Re: Have no fear, the Bouncers are here!

Discussion in '2002 Honda Civic Type-R' started by buzzbomber, Aug 9, 2002.

  1. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from TomW</i>
    <b>All this will be pretty obvious to most, but not all apparently.

    To make more horse power, you basically have to burn more fuel. There are 3 routes to doing this:

    1: Increase the capacity of your engine. The bigger the cylinders, the more fuel burnt each cycle. US V8s use this.

    Advantages: Power is available right across the rev range.
    Disadvantages: High fuel consumption right across the rev range, the engine itself is physically large and probably heavy.


    2: Compress the air and fuel in the engine. Forced induction such as turbocharging and supercharging compress more fuel into the cylinder, so more is burnt each cycle.

    Advantages: Power is available from quite low in the rev range. The engine can be small.
    Disadvantages: Throttle response can be slow. Fuel economy is generally bad.


    3: Have shorter cycles. Basically, increasing the RPM means that more fuel is burnt. This is the principle behind variable valve techniques - they allow the engine to maintain efficiency at higher rpm while still being drivable at low rpm.

    Advantages: Fuel economy at low rpm is good. The engine can be small and light.
    Disadvantages: At low rpm the power output is poor.


    The three types all sound different, and people have different sound preferences. One approach to power has been to combine 1 and 3, as seen in Ferrari engines. They are getting 400bhp from a 3.6 L NA V8. That peak power doesn't come in until a screaming 8500rpm. Does that make the Ferrari 360 a poor car? I don't think so. Peak torque is only 275lb/ft, which is terrible compared to american muscle cars with similar power. But the performance is excellent, and the car incredibly exciting to drive, partly because of the metallic Ferrari wail at 8000rpm.

    So Honda's VTEC technology is good if you want to combine good economy with good performance. I also quite like the narrow power band because it is combined with an excellent 6 speed gearbox. It is rewarding keeping the engine screaming in the VTEC zone with rapid shifting, etc. The only annoyance is that "lazy" overtaking isn't possible. If I want to overtake, I really have to drop a cog or two first.

    Tom</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    See kids, this is how you formulate an opinion, none of this "jap cars a gay because people put wings on them so they must all be crap...btw whats a skyline?"
     
  2. Buzzbomer, you need to realize something that is very obvious. You are not answering most of my questions. Maybe you think you are in your eyes, but your not. I'll gladly hear your opionions, but please don't use them to answer my questions. Try to use facts and evidence to answer them, they usually work better.

    I will say you did answer one of my questions. Now if you could please just tell me what VTC phisically does to the engine, that would be great. Thanks

    Once again you read right over a few of my other questions. Annoying or not I will repost them for you becuase you seem to miss a lot of them.

    1)How is high end torque beneficial over low end torque?

    2)How is this car's method of getting 200hp better than turbo or S/C, because Honda's method creates a high and narrow powerband?

    As for the level of my knowedge of automobiles, that is your opinion. But I have stated many more facts than you in this forum

    FACT:This car has a high, narrow powerband

    FACT:The graph give indisputable evedince of the high, narrow powerband

    FACT:Using turbo or S/C on cars is usually more effective

    Now thats three more facts than you have stated.

    As for my "clever way" of avioding addressing other posts, I try to address evey post that is directed towards me and I believe that I have done a pretty good job of that. Even though I'm not the "Bouncer" of this forum, is there any quesions that you would like to ask me?
     
  3. TomW that was a very good post. I just want to correct you on a few things.

    First of all if you turbo charge or S/C an engine it does force more air into it but it doesn't force more fuel in. This keeps the fuel economy fairly good. I have a 4.3L turbo charged engine (15psi) and it gets 18mpg. Not to shabby?

    I don't see how VVT helps maintain fuel efficency. Last time i checked VVT opens up the vales more at higher revs, letting more fuel in. I believe this would lower your fuel efficency.

    Yes a Ferrari only has 275lb/ft of torque but it also has something called a torque curve, thanks to a larger displacement engine. That is something this Honda definatley does not have.

    If you like to "keep the engine screaming in the VTEC zone" thats great, but you have to admit that turbo or super charging is much better. It is obviously better to have torque on tap all the way through the revs. But if thats not how you like to get your torque, go ahead and be at a disadvantage.
     
  4. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Heavy C</i>
    <b>TomW that was a very good post. I just want to correct you on a few things.

    First of all if you turbo charge or S/C an engine it does force more air into it but it doesn't force more fuel in. This keeps the fuel economy fairly good. I have a 4.3L turbo charged engine (15psi) and it gets 18mpg. Not to shabby?

    I don't see how VVT helps maintain fuel efficency. Last time i checked VVT opens up the vales more at higher revs, letting more fuel in. I believe this would lower your fuel efficency.

    Yes a Ferrari only has 275lb/ft of torque but it also has something called a torque curve, thanks to a larger displacement engine. That is something this Honda definatley does not have.

    If you like to "keep the engine screaming in the VTEC zone" thats great, but you have to admit that turbo or super charging is much better. It is obviously better to have torque on tap all the way through the revs. But if thats not how you like to get your torque, go ahead and be at a disadvantage. </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    But on the car that gets 18mpg, what is it? If it is something like a Mustang, yes that is respectable. But if it's a Civic HX, that would be terrible. Please tell me what kind of car it is. And also, when turbochargers are added to cars, it wears out the engine faster without the proper care and therefore decreases engine life and usually reliability. Also, not all mechanics know their way around a turbo or supercharger, and in my experience it costs more to fix a problem on an engine like this as opposed to a NA engine. Therefore, if Honda values engine life and cost over power and revs, they would go with something apart from a turbocharger. Hope this at least starts to anwer your question. I will now go to work on the other ones.<!-- Signature -->
     
  5. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from SeansVette</i>
    <b>

    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Just because an engine has a rev limiter on it doesn’t mean anything. Why would you run a V8 to 9000RPM if power drops off after 6000-7000RPM? When you run your car to redline and shift, the revs should drop back down around peak torque. It wouldn’t make much sense to drop out of your power band after you shift, or run it out so long that you never hit your power band again after shifting. Torque is what makes the car move and torque is a force, I still say peak torque is stressing the engine. I had an 82’ Chevy Cavalier 5sp and I would run every gear out until it wouldn’t go any faster. It had no rev limiter or tachometer, but it never flew apart on me. It was a good little car, looked like shit, but good. Anyways, I guess I just don’t get it!

    BTW, you not saying a V8 at redline is under less stress that a S2000 at redline?
     
  6. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Heavy C</i>
    <b></b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    You have no clue what Honda is actually trying to accomplish with their automobiles.

    FACT: This car has a high, narrow power band

    FACT: Who doesn’t know this???

    FACT: The graph give indisputable evidence of the high, narrow power band

    FACT: YOU CAN READ!!

    FACT: Using turbo or S/C on cars is usually more effective

    FACT: Again, who doesn’t know this?

    This doesn’t show me anything about your knowledge of cars or engines. It’s common knowledge. Why don’t you lecture us on VTEC since we don’t know anything about cars? We can call you DR. VTEC then.
     
  7. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from civichatch</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Heavy C</i>
    <b></b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    You have no clue what Honda is actually trying to accomplish with their automobiles.

    FACT: This car has a high, narrow power band

    FACT: Who doesn’t know this???

    FACT: The graph give indisputable evidence of the high, narrow power band

    FACT: YOU CAN READ!!

    FACT: Using turbo or S/C on cars is usually more effective

    FACT: Again, who doesn’t know this?

    This doesn’t show me anything about your knowledge of cars or engines. It’s common knowledge. Why don’t you lecture us on VTEC since we don’t know anything about cars? We can call you DR. VTEC then.
    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->LMAO! i like this guy<!-- Signature -->
     
  8. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from civichatch</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Heavy C</i>
    <b></b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    You have no clue what Honda is actually trying to accomplish with their automobiles.

    FACT: This car has a high, narrow power band

    FACT: Who doesn’t know this???

    FACT: The graph give indisputable evidence of the high, narrow power band

    FACT: YOU CAN READ!!

    FACT: Using turbo or S/C on cars is usually more effective

    FACT: Again, who doesn’t know this?

    This doesn’t show me anything about your knowledge of cars or engines. It’s common knowledge. Why don’t you lecture us on VTEC since we don’t know anything about cars? We can call you DR. VTEC then.
    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Im not addressing you dumass
     
  9. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from civichatch</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Heavy C</i>
    <b></b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    You have no clue what Honda is actually trying to accomplish with their automobiles.

    FACT: This car has a high, narrow power band

    FACT: Who doesn’t know this???

    FACT: The graph give indisputable evidence of the high, narrow power band

    FACT: YOU CAN READ!!

    FACT: Using turbo or S/C on cars is usually more effective

    FACT: Again, who doesn’t know this?

    This doesn’t show me anything about your knowledge of cars or engines. It’s common knowledge. Why don’t you lecture us on VTEC since we don’t know anything about cars? We can call you DR. VTEC then.
    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Guess who doesn't know half of these things? Thats right, our trusty bouncer, BUZZBOMER. I'm not trying to prove my knowledge to you. I have been arguing with Buzzbomer over these points for the last few weeks. Now if you wanna step in here and be a sarcastic jackass, at least direct it towards the right person. I know all those things, and yes they are common knowledge to 99.9% of people. But guess what? I found the .1% right on this website.

    Once again buzzbomer don't just read over my questions and instead congradulate that guy for showing you that your an idiot. Try to answer them Mr. Bouncer
     
  10. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from civichatch</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Heavy C</i>
    <b></b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    I am directing my comments towards the right person. How many times do people have to answer your questions before you leave this forum? Honda has the best NA I4 and NA V6 engine (6-7 years old now) on the US market, along with the cars they are in. They have the best hybrid car on the market, MPG. In fact, it was the first hybrid car on the US market. They only thing they don’t have is the best NA V8 engine, they haven’t produced one yet. They produce motorcycles, cars, and engines for just about everything. They even created ASIMO. But once again, I don’t get it!! </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    YOU DON'T GET IT. I'm trying to prove, to Buzzbomer, that this car is not for racing and that it would be better turbo or super charged. He doesn't understand that. He thinks this car doesn't even have a high narrow power band. He is blind to the fact that this car is not a factory racer. And all that stuff that you listed as common knowledge, he has no idea. He thinks totally the opposite of those things

    Yes Honda does make excelent I4 engines but thats not even what were arguing about. No one is doubting this cars role as a commuter. If you would just read the last few pages you would see that this has been stated sevral times. But looks like you just had to bring it up again.
     
  11. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Heavy C</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from civichatch</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Heavy C</i>
    <b></b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    I am directing my comments towards the right person. How many times do people have to answer your questions before you leave this forum? Honda has the best NA I4 and NA V6 engine (6-7 years old now) on the US market, along with the cars they are in. They have the best hybrid car on the market, MPG. In fact, it was the first hybrid car on the US market. They only thing they don’t have is the best NA V8 engine, they haven’t produced one yet. They produce motorcycles, cars, and engines for just about everything. They even created ASIMO. But once again, I don’t get it!! </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    YOU DON'T GET IT. I'm trying to prove, to Buzzbomer, that this car is not for racing and that it would be better turbo or super charged. He doesn't understand that. He thinks this car doesn't even have a high narrow power band. He is blind to the fact that this car is not a factory racer. And all that stuff that you listed as common knowledge, he has no idea. He thinks totally the opposite of those things

    Yes Honda does make excelent I4 engines but thats not even what were arguing about. No one is doubting this cars role as a commuter. If you would just read the last few pages you would see that this has been stated sevral times. But looks like you just had to bring it up again. </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->ahhh....so why the hell dont you just say all that in the first place, instead of talking about a bunch of crap, which isnt in the correct context. sure the cars powerband is high, but its not as narrow as you would think. in fact, its much better than most hondas. anyways, it IS a factory racer. you, ignorant fool, need to understand that there are racing leagues out there that race 90 hp double barrell carbuerated CRX engines. they are slow, but still, they race. you dont like that. and they dont care. nor do i. ever heard of the SCCA? there are lots of them. the independant honda racing league has its own races too. so, the CTR is a factory racer. never did i say it can race against a 360 modena and blow it away.

    it wouldnt be better T/C or S/C'ed. its a HONDA. if it was meant to be better with F.I., then dont you think honda would have made it that way? they HAVE broken sales records every month for the last few years. YOU like turbos and supers, but all motor is so much more pure. so much harder. you dont seem to get that. you own a typhoon (LOL) which is a fast truck/SUV. just because thats what you like, doesnt mean that the whole world should adapt to that.

    anyways, this engine is of an OPEN DECK design, meaning its not very strong for boost above around 8-10 psi. so again, you prove your ignorance.

    so there. it IS a factory racer, it WOULDNT be better turboed, unless sleeved and with a deck plate, and it seems that all your OPINIONS are just that. small opinions.

    any more questions?<!-- Signature -->
     
  12. EXCELLENT POST BUZZBOMBER,I agree entirely with what you said ,this is a race ready car.But please don't bother trying to explain this to HeavyC he has his"opinions" on everything and he won't change his mind .Thats fine, we know whats up ,just let him ramble on,'cause he gonna do it anyway if we argue wit' him or not.

     
  13. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Tuscani</i>
    <b>EXCELLENT POST BUZZBOMBER,I agree entirely with what you said ,this is a race ready car.But please don't bother trying to explain this to HeavyC he has his"opinions" on everything and he won't change his mind .Thats fine, we know whats up ,just let him ramble on,'cause he gonna do it anyway if we argue wit' him or not.

    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->yeah thats very true. its really annoying. :[<!-- Signature -->
     
  14. Guys this is a hatchback! yes a 2Ltr hatchback, Its not a drag car it was designed to be raced on a track thats why its in the British Touring Car Championship, In both class's and so far its winning the production class.
    Because of my job at a large import/export company I get to drive these cars daily and they live upto there title of fastest hatchback in the UK, But its not untill you take a bent that you realise how good this car handle's.
    Its a racing hatchback and its a good one.Testdrive one you'll be supprized!
     
  15. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Roots</i>
    <b>Guys this is a hatchback! yes a 2Ltr hatchback, Its not a drag car it was designed to be raced on a track thats why its in the British Touring Car Championship, In both class's and so far its winning the production class.
    Because of my job at a large import/export company I get to drive these cars daily and they live upto there title of fastest hatchback in the UK, But its not untill you take a bent that you realise how good this car handle's.
    Its a racing hatchback and its a good one.Testdrive one you'll be supprized!</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    it is true...i wish i had the civic type R for autocrossing; it will decimate all <!-- Signature -->
     
  16. Shut the f uck up you moron! What the hell do you know about cars? Your probably one of those kids that follows suit with everything his dad does. So obviously your a domestic fan, who has not really got set in with reality. You know a "HUGE" amount of domestics have imported parts in them? Nowadays there is very little amount of cars out there that are fully integrated with "All American" or "All imported parts".
    You are truly a daddy's boy aren't ya? Daddy's boy meaning that both of you take turns pushing each other's shit in while your mom sits there and watches. You sound like you come from a sick family! Call peoples gay and fa ggot all you want but your the one with the problem Butt-Pirate!<!-- Signature -->
     
  17. gg onley a few posts
     
  18. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Cantstopusnow34</i>
    <b>U and buzzbomer should band together and have sex u #%$gots anyone who supports hondas should be straped into one and pushed over a cliff, hondas r for pussys who cant afford real cars idiot </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->no really im not gay. just ask your mom. best 50 cents ive ever spent in my life. "who cant afford real cars idiot." hm... so what do you drive, a hyundai? a daewoo? a kia? i think youre jealous because youre only 12 and like boys and cant admit that to your parents and <b>CLEARLY</b> are very insecure in everything.

    what a sad person you are.<!-- Signature -->
     
  19. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Cantstopusnow34</i>
    <b>U and buzzbomer should band together and have sex u #%$gots anyone who supports hondas should be straped into one and pushed over a cliff, hondas r for pussys who cant afford real cars idiot </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->Umm if you havent noticed me and rustang both own f bodies and im pretty sure there real cars wait let me go look....... yep its pretty real nothing fake on it at all how about that and buz is got a civic hatchback what do you drive wait do you own your own car or did mommy and daddy buy it for you? once you have to buy your own car why dont you come back and try to talk trash and we will be sure to put you in your place
    <!-- Signature -->
     
  20. Quote:
    Guys this is a hatchback! yes a 2Ltr hatchback, Its not a drag car it was designed to be raced on a track thats why its in the British Touring Car Championship, In both class's and so far its winning the production class.
    Because of my job at a large import/export company I get to drive these cars daily and they live upto there title of fastest hatchback in the UK, But its not untill you take a bent that you realise how good this car handle's.
    Its a racing hatchback and its a good one.Testdrive one you'll be supprized!


    At last!! Someone who sees sense. ITS A £16000 hatchback. That is its a hot hatch, and is cheeper than anything with anything like its performance. Performance isn't too bad anyway 0-60 in 6.4 secs claimed by honda, proven to be 6.8 or better by Autocar. As for those who whine about the powerband, who cares - its got a close ratio 6 speed gearbox precisely because of that- so you can keep it in the band. Handling is quoted to be "even better than its performance" (bear in mind this is compared to other Hot Hatches e.g. Ibiza Cupra) and its got a better power to weight ratio than any 2 ton yank tank. As for those who whine about low down power - Its a 2 litre engine in a small car - plenty of torque even if you're not revving the arse off it. Those who whine about torque - so what HIGH RPM MEANS TORQUE DOESN'T MATTER AS MUCH (performance wise). If you dont know that then you dont know S**t about cars. Power output is directly related to acceleration while torque is not (provided everything else remains the same. Anyway power is calculated from (is directly proportional to)torque x RPM. Anyone who disagrees with that is digging a hole for themselves. Its basis Physics.
     
  21. Quote from HeavyC:

    First of all if you turbo charge or S/C an engine it does force more air into it but it doesn't force more fuel in. This keeps the fuel economy fairly good. I have a 4.3L turbo charged engine (15psi) and it gets 18mpg. Not to shabby?

    Where did you get that idea from? The stochiometric ratio must be maintained or the engine runs weak. Therefore more air=more fuel. Simple. When you boot a turbo car it will use significantly more fuel than its NA counterpart. However in normal driving off boost, there is only a slight loss in fuel efficiency due to the engine being lower compression (so it loses combustion efficiency). VTEC= Variable Timing Electronic Control. It does NOT just adjust the valve timing but also the valve lift. Changes in the valve timing are controlled by the ECU using a couple of pulleys on the cambelt I believe. The increase in lift at high revs is achieved by an increase in oil preassure - They use cams with 2 different profile lobes for each set of inlet/exhaust valves and a system similar to a hydraulic lifter meaning the lumpier cam profile only takes over when there is more oil preassure.

    The reason you want torque at high revs is simple. The higher the revs with the same torque, the more power.

    The VTEC design has the best idea for fuel efficiency. When youre not revving it its like a normal engine with normal fuel efficiency. It only gets worse when you rev the arse off it.
     
  22. Damn! You said more than a mouthful! I'm not going to argue with that buddy, you definetely know your shit! You should be placed to SuperCarGuru Status immediately! <IMG SRC="http://www.supercars.net/servlets/cMsg/html/emoticons/smile.gif"><!-- Signature -->
     
  23. the "lumpier" cam is not completely actuated by oil pressure, its more of a complex electro-mechanical system that also utilizes other systems of the engine. with that said, you can still have VTEC on a non-VTEC engine with simply a VTEC head. however, that may not be considered TRUE VTEC unless you have a VTEC oil pump, etc. <IMG SRC="http://www.supercars.net/servlets/cMsg/html/emoticons/smile.gif"><!-- Signature -->
     

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