compared to Panoz? At least Saleen's budget is reasonably on a par with TVR, no?


    "NASCAR is a joke, for dumbass rednecks who dont know better. NHRA is fairly mindless aswell, great entertainment but fairly pointless and not very interesting from an engineering p.o.v."

    And this is scientifically proven? Or just your opinion? (Careful, now. Don't confuse the two.)


    "no ferrari dont suck...theyre one of the most sucessful F1 teams of all time, one of the most sucessful Le Mans winners of all time - just because 1 category lies uncontested doesnt make them shit"

    1 category? What would that be? DTM? WRC? Eurodrags? ASCAR (hey, whadya know? Rednecks in England?)? Belcar? FFSAGT?


    "pretty stupid comment about Jordan and Minardi, i have to say"

    Looks like that's ALL you have to say.
    In other words, just because you compete in F1, doesn't mean you can make a decent road car. Or Minivan. Or truck/SUV.


    "the Viper set the fastest lap time?...what would that be, the 800hp Zakspeed one?"

    No, the 450 PS DIN one (below). Hell, even in '01 it had far less than 800 hp. And it still won. You must be thinking of '00 (where it lost by 1 lap). Or maybe '99 (where it won by 3)?


    "the one that was only marginally faster than the Caterham that Autocar entered?..."

    Marginally faster? LOL. The Viper qualified on pole with a 9:12.842. The fastest Caterham was 35th (!) with a time over a minute slower, 10:19.120.
    In the end (when it counts), the Caterham was 11 laps down. What is that, roughly 173 miles behind? Marginally faster, LMFAO!
    Here's a hint: don't get all your info from Autocar. In a 24 Hour race, when a car has built up a fairly insurmountable lead, the driver can relax, take a breather, save the tires, stretch out the economy. How does Autocar know this wasn't the case, when they decided to gauge their performance against the Viper? Oh, that's right. They DON'T.
    You know, one time I beat a Ferrari out on the highway. I saw him barreling down in the fast lane, and right as he went by, I jumped on the gas of my old BMW. Was he racing? Oh, I don't know. And instead of going about 30 mph faster than I was going like he did at first, he was only going about 5 mph faster. Sure, he beat me to the next exit. But still. He only beat me...marginally. LOL!


    "yes thats what i call technical expertise, an 8000cc car that can only just best an 1800cc car"

    What difference does it make? I don't see you slagging Porsche or Ferrari. The 360 Modena and 996 Turbo aren't much quicker around Nurburgring. In fact, the 360 Modena is 14 seconds SLOWER than the fastest time set by the R500. Are you going to slag the 360's "tecnical expertise"? C'mon, let me hear you say it.
     
  14. "BMW arent shit because they won Le Mans, they won the F1 World title in 1983, theyve won several races with Williams these past years, they even won the Corsica rally in 1987"

    Corsica Rally = WRC title?
    F1 title? Sorry, that's Brabham-BMW. "Several races"...how many Le Mans out of 70?


    "Nissan arent shit (well, their competitions department...) because they got pole at Le Mans on 2 separate occasions"

    And pole counts for what, exactly, in a 24-hour race?


    "...they came 3rd in 1998, they nearly won it in the 80s, they were runners-up in the sportscar world championship, they won the IMSA GTP class over in the states"

    In other words, 0 wins out of 70? How many F1 races did they win?


    "Toyota arent shit coz they got pole at Le Mans, they came 2nd in 1999, they were front runners in the 80s and early 90s"

    In other words, 0 wins out of 70?


    "they even won Pikes Peak"

    Without any input from Rod Millen himself, I gather?


    "heard of the Indianapolis grand prix?"

    And one stop in America makes it somehow American, or otherwise non-European?


    "heard of the argentinian rally?"

    Silly me. I forgot about all of those Argentines who drive WRX's, Peugeot's, and Ford Focuses up on their cattle trails. The Argentinian Rally reflects PERFECTLY the driving habits and preferences of the average Argentine. Just like Paris-Dakar reflects the preference of North African tribesmen for superexotic machinery.


    "...heard of the AMERICAN le mans series?...Audi pretty much wiped the floor with panoz in that"

    With the budget they received, is any other outcome expected? What's Audi's R&D budget compared to Panoz? At least Saleen's budget is reasonably on a par with TVR, no?


    "NASCAR is a joke, for dumbass rednecks who dont know better. NHRA is fairly mindless aswell, great entertainment but fairly pointless and not very interesting from an engineering p.o.v."

    And this is scientifically proven? Or just your opinion? (Careful, now. Don't confuse the two.)


    "no ferrari dont suck...theyre one of the most sucessful F1 teams of all time, one of the most sucessful Le Mans winners of all time - just because 1 category lies uncontested doesnt make them shit"

    1 category? What would that be? DTM? WRC? Eurodrags? ASCAR (hey, whadya know? Rednecks in England?)? Belcar? FFSAGT?


    "pretty stupid comment about Jordan and Minardi, i have to say"

    Looks like that's ALL you have to say.
    In other words, just because you compete in F1, doesn't mean you can make a decent road car. Or Minivan. Or truck/SUV.


    "the Viper set the fastest lap time?...what would that be, the 800hp Zakspeed one?"

    No, the 450 PS DIN one (below). Hell, even in '01 it had far less than 800 hp. And it still won. You must be thinking of '00 (where it lost by 1 lap). Or maybe '99 (where it won by 3)?


    "the one that was only marginally faster than the Caterham that Autocar entered?..."

    Marginally faster? LOL. The Viper qualified on pole with a 9:12.842. The fastest Caterham was 35th (!) with a time over a minute slower, 10:19.120.
    In the end (when it counts), the Caterham was 11 laps down. What is that, roughly 173 miles behind? Marginally faster, LMFAO!
    Here's a hint: don't get all your info from Autocar. In a 24 Hour race, when a car has built up a fairly insurmountable lead, the driver can relax, take a breather, save the tires, stretch out the economy. How does Autocar know this wasn't the case, when they decided to gauge their performance against the Viper? Oh, that's right. They DON'T.
    You know, one time I beat a Ferrari out on the highway. I saw him barreling down in the fast lane, and right as he went by, I jumped on the gas of my old BMW. Was he racing? Oh, I don't know. And instead of going about 30 mph faster than I was going like he did at first, he was only going about 5 mph faster. Sure, he beat me to the next exit. But still. He only beat me...marginally. LOL!


    "yes thats what i call technical expertise, an 8000cc car that can only just best an 1800cc car"

    What difference does it make? I don't see you slagging Porsche or Ferrari. The 360 Modena and 996 Turbo aren't much quicker around Nurburgring. In fact, the 360 Modena is 14 seconds SLOWER than the fastest time set by the R500. Are you going to slag the 360's "tecnical expertise"? C'mon, let me hear you say it.
     
  15. "BMW arent shit because they won Le Mans, they won the F1 World title in 1983, theyve won several races with Williams these past years, they even won the Corsica rally in 1987"

    Corsica Rally = WRC title?
    F1 title? Sorry, that's Brabham-BMW. "Several races"...how many Le Mans out of 70?


    "Nissan arent shit (well, their competitions department...) because they got pole at Le Mans on 2 separate occasions"

    And pole counts for what, exactly, in a 24-hour race?


    "...they came 3rd in 1998, they nearly won it in the 80s, they were runners-up in the sportscar world championship, they won the IMSA GTP class over in the states"

    In other words, 0 wins out of 70? How many F1 races did they win?


    "Toyota arent shit coz they got pole at Le Mans, they came 2nd in 1999, they were front runners in the 80s and early 90s"

    In other words, 0 wins out of 70?


    "they even won Pikes Peak"

    Without any input from Rod Millen himself, I gather?


    "heard of the Indianapolis grand prix?"

    And one stop in America makes it somehow American, or otherwise non-European?


    "heard of the argentinian rally?"

    Silly me. I forgot about all of those Argentines who drive WRX's, Peugeot's, and Ford Focuses up on their cattle trails. The Argentinian Rally reflects PERFECTLY the driving habits and preferences of the average Argentine. Just like Paris-Dakar reflects the preference of North African tribesmen for superexotic machinery.


    "...heard of the AMERICAN le mans series?...Audi pretty much wiped the floor with panoz in that"

    With the budget they received, is any other outcome expected? What's Audi's R&D budget compared to Panoz? At least Saleen's budget is reasonably on a par with TVR, no?


    "NASCAR is a joke, for dumbass rednecks who dont know better. NHRA is fairly mindless aswell, great entertainment but fairly pointless and not very interesting from an engineering p.o.v."

    And this is scientifically proven? Or just your opinion? (Careful, now. Don't confuse the two.)


    "no ferrari dont suck...theyre one of the most sucessful F1 teams of all time, one of the most sucessful Le Mans winners of all time - just because 1 category lies uncontested doesnt make them shit"

    1 category? What would that be? DTM? WRC? Eurodrags? ASCAR (hey, whadya know? Rednecks in England?)? Belcar? FFSAGT?


    "pretty stupid comment about Jordan and Minardi, i have to say"

    Looks like that's ALL you have to say.
    In other words, just because you compete in F1, doesn't mean you can make a decent road car. Or Minivan. Or truck/SUV.


    "the Viper set the fastest lap time?...what would that be, the 800hp Zakspeed one?"

    No, the 450 PS DIN one (below). Hell, even in '01 it had far less than 800 hp. And it still won. You must be thinking of '00 (where it lost by 1 lap). Or maybe '99 (where it won by 3)?


    "the one that was only marginally faster than the Caterham that Autocar entered?..."

    Marginally faster? LOL. The Viper qualified on pole with a 9:12.842. The fastest Caterham was 35th (!) with a time over a minute slower, 10:19.120.
    In the end (when it counts), the Caterham was 11 laps down. What is that, roughly 173 miles behind? Marginally faster, LMFAO!
    Here's a hint: don't get all your info from Autocar. In a 24 Hour race, when a car has built up a fairly insurmountable lead, the driver can relax, take a breather, save the tires, stretch out the economy. How does Autocar know this wasn't the case, when they decided to gauge their performance against the Viper? Oh, that's right. They DON'T.
    You know, one time I beat a Ferrari out on the highway. I saw him barreling down in the fast lane, and right as he went by, I jumped on the gas of my old BMW. Was he racing? Oh, I don't know. And instead of going about 30 mph faster than I was going like he did at first, he was only going about 5 mph faster. Sure, he beat me to the next exit. But still. He only beat me...marginally. LOL!


    "yes thats what i call technical expertise, an 8000cc car that can only just best an 1800cc car"

    What difference does it make? I don't see you slagging Porsche or Ferrari. The 360 Modena and 996 Turbo aren't much quicker around Nurburgring. In fact, the 360 Modena is 14 seconds SLOWER than the fastest time set by the R500. Are you going to slag the 360's "tecnical expertise"? C'mon, let me hear you say it.
     
  16. north america, as a continent, have won 4 Le Mans out of 70. Europe has won 65 and japan has won 1. I'd call that a "slight" victory to europe, 65-4, wouldnt u agree?

    north america has won 1 F1 race out of 700+, europe has won about 650 and japan about 50. 650-1, another marginal victory?

    WRC, north america has won 0 out of 300+ rallies, europe about 200 and japan about 100. 200-0, close fight

    Sportscar world championships, no wins for america
    DTM (since u brought it up, nice move) no wins

    anyone outside america (and most intelligent americans for that matter) think NASCAR is a joke. ASCAR is fairly pathetically supported in europe, likewise euro-drag

    im sure Rod Millen, one guy, was the major player in the design of the Tacoma Truck, yeah right

    have u also heard of the canadian GP, the chinese GP, the south african GP (1966-85) the malaysian GP, the australian GP, the japanese GP

    howabout the Olympia rally, a US round of the WRC in the 80s? the new zealand rally? the australian rally? the kenyan rally? the ivory coast rally, the chinese rally?

    Jordan and Minardi havent even tried making road cars, whats the point in even mentioning them, they do well at the most advanced sport in the world, anything else would be a step down

    Audi has a big budget in the ALMS? u can hardly hold that against them when YOU live in the richest country in the world. Im sure Caddy can dig deep into GMs pockets when they need some cash

    im not going to slag the 360M/996t coz theyre 3600cc, which is slightly different to 8000cc.

    I would hope a Viper RACECAR could beat a caterham roadcar with minor modifications. And if u expect me to believe a 450hp (thats STOCK power!!!) Viper can do 0-62mph in 3 flat than u r fairly stupid

    the Viper that won probably had 650hp at least, someone should really introduce u to the subject of physics and especially the sub-heading of "things that arent possible" the contents of which will include 450hp Vipers doing 9m12 laps round the combined Nord/Sudschleife and topping out at 210mph+

    while you're being re-educated, u might also want to look up the word "sophistry" and see if it rings any bells
     
  17. "And one stop in America makes it somehow American, or otherwise non-European?" well technically speaking there are 3 in america (i think)
    there is indianapolis, the Brazilian GP and the Argentinian gp, hey u didnt say north america.

    and in my opinion i think NASCAR should have stuck to its roots in dirt track racing, much more interesting, i know dirt track racing still goes on butif the same money was put into that as in NASCAR it would be more interesting
     
  18. Quote from ch1c4n3:
    "north america, as a continent, have won 4 Le Mans out of 70. Europe has won 65 and japan has won 1. I'd call that a 'slight' victory to europe, 65-4, wouldnt u agree?"

    LOL. “North America as a continent”. Yup, sounds like we can really count on Canada and MEXICO to campaign over in Europe.


    "north america has won 1 F1 race out of 700+, europe has won about 650 and japan about 50. 650-1, another marginal victory?"

    Has North America (tehehe) ever really CARED about F1 victory’s? Duh, hello?


    ”WRC, north america has won 0 out of 300+ rallies, europe about 200 and japan about 100. 200-0, close fight”

    Again. North America has about ZERO interest in what is primarily a EUROPEAN series.


    ”DTM (since u brought it up, nice move) no wins”

    Haha, how many continents outside of Europe are even interested in DTM? Japan, no wins. Care to slag them too?


    ”anyone outside america (and most intelligent americans for that matter) think NASCAR is a joke. ASCAR is fairly pathetically supported in europe, likewise euro-drag”

    How do you know that most intelligent Americans think NASCAR is a joke? Have you polled most intelligent Americans? Oh, dear. Your generalizations just get grander and grander! LOL.


    ”im sure Rod Millen, one guy, was the major player in the design of the Tacoma Truck, yeah right”

    Did I say he was? Yeah, right.


    ”have u also heard of the canadian GP, the chinese GP, the south african GP (1966-85) the malaysian GP, the australian GP, the japanese GP
    howabout the Olympia rally, a US round of the WRC in the 80s? the new zealand rally? the australian rally? the kenyan rally? the ivory coast rally, the chinese rally?”

    Yes, I have. Your point? Just because you campaign your ritzy racing series outside of your continent doesn’t make your ritzy racing series any less European. Yup, those Chinese are ecstastic over their rally replica WRX's.


    ”Jordan and Minardi havent even tried making road cars, whats the point in even mentioning them, they do well at the most advanced sport in the world, anything else would be a step down”

    Resources, and INTEREST. You’ll figure it out sooner or later.
    Curious how the “most advanced sport in the world” invariably becomes a snoozefest after Lap 4, no?.


    “Audi has a big budget in the ALMS? u can hardly hold that against them when YOU live in the richest country in the world.”

    Right. And how does that refute Audi’s budget over Panoz, again? Oh yeah, it DOESN’T.


    “Im sure Caddy can dig deep into GMs pockets when they need some cash”

    Apparently not deep enough. Cien is a prime example. Hmmm…spend $$$ on quality improvement programs for bread and butter projects like Cavalier and Silverado trucks OR go dump money into an obscure (to most Americans) European racing program. Hmmm…I bet I’d know the answer if you were in charge of GM. Thank god for GM’s sake that you aren’t.


    ”im not going to slag the 360M/996t coz theyre 3600cc, which is slightly different to 8000cc.”

    No, you’re not going to slag them because they’re European, and (more importantly) you’re a hypocrite. 3600cc is still 2X’s more than 1800cc. That’s kinda sad, in a way, considering both of those cars were developed on Euro-style tracks (the Turbo being tuned and developed right on the very Nurburgring), while the Viper enjoys no such development. Twice the displacement, a background in Formula One (the pinnacle of motor racing, remember?), and they can’t even beat a tiny car from England?


    ”I would hope a Viper RACECAR could beat a caterham roadcar with minor modifications. And if u expect me to believe a 450hp (thats STOCK power!!!) Viper can do 0-62mph in 3 flat than u r fairly stupid”

    Hey, this sounds vaguely like the F40 on slicks vs. the Viper on M+S tires. You remember how THAT one ended up, right?
    What’s the weight comparison between the stock Viper and the Zakspeed Viper? What’s the tranny like? What’s the gearing? Isn’t the Zakspeed Viper on pure racing slicks (haha, using a variation of your own argument against you!). Considering a stock, street Viper can do 0-60 in 3.9 seconds and is geared to hit 190 mph, does it seem so unlikely that one that has benefited from considerable weight reduction, improved traction, gearing for a 168 mph top speed, and improved shifting could knock less than a second off its 0-60 time? “Fairly stupid”, LOL.


    “the Viper that won probably had 650hp at least”

    So, it’s gone from 800 hp to “probably 650 hp,” has it? “Probably”? Sounds pretty freakin’ specific.


    “someone should really introduce u to the subject of physics and especially the sub-heading of ‘things that arent possible’ the contents of which will include 450hp Vipers doing 9m12 laps round the combined Nord/Sudschleife and topping out at 210mph+”

    210 mph+? Where’d you get that figure from?
    In any case, the laws of physics tells you that a Viper w/o ABS and a poorer power to weight ratio than a 993 Ruf CTR turbo should have its ass handed to it at Porsche’s home track, the Nurburgring. Yet, the reality is quite a bit different than that.
    What did the laws of physics teach you about a slick-shod F40 vs. a Viper on all-season tires?


    “while you're being re-educated, u might also want to look up the word "sophistry" and see if it rings any bells”

    Nope, doesn’t ring any bells. “Re-educated”, LOL. He who thinks TVRs are no less reliable than any other cars and hadn’t even a clue about the Cien/Cosworth relationship.
     
  19. Tell me, Impreza. When someone talks about America, does Brazil or Argentina even ENTER your mind? Didn't think so.
     
  20. "I really didn't know what to expect, racing with other cars is totally out of my field. I decided to follow the car in front - I expected to be in a train of cars but there were cars all around me. I really enjoyed it. I knew I was enjoying myself when my right knee started shaking! I couldn't stop it. I would definitely like to race in ASCAR again."
    --Colin McRae, former WRC World Champion and redneck who doesn't know better.

    Looks like Le Mans racer Kevin McGarrity, BAR F1 test driver Darren Manning, and BTCC champion Jason Plato are also dumbass rednecks who don't know better. Not sure if Gerhard Berger actually drove one yet, so maybe he's just a wannabe dumbass redneck who doesn't know better.

    Dumbass redneck, below. Curiously, he owns a certain supercar built in Woking...
     
  21. Guibo, if u actually read your own post after mine, u would see what you said...NOTHING

    u say something, i retort, then u distance yourself from what u said in the first place, because u have nothing 2 say back to me

    i, on the otherhand, look at the various points u make (some of them good, i have to say)...then argue each point with counter examples or correct any mistakes u make.

    Why do u keep bringing up the Cien/Cosworth thing?...SHOULD i know about it?...remembering that its an american car, which means it gets very little coverage in British magazines. Autocar did an interview with the designer and i dont think the engine was even mentioned.

    Here's your first physics lesson - if a 620hp race-ready C5-R can do 0-60 in 3.5 (road&track) then a 450hp HEAVIER Viper can not do it in 3.0. And are u crazy?...gearing it to do 168mph?...have u seen the length of the main-straight on the Nurburgring?...an M3 roadcar would overtake u with its speed limiter removed, how embarassed would u b when the Falken Skyline makes up 15sec of lost ground coz ur dumbass car is under-geared?

    no doubt next time u'll say "but i never said it was geared to do 168"

    and by the way, when i said "at least 650hp" it is NOT a specific value, how the hell does "at least" translate into "exactly"

    im sorry, sophistry is clearly a level above u, an unfair compliment - i take it back
     
  22. i am also confused as to why u referred to the AMERICAN le mans series as a european race program (in reference to Cadillacs budget)
     
  23. "i, on the otherhand, look at the various points u make (some of them good, i have to say)...then argue each point with counter examples or correct any mistakes u make."

    Ah, you see, that's the problem. You haven't answered my questions, nor have you argued each of my points.
    Cases in point:
    What's Bentley doing with a pushrod engine?
    Which came first, pushrods or OHC?
    And criminey, I ask you how many wins out of 70 the Japanese have had at Le Mans, and you go on rattling off poles and almost-wons, etc. How about a simple answer?


    "Why do u keep bringing up the Cien/Cosworth thing?...SHOULD i know about it?...remembering that its an american car, which means it gets very little coverage in British magazines. Autocar did an interview with the designer and i dont think the engine was even mentioned."

    Mid-mounted V-12
    100 hp/l
    Direct-injection
    Penned by a British designer
    6-speed semi-automatic transmission w/paddle shifter

    Sounds like your typical American Cadillac then, does it? What part of this DOESN'T tip you off to the possiblitly of a European-influenced engine? The part where GM went to Lotus for help in its DOHC ZR-1? Speaking of which, what the hell happened to THAT engine?
    LOL, "from what I've read." Hint: maybe you should do a little more reading.


    "Here's your first physics lesson - if a 620hp race-ready C5-R can do 0-60 in 3.5 (road&track) then a 450hp HEAVIER Viper can not do it in 3.0. And are u crazy?...gearing it to do 168mph?...have u seen the length of the main-straight on the Nurburgring?...an M3 roadcar would overtake u with its speed limiter removed, how embarassed would u b when the Falken Skyline makes up 15sec of lost ground coz ur dumbass car is under-geared?
    no doubt next time u'll say 'but i never said it was geared to do 168'"

    And what good is a stock M3 going to do you at the 24 Hours of Nurburgring? Hint: Do you think the M3 below is stock? Good luck trying to catch up to the Zakspeed Viper in your stock M3 when you've been clearly blown away in the corners (remember those slicks, that 2970-lb weight, plus the downforce of the Zakspeed Viper?) Hell, the E46 M3 that was tested at the 'Ring by Sport Auto could do no better than 245 kmh at the Doettinger Hohe. And that's on a CLEAR track. What makes you think it's going to exceed (let alone match) even its stock limiter when confronted with a pack of 200+ contestants, some of which can't even break 200 kmh on a perfectly level 5-mile straight? Given these conditions, it's little wonder Zakspeed geared their car to power out of turns and squirt around slower traffic, rather than going for all out top speed. It would be utterly useless.

    Considering a stock 3460-lb Viper can hit 60 in 3.9 and top out anywhere between 185 mph and 193 mph, why is it inconceivable that a 2910-lb Viper with 1 whole pound less per hp, considerably crisper shifting, pure racing slicks, and gearing for 168 mph might reach the same mark 1 second sooner?

    And what part of Höchstgeschwindigkeit did you NOT understand? The data for the Zakspeed Viper clearly states 270 kmh. 270 kmh = 210 mph? WTF? Since when? And why even bring up the C5-R against the Zakspeed Viper? That thing had only a 5-speed tranny in R&T's test. Did you miss the part about the Zakspeed Viper having a 6-speed tranny. Ohhhhh...whoops! Looks like there's more to 0-60 times than hp, and power to weight ratios, eh?

    And since you're so hung up on the C5-R and 0-60 times, take a look at pic #3 below. How do you explain that the 2815-lb (test weight), 610-hp C5-R is slower to 60 mph than the 3275-lb, 500-hp Lingenfelter 427 Z06? The C5-R is shod with pure racing slicks and carries 4.6 lbs per hp. The 427 Z06 is shod with street tires and carries nearly 2 more lbs per hp (6.55). Care to tell us why?

    "my first physics lesson", LOL. Oh, please, master!


    "and by the way, when i said 'at least 650hp' it is NOT a specific value, how the hell does 'at least' translate into 'exactly'"

    Are we rounding off by 50 horses or 100 horses? The point being: 750 hp is still "at least 650 hp", as is 1000 hp. Still, pretty freakin' vague, no? And since you specifically rounded off to within 50 horses, could you please tell us how you derived your performance calculations?


    "im sorry, sophistry is clearly a level above u, an unfair compliment - i take it back"

    Oh, no. I got it. I just don't see how it applies. Keep up the unfair compliments!

     
  24. I never stated it's a European race program, did I? I was discussing the NATURE of the program.

    From the ALMS website:
    "In an effort to expand upon the rich history and tradition of the 24 Hours of Le Mans, the Automobile Club de l'Ouest (ACO), organizers and rights holders for the trademarks and rules for the 24-hour race, agreed to license their internationally famous brand name and rules to successful businessman and entrepreneur Donald E. Panoz."


    So, I suppose you're going to argue that "the rich history and tradition of the 24 Hours of Le Mans" originated in America? The regulations and racing format of the AMERICAN le mans series originated in AMERICA? Ah, so that's what the "A" in ACO stands for...

    By the same token, does the fact that ASCAR takes place on British soil indicate that it indeed reflects the automotive tastes and motorsport preferences of your fellow countrymen?
     

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