Re: European Sports cars are better!

Discussion in '2000 Lingenfelter 650 Corvette' started by D Viper, Aug 10, 2002.

  1. you're doing it AGAIN!

    first my "about 650hp" was too specific, now its too vague!! make your mind up will u?

    "go dump money into an obscure (to most Americans) European racing program"...that sounds to me like you're saying its a european race program - then u go and say oh but i meant european-style, not european

    The Cien has 100hp/L, DI, mid V12 - r u suggesting that i should have guessed it was european because AMERICANS DONT MAKE ENGINES THAT GOOD!?!?!?!?....seems like its you who doesnt think too highly of american design.

    top speed of 270km/h will b the highest recorded speed - NOT its geared max - dont presume things. Stock Vipers are geared to do about 280mph (ABOUT - understand?) but only top out at about 185

    why do i compare a Viper racecar to a Vette racecar?...gee i dunno, maybe because theyre directly comparable?...maybe because the Vette took over the GTS class where the Viper left off?...the only difference u can come up with is the Viper has an extra gear - yes im sure that matters when they can both do 60mph in FIRST gear

    now, to your questions - Bentley engines are shit, they came out about 50years ago, 450hp/645lbft from a twin-turbo 6.8-litre engine?...shit compared to 550hp/664lbft from a twin-turbo 5.5-litre Maybach (and dont even tell me extra cylinders help)
    I dont know what came first, i would guess pushrods but im not sure, OHC replaced them in europe/japan but america soliders on (your point being?)
    Japan - 1 win at Le Mans, thats 1 more than America in the last 34 years. Considering Japan have only been making decent cars for that long, that aint a bad record. Poles and near-misses DO count, it shows who is the fastest and in some cases bad luck (Toyota 99). America has none of these in recent history, a couple of 5th places maybe. Japan doesnt need a good LM history when its got such a good WRC/F1 history.

    your Lingenfelter Vs C5-R comparison actually helps me out - all those race mods and its no faster than "stock"?....where might that be significant in the stock Viper Vs zakspeed viper comparison, huh?
     
  2. "you're doing it AGAIN!"

    And...?


    "first my 'about 650hp' was too specific, now its too vague!! make your mind up will u?"

    Asked you a simple question: from where do you derive your 650-hp guess? The point about vague vs. specific being: "at least" is vague, "650" points to a certainty within 50 hp. Put them together, and that's where the confusion starts. Understand now?


    "'go dump money into an obscure (to most Americans) European racing program'...that sounds to me like you're saying its a european race program - then u go and say oh but i meant european-style, not european"

    Somehow, "ALMS Champions" doesn't quite sound as good "24 Hours of Le Mans Winners", no?
    The NATURE of the racing should be obvious from our discussions here. I'm sorry if it was not specifically spelled out for you each time. In any event, the technicalities of the sport do originate from Europe, not America. I suppose we should call the Kenyan Rally a form of Kenyan motorsport, simply because it happens to take place on Kenyan soil?


    "The Cien has 100hp/L, DI, mid V12 - r u suggesting that i should have guessed it was european because AMERICANS DONT MAKE ENGINES THAT GOOD!?!?!?!?...."

    How can you say it's "good" when the proposed car would surely cost so much it would undermine GM's plans for profitability? Remember that the $1M McLaren F1 was 6.2-liters and produced that specific output. What makes GM (and Cosworth) think they can do the same with an engine with nearly 1.5 more liters of displacement? And to do it profitably? Ha, good luck. If the Cien is so "good", then why haven't enough people lined up to buy it? The project is dead for the time being. Not enough interest.
    No, I'm saying all of those other clues should have tipped you off. How they didn't is beyond me.


    "seems like its you who doesnt think too highly of american design."

    I do prefer to keep things simpler, rather than more complicated for complicaton's sake. From what I gather, the Cien project was a great PR stunt. Nothing more. I mean, interior design by Bvulgari? WTF?
    Hell, considering the power output of the Olds Aerotech research vehicle (750-1100 hp from a turbocharged 2.3-liter 4-cylinder) and the fact that plenty of grassroots motorsport engine builders can get 100 hp/l out of small-block Chevys (some of them breathing through CARBS, for chrissake), it's not a matter of "can't" as much as a matter of "won't" due to marketplace concerns and budgetary requirements.


    "top speed of 270km/h will b the highest recorded speed - NOT its geared max - dont presume things. Stock Vipers are geared to do about 280mph (ABOUT - understand?) but only top out at about 185"

    That does not refute my point. I'm not talking about a theoretical gearing. I'm talking gearing that affects (and produces) those real-world peformance numbers: 0-60 and top speed, as listed in the Zakspeed Viper's technical data. I know very damn well that theoretical top speed gearing is quite different from real-world top speed results. Don't presume to think I was talking about the former.

    And you still haven't answered the question:
    Considering a heavier, street-tired Viper that's geared (and I'm not talking about your totally-irrelevant-to-this-discussion theoretical top speed gearing here) to hit 190, is it so implausible that the much lighter Zakspeed Viper on pure racing slicks, equipped with a much better shifter, and geared such that it won't do more than 168, just MIGHT beat the stock car's 0-60 by 1 second?
    (Go ahead. Surprise me by actually answering this question before your next 5 posts.)


    "why do i compare a Viper racecar to a Vette racecar?...gee i dunno, maybe because theyre directly comparable?...maybe because the Vette took over the GTS class where the Viper left off?...the only difference u can come up with is the Viper has an extra gear - yes im sure that matters when they can both do 60mph in FIRST gear"

    Right, but what's not at issue is how fast they can go in first gear. What's at issue is how quick these cars will get to 60. Without knowing the final drive ratios, track conditions, tire compounds, etc. you can say for certain the C5-R will beat the Zakspeed Viper simply because of its power to weight ratio advantage?


    "now, to your questions - Bentley engines are shit, they came out about 50years ago, 450hp/645lbft from a twin-turbo 6.8-litre engine?...shit compared to 550hp/664lbft from a twin-turbo 5.5-litre Maybach (and dont even tell me extra cylinders help)"

    What's DaimlerChrysler's operating budget compared to Bentley? Even if the Maybach tanks, they've still got sales of sedans, trucks, and minivans to make up for any losses. Not quite the same boat for Bentley. It's called perspective, something you might want to use now and then. Might want to look at Tradition vs. Innovation, while you're at it.


    "I dont know what came first, i would guess pushrods but im not sure, OHC replaced them in europe/japan but america soliders on (your point being?)"

    Wrong, OHC have been around a lot longer, starting with the Otto engines from the 1870's. OHC did not *replace* pushrods in Europe/Japan. The point being, you can't refer to "good ol' pushrods" without also referring to "good ol'(der) ohc).


    "Japan - 1 win at Le Mans, thats 1 more than America in the last 34 years."

    LOL, now you've got to kidding. You talk about 70 overall races, and now you want to talk only about the "last 34 years"? C'mon, if you're going to slag 4-time winning Americans, you've got to slag the 1-time winning Japanese as well.


    "Considering Japan have only been making decent cars for that long, that aint a bad record."

    And since when did Japan start making decent cars? Was it after the implemention of TQM, brought to them by a certain American?
    Of course, when you don't have to worry about spending money on your own national security (for many decades after the War), your resources can be spent on many technical improvements and innovations. Curiously, Germany was in the same boat. Go figure.


    "Poles and near-misses DO count, it shows who is the fastest and in some cases bad luck (Toyota 99). America has none of these in recent history, a couple of 5th places maybe. Japan doesnt need a good LM history when its got such a good WRC/F1 history."

    Why does America even NEED a good LM history? LOL. The driving conditions in Europe and Japan don't even approach the driving conditions and needs of America, so why SHOULD Americans feel compelled to even compete in a form of motorsport that conforms to the preferences of other people, with vastly different motoring requirements?
    Hey, let's see Toyota compete in both GTS *AND* the prototype classes, and see how they do. I'll admit, that's the folly of the American racing program at Le Mans: they spread themselves too thin.


    "your Lingenfelter Vs C5-R comparison actually helps me out - all those race mods and its no faster than "stock"?"

    Which "stock" car are you referring to? I didn't mention any stock Corvettes in that comparo, did I?


    "....where might that be significant in the stock Viper Vs zakspeed viper comparison, huh?"

    Refer to my question above, which I've asked for the third time.
     
  3. im sorry but your posts get more and more laughable with each progressive day. "oh but i didnt say that", "no thats not what i meant"..."actually im gonna change my mind now"..."here's a clever way of changing the subject coz im clearly losing this argument"

    americans dont care about Le Mans? thats y theyve got the ALMS, thats why they had IMSA, thats y they build road courses for sportscar racing, thats y you're proud of the GT40, thats y the Viper GTS even exists, thats y the Saleen S7 was made, because america dont care

    another good point was the national security thing...thats the god damn government!!!...its not GM/Ford who pay for it u dumbass, car companies have all the money in the world

    apparently making a shit engine on a small budget is better than making a good engine on a big budget. No not really, the good engine is still better, and proves the point that pushrod bentleys suck

    So the Cien engine is crap now is it?...funny, u said it was better than your average Cadillac engine earlier (Northstars r pretty damn good)

    the 270kph thing DOES refute your point. U said the Zakspeed was geared to only reach 168, which means its got very short gears which help acceleration. If it is geared to do 230mph+ (as it is) but only reaches 168 on a track, it has long gears which equals poor acceleration. "geared" means theoretical gearing, always, NOT what u think it means which is the "drag speed" (185ish on a Viper)

    and that, my friend, leads us on to your question...who the hell cares which car has the better shifter when u DONT HAVE TO CHANGE GEAR to hit 60mph?...the ratios will be worse than the road car, for the simple reason that racecars arent designed to do standing starts...so the only advantage the racecar has is its tyres (which will be cold for the 0-60 run, hence shit) and the weight. So what do u get when u add inferior gear ratios, cold tyres and a weight advantage?...NOT a 25% decrease in 0-60, thats a HUGE jump

    the "stock" car is the Lingenfelter NA 427 which u referred to, i use "" because its not really stock, but is kinda

    keep 'em coming (ps. BrownDoggie if u r reading any of these, feel free to pick up our little discussion from before)
     
  4. “im sorry but your posts get more and more laughable with each progressive day. 'oh but i didnt say that', 'no thats not what i meant'...'actually im gonna change my mind now'...'here's a clever way of changing the subject coz im clearly losing this argument'”

    I’m sorry. Maybe what I should have said is that the Zakspeed Viper is GEARED SUCH THAT it will only top out at 168 mph, taking into account forces of drag, friction, etc. You know, the forces that most sane people on these forums consider when talking about gearing and top speed. There, that make you happy now? Quit being such a crybaby, criminey.
    Losing this argument? LOL. Last time I checked, you were 0-6. Want me to add up the new tally?


    ”americans dont care about Le Mans? thats y theyve got the ALMS, thats why they had IMSA, thats y they build road courses for sportscar racing, thats y you're proud of the GT40”

    Haha, that’s a good one. Why don’t you compare ALMS, IMSA, and sportscar racing VIEWERSHIP to NASCAR viewership. That should put things into perspective for you. The fact that Jim Hall’s Chapparal did well in roadracing in the ‘60s doesn’t mean roadracing is anywhere near the top of motorsport priorities for Americans. Ditto Dan Gurney’s Eagle, or the GT-40s. The fact that Americans sometimes win at Wimbledon doesn’t make tennis anymore of a popular sport here than baseball. The fact that a couple of Americans have won the crown jewel of world cycling, the Tour de France, doesn’t mean that we (as a whole) give a rat’s ass about world cycling. Wanna talk about world cycling viewership in America compared to football? Haha, good one. It’s about priorities and interest. Just because we’ve had a few successes here and there in Europe doesn’t mean our priorities and interest are there (or even here, when talking about sports of a European NATURE). By the same token, Ferrari has its mind set on Formula One. Not DTM, not WRC, not ASCAR. (My rebuttal to your claim that they’re only missing one championship still stands.)


    “thats y the Viper GTS even exists”

    And you can prove that? LOL. From C&D magazine:
    “For the GTS coupe, Team Viper executive engineer Roy Sjoberg says there were five goals:
    Reduce weight.
    Improve weight distribution
    Improve aerodynamics.
    Improve power and performance.
    And finally, meet 1997 safety standards”

    Now, if you can prove that the Viper GTS exists for the sole purpose of winning at Le Mans (or even as a high priority), then I’d like to hear it. Two other things that would probably rate higher than Le Mans as priorities: offering something a little more civilized than the original RT/10, and offering something for club racers who want to go up against Corvettes at the local track.


    “another good point was the national security thing...thats the god damn government!!!...its not GM/Ford who pay for it u dumbass, car companies have all the money in the world”

    And the more people you have in the government sector, the fewer people you have in the private sector. Simple. If your resources are pooled toward building weapons and holding off communist expansion, what kind of cars can you expect to make? What percentage of America’s budget goes toward the military-industrial complex, compared to other nations?
    BTW, who was Japan’s first “president” following the second World War?
    Does Italy’s government have any role in FIAT?


    “apparently making a shit engine on a small budget is better than making a good engine on a big budget. No not really, the good engine is still better, and proves the point that pushrod bentleys suck”

    And yet Bentleys can still command the price they do. Can’t be all that shitty. And more to the point of our discussion, how is the Corvette’s pushrod engine exactly shit?


    ”So the Cien engine is crap now is it?...funny, u said it was better than your average Cadillac engine earlier (Northstars r pretty damn good)”

    I’ve said no such thing. Please point out where I made any value judgement (ie, “good”, “bad”, better”, etc.) as it relates to the Cien’s engine.

    the 270kph thing DOES refute your point. U said the Zakspeed was geared to only reach 168, which means its got very short gears which help acceleration. If it is geared to do 230mph+ (as it is) but only reaches 168 on a track, it has long gears which equals poor acceleration.”

    What’s the final drive or axle ratio on the Zakspeed Viper? The individual gear ratios? Do you know?


    ”and that, my friend, leads us on to your question...who the hell cares which car has the better shifter when u DONT HAVE TO CHANGE GEAR to hit 60mph?...”

    The standard Viper does have to change gear to hit 60 mph. I was talking about standard Viper vs. Zakspeed Viper, right?


    “...so the only advantage the racecar has is its tyres (which will be cold for the 0-60 run, hence shit) and the weight.”

    How do you know they were done on cold tires? Does the text of the Zakspeed Viper overview say so?


    “the ‘stock’ car is the Lingenfelter NA 427 which u referred to, i use ‘’ because its not really stock, but is kinda”

    Hey. Stock is stock. There’s really no two ways about it. A car is either stock, or it’s not. And in the case of the Lingenfelter 427, it’s clearly not stock when you’re increasing displacement by OVER 1 LITER. LOL, and you accuse ME of being wishy-washy.
    Point of fact is, the C5-R with all of those mods IS faster than stock (a STOCK Z06).
    And if your assessment of “faster” is defined by 0-60, then yes, the C5-R is no faster than the 427 Z06. Fortunately, GM doesn’t go by your yardstick. Witness the C5-R being considerably faster in 0-100 and the quarter mile than the STOCK Z06, and still a bit ahead of even the Lingenfelter Z06.
    The point still stands: Yes, you CAN tune a Z06 to beat even the C5-R in 0-60. Yes, you CAN tune a Viper to beat a GTS-R (even through the quarter mile). And if that’s the case (as it is here), what does that say about your precious laws of physics (when you’re only looking at power-to-weight ratios)?

    ”keep 'em coming”

    Sure. BTW, what model and year Audi did/does your father have?
     
  5. yeah cos if u mean north america i prefer usa or north america.
    (its my fault im a geography student im a pain in the arse for stuff like that
     
  6. right just to get into the discussion a little bit

    "And yet Bentleys can still command the price they do. Can’t be all that shitty"

    you dont really buy a bentley for the engine do you? its the luxury and prestige.
    you wouldnt pay £200,000+ for a car with the performance of a bentley if thats what you were after.
     
  7. and to try to stop this 0-60 argument, not only have the race cars got the wrong sort of gearbox for sprints. they are set to handle stupidly well, this requires very different suspension settings to a car set to do sprints or road work. the road vette/viper is most likely set to transfer a fair bit of weight to the back to get it to grip, the race cars are set hard so they keep all round balance under acceleration/braking and cornering. they dont need to worry about shifting weight rearwards for grip as that big bit of carbon fibre on the back sorts that at anything over 80mph(racecars like these spend most of their time well over that).

    ok thats my bit for now, hope its ok for everyone to understand and agree.

    oh another problem with the race gearboxes (i think they are straight cut "dog boxes" dunno if its a universal name) they dump all the power just in an instant, combined with a race clutch u gonna have to ease off to avoid wheelspin evev if ya tires are warm

    I know synchromesh boxes can dump power quickly but its not as efficiently as a dog box so less power trying to grip

    ok now i think im done.
    later lads.
     
  8. Right, but I'm not talking about North America. When you listen to BBC News, and you hear, "Today, in America..." do you think of North America? Does Canada or Mexico even enter your mind?
     
  9. Yeah, but who turns down a Bentley simply because of its pushrods? Does anyone go, "Too bad that Bentley will do 0-60 in around 6 seconds. I'd like something slower, thank you."
     
  10. Quite right. And until we know the spring rates on these cars, the conditions of the test, the skill of the driver involved, we just won't know, now will we? As I've said before: too many variables to consider. (And as a side note, I'd imagine the springs for a 24 hour enduro might be a bit softer than ones set up for a 2-hour sprint.)
    And even if we DID know the answer, there's no guarantee that the laws of physics play themselves out each and every single time. Just as an example, when R&T tested the Viper ACR, the best they could do was a 4.6-second 0-60. Motorweek took only 4.0 in their ACR. That's a .6 second spread for cars that are more or less (barring production variances) IDENTICAL. Ditto with the regular Viper GTS. R&T took 4.5 seconds to hit 60. Popular Mechanics did it in 3.9. Again, what are basically 2 identical cars results in two very different 0-60 times. Granted, Motor Trend and Car and Driver are more consistent with the Viper. But the range is there to consider.
    In December of last year, the Z06 tested by C&D hit 60 in 4 seconds flat. In September of this year, another Z06 was tested in the same magazine, and its 0-60 dropped by .4 second. Now, consider what that Z06 might do under ideal conditions on slicks, with much less weight.
     
  11. get your terminology right Guibo, "geared max" means theoretical max if there was no drag (redline in top) - any engineer knows that. "Drag max" means max real world speed, neither of which is 168 on the zakspeed, that is the "recorded max" which depends on which track you're on (and this isnt me being picky, its called science)

    dont get started on NASCAR again, dont make me ask everyone else what they think of NASCAR, sure its entertaining if u like crashes and the sound of 800hp (which i do)...but it is irrelevant, no relation to road cars, no relation to anything, plus technically its decades ago. Baseball sucks aswell, NHL/NBA r much better - do not under any circumstances presume that popularity and quality are related....do N-SYNC/Backstreet boys make good music?...hell no

    about the Viper, y would u wanna improve aero and weight distrib if u werent gonna go racing?...y the blue n white paint job?...y the Cobra Daytona side profile?...y the RACECAR VERSION?

    america's government has nothing 2 do with GM/Ford, they make cars regardless of how many missiles the gov makes, regardless of how many sweet-ass fighter planes Northrop Grumman make etc

    i dunno who the hell Japs president was now or then, not a clue

    Bentleys arent worth $400,000...they aint even worth $50,000. Theyre bought by people with too much money who dont even care, they use pushrods coz their owners dont even know the difference

    lingenfelters arent stock cars anymore r they, so theyre modified, hence not production, hence their performance figures are irrelevant??

    the problem-car was my dads '93 Audi 80 2.0E (with optional sports speering wheel, body-coloured wing mirrors, rear spoiler and alloy wheels!...if you're interested)
     
  12. "get your terminology right Guibo, 'geared max' means theoretical max if there was no drag (redline in top) - any engineer knows that."

    So your 210 mph figure was a "geared max" theoretical figure? Ha, didn't think so. Welcome to the real world, where we are talking about real world results (which is what is listed in the Zakspeed Viper specifications). Any dumbass knows that. How it slipped by you...I'm not surprised anymore.


    "dont get started on NASCAR again, dont make me ask everyone else what they think of NASCAR, sure its entertaining if u like crashes and the sound of 800hp (which i do)...but it is irrelevant, no relation to road cars, no relation to anything, plus technically its decades ago. Baseball sucks aswell, NHL/NBA r much better - do not under any circumstances presume that popularity and quality are related....do N-SYNC/Backstreet boys make good music?...hell no"

    Haha, you're a funny one. You threaten "don't make me ask everyone else what they think of NASCAR"...and then you go on to conclude that that which is popular is not necessarily GOOD. LOL, you can't have it both ways. Precisely my point. It doesn't freakin' matter how many people prefer roadracing or F1 to NASCAR. It's totally irrelevant. But in America, that's where the money goes, and nothing you say here will change that fact.
    On the issue of "irrelevant" I'd say there are a lot more vehicles running around with NASCAR-like pushrod engines than 3.0-liter NA 780-hp, 18,000-rpm engines mated to 7-speed paddle shifters, don't you? It's called Ford/Chevy/MoPar crate engines. Look into it.


    "about the Viper, y would u wanna improve aero and weight distrib if u werent gonna go racing?"

    Hmmm...I guess aero improvements have nothing to do with Corporate Average Fuel Economy? Hmmm?! I guess a closed top does NOT provide for better weatherproofing for the occupants against the elements? It does NOT provide for a quieter, wind-free driving experience?
    On the issue of weight distribution, can you honestly tell me you've never probed the limits of your car on the street? Never seen "what she'll do" in the rain? Pullleeaze. Are the benefits of improved weight distribution seen ONLY on the track? Dear me. What was BMW thinking with its M Coupe?! Are you going to argue that the M Coupe was built to race at Le Mans?
    While we're on this subject, how the hell do electrically-activated mirrors, windows, and door latches help at winning a race? How the hell does a 200-watt Alpine stereo system help in winning a race?

    When are you going to answer my question: what's so crappy about the Corvette's engine? And in particular, the Z06.


    "..y the blue n white paint job?...y the Cobra Daytona side profile?...y the RACECAR VERSION?"

    Yes, it's an homage to the Cobra Daytona. Yes, the one that drove Ferrari out of the GT class at Le Mans for many years, winning the class in '64. The one that took home the FIA GT title in '65 (and probably would have won without Enzo's shenanigans in '64).
    Does any of this PROVE your theory that the Viper GTS exists only as a car to be campaigned at Le Mans? Not at all. See Roy Sjoberg's points (1-5) in my previous post. Got it? Good. If not (and I suspect you still don't get it), refer to the pages below. Goodness. I don't know about you, but I see words/phrases like
    REFINED
    COMFORTABLE
    MORE APPEALING
    REFINEMENT
    A MUCH DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENT
    For the life of me, I can't see the references to Le Mans. Oh, wait. There it is. On page 89. The direct references to the Daytona Cobra Coupe start on page 76. And this sounds to you like the GTS's existence is for racing at Le Mans? Haha. If it were priority #1 (as you've claimed), shouldn't it be on page 76?


    "america's government has nothing 2 do with GM/Ford, they make cars regardless of how many missiles the gov makes, regardless of how many sweet-ass fighter planes Northrop Grumman make etc"

    It's called pooling of resources, dumbass. Look into it. If you've got people concentrating on a certain industry, you can't expect them to do equally well in all other areas. Example: the Swiss are world reknowned for their watches. But what sweet-ass fighter planes do they make? What supercars do they make? Any minivans?
    The Chinese: what kinds of cars do they make? Supercomputers, of their own designs? But holy shit. You talk about a military arsenal that's second to none. Goddamn.
    No else can make a fine cigar like the Cubans. Yet, at what else do they excel? Are the Americans, Brits, or Germans known around the world for their ability to make fine cigars? Nope. Closest thing MIGHT be Denmark, but even those are machine-rolled. Any great Danish fighter planes or cars?
    And then you take a look at the Japanese, after WWII. Defeated, demoralized, and crushed by American-led Allied forces, they were barred from having a standing army following the war, by a treaty to which they agreed. Fair enough. The US would provide the provisional government, to help rebuild the country, to move it toward democracy and away from its imperial, war-mongering past. As a result, the people shifted their manufacture away from weapons of war, and toward more utilitarian items: housewares, garments, and (yes) CARS. But most of their stuff was utter rubbish until they adopted the Total Quality Management system introduced by a certain American, Edward Deming.
    And your comment "America's government has nothing to do with Ford/GM" is not accurate either. Much of the production of cars during WWII was reduced, so that the factories could be converted to making weapons. Again, the concept of available RESOURCES. Human resources, that is. The same can happen again in the next great war.


    "i dunno who the hell Japs president was now or then, not a clue"

    Following the second world war, the overseer of Japan's rebuilding, and the leader of its provisional military government was...General Dougals MacArthur. The US still maintains a military presence via USAF air bases to this day. Sadly, we do not enjoy the benefit of Japan's military protection of our land.


    "Bentleys arent worth $400,000...they aint even worth $50,000. Theyre bought by people with too much money who dont even care, they use pushrods coz their owners dont even know the difference"

    Again. Another sweeping generalization. Care to back up your claim?


    "lingenfelters arent stock cars anymore r they, so theyre modified, hence not production, hence their performance figures are irrelevant??"

    How are they irrelevant? Somehow, automotive tuners are exempt from your unwavering laws of physics?
    Last I heard, the Zakspeed Viper ain't exactly a stock production car either.


    "the problem-car was my dads '93 Audi 80 2.0E (with optional sports speering wheel, body-coloured wing mirrors, rear spoiler and alloy wheels!...if you're interested)"

    Ah, I see. This was right around the time of their wildly successful re-introduction of AWD to roadracing, wasn't it? Right around the time of their Pikes Peak wins? What were you saying about the technical expertise of car companies that excel in world motorsports?
    BTW, you're comparing a nearly decade-old Audi's reliability to that of TVR? Congrats. (Keep in mind my comments about available resources and BUDGETS, and you just might formulate a reasonable rebuttal here.)
     
  13. my 210mph figure was the drag max, not the geared max

    u say theres no 780hp 3-litre NA roadcar engines, correct, but nor is there 800hp 5.9-litre NA roadcar engines either. Just because pushrods are common doesnt mean NASCAR engines r common. All european/japanese cars have more in common with F1 (OHC, Fuel Inj, 4v per cyl, alu block/head etc) than NASCAR...even modern US cars have those qualities aswell. How many US cars on sale today have carburettors?...none?

    liked your comment that the Vipers aero-design was to improve fuel economy HAHAHAHAHA, yeah thats what the 8-litre V10 is for aswell isnt it? Of course the Viper GTS is a roadcar and so incorporates features that are expected on $70,000 cars, but the reason they made the GTS was to homologate the race version. I have a concept car VHS where the guy who was in charge of Dodge's design department (cant remember his name...he collects hot rods) said the GTS would take the Viper name on2 the racetrack

    your whole pooling resources story is bullshit...100%

    i keep on saying GM/Ford have all the money in the world, USA has the biggest car companies in the world, the biggest aeroplane companies in the world, the biggest computer companies in the world, the best economy, the best MILITARY. Which field of industry does america NOT cover?...nothing i dont think - because the government and the companies are independent of each other. England used to have everything aswell, before it turned shit, France makes most things well - look at Japan, the best electronics and arguably some of the best cars/planes/boats. Dont compare them to shitholes like Cuba where there probably isnt even enough educated ppl on the island to get together to construct a car

    finally technical expertise and reliability arent necessarily related - the Audi is a good car, it just has a few problems, like all cars do (since you're an Autocar reader, im sure u will have read letters sent in explaining all the trouble Merc S-Class owners experience)

    BTW, the R26B rotary engine isnt even remotely street-legal and wont fit in an RX7 engine bay
     
  14. Whoa!! I'm gone ONE WEEKEND to celebrate my beloved Corp's 227th birthday and look what happens. Chicane, buddy, you're starting to sound decidedly anti-American, although I'm sure it's now how you mean it. You smoked me on our last debacle pages ago, let's see if I can jump back in with even an ounce of dignity.

    "How many US cars on sale today have carburettors?...none?"

    Jeg's High Performance and Summit Racing will tell you that carburetors are still a huge market in today's automotive world. As "primitive drag-racing rednecks" we know that you can STILL get more raw horsepower from a carburetor than from even the most sophisticated electronic fuel injection to date. Shuck's automotive will tell you they sell thousands of $$$ in carburetors, intakes, etc. each day. Maybe it's just us "rednecks" like to get our hands into our automobiles, change out a camshaft and a true-rolling valvetrain to get more high-end horsepower; like to see you do that shit on a "Euro-trend following Japanese engine."

    "liked your comment that the Vipers aero-design was to improve fuel economy HAHAHAHAHA, yeah thats what the 8-litre V10 is for aswell isnt it?"

    Maybe not, but the 405-horsepower 5.7-liter LS6 motor in the Z06 corvette got 28 MPG when Motor Trend took it on a road trip to Vegas. Irrelevent to the Viper's discussion? Maybe, with a "huge 5.7 liter powerplant" getting good mileage, the S2000, which gets comperable mileage on the highway with a 2.0-liter motor, whould feel mighty embarassed.

    Technical expertise and reliability may not be concurrently related, but technical EXPERIENCE and reliablity should be - a valid point since you refered to Audi and Mercedes in your examples. Also valid, as I'm sure you'll agree, in as much mud-slinging that goes on in reference to American automobiles being less reliable than Euroopean or Japanese cars. Every company has had it's problems, as well as it's benchmarks in reliability. Except maybe Kia. No benchmarks there.

    Europe has a much richer road-racing history than America - I'll calmly hand you that one. But counting us out completely is a large mistake. And since when did 900-horsepower 5.9-liter N/A powerplants become irrelevant? Your anti-NASCAR settiment smells disturbingly like fear. After all, I am an intelligent American, and happen to like NASCAR very much. Something about being able to measure a half pound of air in one shock, and that being the difference between victory and defeat in a purely skills-based recing extraveganza...

    Or maybe it's just that I like the sound of 900 horsepower cars crashing into walls at 200 mph. Oh, by the way, you were right about one thing... America DEFINATELY has the best Military.
     
  15. “my 210mph figure was the drag max, not the geared max”

    Ah, but you didn’t say it was the drag max, now did you? Just as I never specifically said the 270 kmh figure was the theoretical geared max.


    ”u say theres no 780hp 3-litre NA roadcar engines, correct, but nor is there 800hp 5.9-litre NA roadcar engines either. Just because pushrods are common doesnt mean NASCAR engines r common.”

    Get a clue, do I have to spell everything out for you? Take a look at the bore/stroke dimensions used in an F1 car, the materials used (titanium), the valve mechanism (pneumatic actuation), and you’ll see there’s very little directly related to roadgoing cars.


    ”liked your comment that the Vipers aero-design was to improve fuel economy HAHAHAHAHA, yeah thats what the 8-litre V10 is for aswell isnt it?”

    Who said it’s primary reason was for fuel economy? I only said that was one of the benefits of having a coupe form. Idiot. Besides, I thought we were talking about the GTS, not the RT/10 which also has an 8-liter V10. Wanna discuss WHY the Viper has an 8-liter V10 in the first place? Wanna talk about why the Viper has a 1-4 skip-shift feature? How the hell does skip-shift help you win at Le Mans? But, ah. It proved quite useful in C&D’s comparo where it matched both the NSX-T and the 993 Turbo S for fuel economy: 16 mpg. This, from a pushrod V-10 with more than 100% more displacement.



    I have a concept car VHS where the guy who was in charge of Dodge's design department (cant remember his name...he collects hot rods) said the GTS would take the Viper name on2 the racetrack

    That’s fine and dandy. Easier to say this than to (god forbid) PROVE it ,as I’ve done above? What part of those 2 scans did you NOT understand?
    If the Viper GTS was indeed intended for Le Mans, you’d think it adopt the GT2 nomenclature for that class (pre-’99), much like the Porsche GT2, no?


    ”i keep on saying GM/Ford have all the money in the world, USA has the biggest car companies in the world, the biggest aeroplane companies in the world, the biggest computer companies in the world, the best economy, the best MILITARY. Which field of industry does america NOT cover?...nothing i dont think - because the government and the companies are independent of each other. England used to have everything aswell, before it turned shit, France makes most things well - look at Japan, the best electronics and arguably some of the best cars/planes/boats. Dont compare them to shitholes like Cuba where there probably isnt even enough educated ppl on the island to get together to construct a car”

    America doesn’t make clothes or model cars like it used to. Neither does Germany, for that matter. Notice how Paul’s Model Art (once a primarily German concern) has everything made in China? Ever noticed how much of the best toys, clothes, and even many of the new electronics are coming out of China?
    So what if GM/Ford have all the money in the world? What good does that do if it primary customers usually want minivans, SUV’s, and trucks? The best-selling vehicles in the US aren’t even passenger CARS, LOL.




    “finally technical expertise and reliability arent necessarily related - the Audi is a good car, it just has a few problems, like all cars do (since you're an Autocar reader, im sure u will have read letters sent in explaining all the trouble Merc S-Class owners experience)”

    Hmmm…curious. Mercedes quality starts to go downhill soon after the Chrysler acquisition. Wouldn’t have anything to do with RESOURCES, now would it? Restructuring costs?
    And dumbass, reliability is obviously related to technical expertise. It takes technical expertise to make things powerful, fuel-efficient, emissions-compliant, and (YES) reliable. Consumers are demanding higher and higher levels of durability in the goods they buy. Witness that the Viper is available with a 7-year/70K mile warranty.
    And in the world of racing, if you’re an engineer and you claim reliability has nothing to do with your job, you’ll soon be flipping burgers. In F1, every component, in the engine, in the brakes, in the suspension, is designed with the regulations in mind, but ALSO with the expected lifetime of a race in mind. Engines are built to exact tolerances, designed to last the length of the race, and not much longer. Components are built with lightness in mind, plus the minimum durability to endure the stresses exerted upon them. What good is a camshaft, crankshaft, or connecting rod if it’s light enough to allow 22,000-rpm levels, but won’t even last 1 hour of racing?
    In a 24 hour race, it takes technical expertise to find the right balance between power, economy, comfort (for the drivers), etc. Can you really deny this?


    In any case, this discussion is going nowhere, and you're not even answering my questions. All you do is sit over there on your side of the pond and PRESUME to know what the Viper is about, you PRESUME that American driving and sporting tastes SHOULD be like those in Europe. And when faced with EVIDENCE to the contray of what you believed, you go off on other meaningless tangets. As such, this thread ends now.
     

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