Re: I hate Porsche for killing the M3 GTR

Discussion in '2001 BMW M3 GTR' started by sparetire, Aug 9, 2002.

  1. The fact is that BMW, within the Rules, made a kickass car. Porsche then complained and had the rules changed. Porsche could have done the same thing BMW did, and they did not instead they led a crusade and changed the rules. I love this car. I hope they can maybe build enough and sell enough to make it acceptable again, but I doubt it. There is hope to see this in the future though. And I think this looks much better than the Porsches. Its new. The Porsches are timeless styling, but I like this more.<!-- Signature -->
     
  2. Oh yeah one other thing. Porsche has done this in the past. A little car known as the Dauer 962 was "nothing more than a group c Porsche 962 in thin disguise." (Automobile) They do this too, and no one had the rules changed then. Same thing for the GT1 Lemans winner in 98. I love Porsches but they are bitching too much.<!-- Signature -->
     
  3. I agree Spare,the porshes have sooo much racing heritage,they should've engineered there way out rather than trying to eliminate the comp by crying and moaning,it would've been nice to see a street V8M3,that would be really tight car,it would kill anything in its class.
     
  4. THIS CAR IS FLAT OUT SEXY.
    I wish Porche would have just grown up and bulit a car that could compete with this beast. I am disapointed with porche, cuz now there aint gonna be a decent race between the two (porche, -n- B.M.W.) for quite sometime...
     
  5. Amerikon:

    If its strictly about displacement, not # of cylinders, then i have no problem with Ferrari's entry. Its 430 bhp V8 has a displacement of 3586cc. That's approximately the same size as the engine in the GT3R. I couldn't find the specs on the Callaway C12-R you speak of, but i found the specs on a normal C12, and its V8 is 382 cu in (6260cc), so the 427 you speak of has an engine of displacement greater than 7 litres. If there are no cylinder restrictions, only displacement restrictions, wouldn't this be one of them? Just out of curiosity, can this Corvette enter the LM GT, or must it enter the LM GTS? Another car entered in the LM GT is the Spyker C8 Double 12 with a 3999cc litre V8. And i've noticed that these 8 cylinder cars are pushing 4 litres. if this is the limit for displacement in the LM GT class, or close to it, then why isn't everyone in this class squeezing displacement and power out of their engines? i know that the rules are what they are, and the rules stand. but it just seems that, b/c restrictions fall upon displacement and not the # of cylinders, the rules are pushing companies to make the best possible engine out of the maximum displacement allowed. and it seems that the best engine configuration achieveable using the given displacement allowed in the GT class is an 8 cylinder engine, not 6 cylinders. now i'm not saying that Porsche should wine about that. in fact i think they should develop an engine that pushes the GT homogulation requirements right to the limits, whether its 8 cylinders or 6, whether its 4.0 litres or 3.6. but in the mean time it seems as though Porsche and other 6-cylinder, lower displacement models don't have a place to race anymore. In no way am i hoping that BMW would inhibit its own success just to conform to Porsche's racing heritage. it just seems like the larger 8-cylinder engines belong in a different class than the smaller 6-cylinder engines. but the ACO must have good reason not to i suppose. by the way, i did notice that Porsche is one of the few cars in the GT class still using a smaller 6-cylinder engine, but they've had quite the race heritage behind it. if Porsche has been using it that long, then there must have been many cars in the past with similar engines, and things have just changed over time according to subtle increases allowable displacement and other ACO/FIA specifications within the GT class. As far as i'm concerned, Porsche has no business winning anymore now that almost everyone else in the GT class has a bigger engine, and thus the capability to engineeer something more powerful.

    PSIIGTIII:

    I guess it all boils down to someone's opinion. Like i said above, the ACO/FIA must have good reason for keeping 8-cylinders w/ larger displacement and 6-cylinders w/ smaller displacement in the same GT class, instead of create a new one. As far as Porsche building an 8-cylinder, they are putting one in their new SUV, which comes in two flavors: a Turbo and an S. I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head, but the Turbo has a 4.5L 450 bhp V8 Biturbo engine, and the S has a 4.5L 340 bhp engine. With that technology already in their hands, Porsche has the ingenuity, if not the know how, to scale down the size of its Turbo V8 engine by 0.5L, remove the turbo, and still maintain close to 450 bhp with a naturally aspirated engine.

    3654ever:

    Sorry...i don't know much about the TVR Speed 12 and what happened as far as LeMans goes, but my name had no reference to a Datsun. Why?

    PS - sorry if it took me some time to get back to everyone...for some reason i don't get emails when anyone replies to threads i've selected at this site.
     
  6. thoses soft #$%#s at porsche<!-- Signature -->
     
  7. forcing Porsche to build a car to compete with this is asking them to change the basis upon which their race heritage sits. The six cylinder engine has been Porsche's way to the top for years now. Why change that? Why couldn't BMW go back to the drawing boards and create a more powerful I-6, or any kind of six cylinder for that matter? Instead they create this M3 GTR. Now granted it used to fit within the ACO regulations, at the time when it was legal to build a car with such specs, did you see anyone doing something as eccentric as this? Two more cylinders means many more engine manipulations, from bore and stroke size to overall bhp. If everyone else were off their rocker as much as BMW was when they created this beast of a car, then everone else would have a bellowing 8 cylinder power house competing for the top spot in this series. Sure the weight difference between the cars is very little (which is why i can't understand why the ACO wants BMW to add 100 lbs to their car), but an increase of two cylinders and .4 litres has resulted in 35 more bhp pulling only 22 more lbs than the 410 bhp GT3R. such a small difference in weight is negligible with cars carrying this much power. The M3 GTR belongs in a different class. If BMW isn't simply interested in winning the cup, but rather taking it from Porsche, then they should have come up wit ha 6 cylinder answer to the GT3R. What they shouldn't have done was build something totally different and disguise it in a skin that will allow it into the circuit...or even attempt to lure Porsche into a new 8 cylinder arena of competition, which they might try now that they can't compete in the series with the M3 GTR. in any case, BMW needs to do something useful with this car, b/c it is a work of art, despite my sounding like a Porsche defender. don't get me wrong, i love both automobile makers very much, but aside from the fact that the M3 GTR no longer meets the proper standards for this series, it isn't an even match anyways. People in the forums argue about how it isn't fair to compare a 10 cylinder to an 8 cylinder, or a 12 to a 10, or a front engine to a mid-engine, and so on and so forth. and that is very true no matter how well bhp, torque , weight, etc. match up. the same thing goes for the professional circuits.
     
  8. I get yur point and totaly agree w/ u. now i have seen the light, kinda. this is just a thought but why not classify series by cylinders
    ? like a Inline-6 series, V-6 series, a V-8 series. and i dont c y Porche wont expand a bit a go to the bigger V-8 just for the heck of it. allthough they maynot have the know how for V-8's if they can take the 8 and do what they have done to/with the 6 that would be awsome. and i guess it is kinda cheep to put a 8 up against a 6.
    if u can under stand this i would like some positive critisism.
     
  9. I seem to remember another kickass car being built for competition, then having the carpet yanked out from under its feet. Remember the TVR Speed 12?
    Also, Sunny129, is your name a reference to a Datsun?
     
  10. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Dont diss cars u can never have</i>
    <b>nothings gonna change man porsche r the best the have the best racers and sports cars </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    _______________________________________________________

    No Ferraris are besT sports cars allways been and allways gonna be :p<!-- Signature -->
     
  11. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from BugattiEB110SS</i>
    <b>How is it un-fair? It seems more un-fair to Porsche. The CSL had a 6 cylinder and it couldn't hang with the GT3-R. So BMW crawled back to munich and dumped an F1 derived V8 into it and then it far out-matched the 911 in performance. Porsche did nothing but follow the rules and complained when something didn't seem fair which it wasn't</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    I agree. Porsche doesn't do as much factory racing anymore, so I think they have a right to be sticklers. Besides it's usually Porsche with the advantage that others are whining about.
     
  12. stupid porsche theyre good for nuthin excpet burnin<!-- Signature -->
     
  13. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from WakkaWu</i>
    <b>stupid porsche theyre good for nuthin excpet burnin</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Agreed *handshake*-lol Well, not completly, this is my look upon Porsche, Boxster: Sucks, Boxster S: Is cool, 911 Carrera: makes nice a sound, but is too expensive for the performance you get, 911 Turbo: unlike its cousin, the 911, its great value for its price, but isn't a true supercar because it can't get to 200mph, GT3: just a very high reving 911, basically the same car with a body kit, GT2: Damn nice car, but performance is similar to 911 Turbo (but I heard that it has a completly differnet 'personalitly'), GT1: Dunno much about, unfair if I said anything good or bad about it.

    mmmmmm........BMW

    All their cars are the best except one of them, the ///M Roadster, a bit slow for its class.

    Really, I prefer BMW.

    And anyway, if Porsche can't create a car that can at least have a good race with this M3 GTR. They suck. Jeez, BMW's herritage lies in the in-line 6 <-----Mostly any way. Porsche is too afraid of change, fuggin wankers. Jeez, when is Porsche going to move on? I know, the flat 6 of the 911's are great, but, Porsche could start making Lambo beaters if it went into creating a V8 and stuffing it into a 911.
    But it would lack that sweet 6-cylinder sound.....shame.
    BMW lost it as well.....shame as well...well you peeps continue arguing and then we will all eventualy agree that...

    BMW IS THE BEST!!!!!
    PEOPLE AT PORSCHE ARE BLOODY WANKERS!!!!!!!!!! :p

    Jeez, I talk to much, don't I?
    <!-- Signature -->
     
  14. Well, they may only be around for one season, but look at it this way..

    It came, it saw, it kicked ass, and retired a winner...


    ////\/\att<!-- Signature -->
     
  15. I hate Porsche for killing the M3 GTR

    They were already everywhere - speckled about the tracks, blocking the much faster Prototype cars, and multiplying like rabbits. The 911 GT3R had had WAY too much time in the lime-light. Then along came the M3 GTR - a car that not only looked better, went faster, and cornered better, but followed the FIA rulebook to a "T" (don't argue this - they DID build the required amount of road-going GTRs). Porsche's drivers suddenly found themselves - GASP - losing! And to BMWs, at that! So they cried to the FIA and made them enforce strict rules that left the Porsches untouched, but disabled the M3 GTR so that it could never win (weight penalty or elimination from competition).

    Thus, no more fantastic M3 GTRs for a while. And you can all thank Porsche Sore-Loser Racing for that.<!-- Signature -->
     
  16. I know how you feel man. I'm a big lover of the M3 GTR myself. Its really f*cked up of Porsche to do that when they knew they were outclassed.
     
  17. nothings gonna change man porsche r the best the have the best racers and sports cars
     
  18. true, porsche didn't kill it(they complained with everyone else), but the A'Co did.<!-- Signature -->
     
  19. How is it un-fair? It seems more un-fair to Porsche. The CSL had a 6 cylinder and it couldn't hang with the GT3-R. So BMW crawled back to munich and dumped an F1 derived V8 into it and then it far out-matched the 911 in performance. Porsche did nothing but follow the rules and complained when something didn't seem fair which it wasn't
     
  20. A bland sedan body looks better then a curvacious Porsche?<!-- Signature -->
     
  21. The M3 was completely legit under the old rules. The rules stated that the M3 V8 was legal provided that a certain number were built within some given amount of time after the season it raced in. But that amount of time was shortened in the 2002 rules, enough so that BMW could not produce the required 1000 street versions. Also, the V8 was brought in b/c under the current restrictor rules the 6-Cylinder M3 was at a serious disadvantage to the Porsches. Since they needed a new engine anyway, it's only logical that they'd choose the best possible. BMW expended alot of resources to have the M3 GTR meet the homologation requirements, only to have the rules change at the last minute, forcing them out of competition. Regardless of who's side you're on, the ALMS season is going to be much less entertaining now that Porsche has a total monopoly on the GT class.
     
  22. BMW's gone. Waa. GET OVER IT. They will be back, and Porsche will be ready for them...
    *cue off key melodramatic music*<!-- Signature -->
     
  23. The main people to blame is ACO. Back in 2000, ACO were eager to let BMW compete with a factory team. So they allow BMW M3 GTR to race first, and meet the homologation standard later. But what they didn't anticipate was the car's tremandous advantage over the Porsche GT3-RSs, Porsche teams cried foul, since they did meet all the homologation requirement before hand, and base their engine on production one, BMW's purpose built race engine allows for much better performance. In an act to rectify the mistake, ACO made durastic "re-clearification" of the rule stating the homologation limit(100 road going version of the race car to be built and displayed in major autoshow, plus 1000 road car to be equipped with similar engine). BMW were caught off guard since I believe only 1 of the GTR road car were completed and displayed. No way can BMW meet the new rule. And the penalty for not meeting the limit was too much for the car to be competitive(see Saleen S7R, which is also in the same situation as BMW, and now with the extra weight and restrictor the car is just flat out not competitive). So BMW withdraw for 2002 season.

    BTW, the Inline 6 3.2 liter M3 engine actually has less restriction impose on them as they are less displacement than the 3.6 on the Porsche. Peak power output wise it is only 20 horses short on the 4 liter V8 of the GTR, but the main difference is that the 4 liter allows for much better flexibility of the engine and much better torque and power curve.<!-- Signature -->
     
  24. Sunny 129 wrote:
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    forcing Porsche to build a car to compete with this is asking them to change the basis upon which their race heritage sits. The six cylinder engine has been Porsche's way to the top for years now. Why change that? Why couldn't BMW go back to the drawing boards and create a more powerful I-6, or any kind of six cylinder for that matter?
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    This makes no sense. Why would BMW limit their car just because Porsche uses a 6-Cylinder. There are no cylinder restrictions, only displacement. Why should BMW inhibit the success of their racing program to preserve the basis of Porsche's race heritage? That's just absurd!


    Sunny 129 also wrote:
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    If everyone else were off their rocker as much as BMW was when they created this beast of a car, then everone else would have a bellowing 8 cylinder power house competing for the top spot in this series.
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    Oh you mean insane idiots like Ferarri, who's V8 360 Modena raced in GT class at Petit LeMans last year (3 are entered in LeMans), or maybe those psychos who entered a Callaway C12-R with a 427 V8, man... those guys should be commited.

    If you look at the GT class entrant list for LeMans 2002, Porsches are pretty much the only cars using 6-Cylinders.


    Sunny 129 also wrote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    don't get me wrong, i love both automobile makers very much, but aside from the fact that the M3 GTR no longer meets the proper standards for this series, it isn't an even match anyways. People in the forums argue about how it isn't fair to compare a 10 cylinder to an 8 cylinder, or a 12 to a 10, or a front engine to a mid-engine, and so on and so forth. and that is very true no matter how well bhp, torque , weight, etc. match up. the same thing goes for the professional circuits.
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    The only reason the M3 doesn't meet the standards is because BMW couldn't build enough of them. Since both the Porsche GT3R and the BMW M3 GTR are GT class race cars there's no good reason not to compare them.
     
  25. 635 as of rite now you are imortalised in my quotes

    im gonna hafta set the record straight,
    lets see where to begin..... oh yeah im truly sorry that BMW has far to much pride and respect for there followers and in them selves to go out and buy a mitsu-eatadick pipe to up they're ponies, they feel that there customers shouldn't pay ridiculous prices for tubing, they feel the need to actually engineer horsepower, so what they decided to drop a race spec engine in the GTR so what they couldnt build 1000 units on time i say **** Porsche not for bitching cuz they got beat i say **** Porsche because somewhere along the line they dropped the BALL, i mean shit they're makin a #$%#in SUV, shit they've lost there way, remember when you saw a Porsche for the first time ? and you wonderd wow thats nice #$%#in car you wanna kno why because for that brief instant b4 your neck snapped trying to catch a glimpse you were intrigued by a not so comoon shape, not so common performance ....... to be continued i gota jet out the door ill finished my thought at another time but kno this-->
    never fear the M3 was here and WILL be back to claim its spot at the motha #$%#in top<!-- Signature -->
     

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