Re: I hate Porsche for killing the M3 GTR

Discussion in '2001 BMW M3 GTR' started by sparetire, Aug 9, 2002.

  1. I have to agree with Mo on this one. I have yet to see people changind the rules when Porsche comes out with a car that destroys its competition and is barely legal under homogulation reqs. (962 cough cough) Yet the M3 is right there with the GT3 cars competing. Its stupid to argue that Porsche is getting a raw deal because BMW put more effort into the GTR. Please. Porsche has one of the best profit margins (10%!!) of any high end performance company. They could have built some beast to take this on. Just because the lat six has benn their choice for years does not mean no one can beat it. That is ludacris. Besides, they are changing their desighns significantly. The 911 turbo and GT2 are liquid cooled if I'm not mistaken, and that is a definite departure from the norm for Porsche historicly. They are taking a cheap way out. I would also like to say that the last ALMS race I saw, in Pheonix, the lone S4 beat out all the M3's and GT3s in its class, and would have won the race if not for a fuel stop, which allowed a Mustang to win. So its not like Porsche is the race god or something. They got beat by a 2.7 litre biturbo Audi kicking about 440 HP. That car is not banned and it is AWD. Why ban this?<!-- Signature -->
  2. To Get it out in the open:

    These are the basic rules for LeMans and American LeMans GT Class

    The GT class is comprised of production-based, two-wheel drive open or closed cockpit cars. Limited to 100 litre fuel tanks, six forward gears and 14 inch wheels.

    Carbon fiber brake discs are NOT permitted.

    Wings and additional approved aerodynamic devices may be added to the body. The cars, except in specific cases, may weigh no less than 1100 kilograms. Cars are allowed normally aspirated engines up to 8.0 litres or, utilizing turbocharging, up to 4.0 litres.

    Includes cars such as the BMW M3, Callaway C-12R, Chevrolet Corvette C5-R, and Porsche 911 GT3-RS.

    The number of cylinders is really insignificant. There's nothing stopping Porsche from making a 4.0L Flat6, if they're so concerned about their racing heritage. There's nothing stopping them from making an 8.0L Flat6 (other than reason of course). It's just that Porsche's engine in the current 911, 911T, GT2 etc, is the 3.6L F6. BMW used the 3.2L I6 in the current M3 until it became obvious that the engine was ineffective. Unless the cars are designed around the series they tend to just use whatever engine they have available. Porsche needs to step up and build new engines (not resort to rules changes) if they want to remain competitive.
    The C12-R specs you can get right here at
  3. Everyone is forgetting stuff like this happens in all racing series. Someone finds a way to bend (not break) the rules, and someone else complains about it not being in the spirit of the rules or whatever their complaint is. It's happened in various classes at LeMans, CART, F1, etc, etc, etc. Porsche has been the victim of rule changes designed to make their cars uncompetitive (like Porsche did to BMW) many times as well. For example, Porsche had developed an engine for the CART series some years back and when it blew away the competition (mostly the Offenhauser engines, I don't know if I spelled that right) while staying within the rules, everyone cried foul and the turbo boost pressure was restricted so far on the Porsche engine, they had to pull out of the series. I also read somewhere that Porsche was developing a new F1 engine when F1 engines were still turbocharged, and after witnessing performance tests, one of the big teams cried foul and Porsche was left with no time to redevelop the engine. Then there's the Porsche 917 that was banned in it's various forms in various racing series. The point is these political rules changes happen to everyone. I still don't think Porsche should have tried to change the rules though, they should have just developed a 4.0 liter flat-6.
  4. Amerikon:

    1) exactly how different are the specs between the GT class and the GTS class?
    2) did BMW create the M3 GTR before putting into production a road going version?
    3) why are Porsches entered in the GT class mostly GT3R's, and not GT2's, or homogulations thereof? i mean the GT2 engine puts out reasonably more bhp, and it fits well within the GT class specification of 4.0L utilizing a turbocharger.
  5. you know the GT class is not going to be much fun.
    I cant beleive they would do that. To bad that now
    Porsche will have control over the track this year
  6. 1) exactly how different are the specs between the GT class and the GTS class?

    The engine sizes and weights are the same. GTS are allowed carbon fiber brake discs. I'm not 100% sure about this but I think there are differences in the air restrictors that are used, GTS obviously having less restriction. There might be some other stuff as well.

    2) did BMW create the M3 GTR before putting into production a road going version?

    No. But according to the rules, they didn't have to. All they had to do was build a certain number of road versions within a certain amount of time.

    3) why are Porsches entered in the GT class mostly GT3R's, and not GT2's, or homogulations thereof? i mean the GT2 engine puts out reasonably more bhp, and it fits well within the GT class specification of 4.0L utilizing a turbocharger.

    I'm not really sure, but if I had to guess, I'd say that the GT3R is the Porsche factory supported race car. If you wanted to race a GT2, you'd have to go through alot of crap to get it race-ready (including the $200,000 for a GT2), whereas you can probably buy a GT3R with little difficulty and be ready to race in a much shorter amount of time.
  7. i would assume a GT2 in the LM series would make a much closer race between Porsche and BMW. The GT2 has 12 more bhp, but it also weighs roughly 200lbs more than the M3 GTR. of course i'm sure that weight could be reduced somewhat if Porsche ever did decide to enter it in LM. i was just thinking that instead of starting from scratch and building something completely new to compete with the M3 GTR, why not use something they already have (i.e. the GT2)? Porsche must be able to homgulate it so that it fits into the GT specifications. Anyways i was looking at the specs on the M3 GTR Strassenversion, which is the road going version of the M3 GTR that BMW would be putting into production (i don't know if they have yet or not), and the price is labeled at $229,000 for now. That's an even greater production cost than the $179,900 GT2. i mean if this thought just occured to me, then i'm sure the idea dawned on Porsche quite some time ago, and the must have a good reason for not using the GT2 in LeMans. i guess its all very interesting to say the least...
  8. Porsche already has an own race series in Europe called the Porsche Cup Challenge. Maybe they want a race class also in the US where only Porsches are allowed to compete?
    If I was in Porsches place, and somebody brought a car much better than mine, I would put a lot into research and development to make my own car competitive again. No matter if they "followed the rules" or not: forcing a car out of competition only because it is better makes me throw up. Porsche should know it better than me: you canŽt race with the same car for years and expect them to win forever (IŽm just talking about 911, not about GT1, GT2 or GT3). What if BMW comes back next year and still kicks PorscheŽs ass? They must do something and not hide behind rules. The only thing theyŽve won is time.
  9. Kinda true. What people do not realize is that this car also has handling to put the normal M3 or the GT3 to shame. What they learned with this will be found in the M3 one way or another. The M is going to get stronger.<!-- Signature -->
  10. honestly if porsche put the gt2 in against the m3 i think it will blow it to shits, i think it can survive pretty darned good if they didnt modify it, which ofcoarse they will, and completely knock off all the compitition, the gt2 is a mean ass machine, it makes the gt3r look bad, i think they dont want to put it in because their wont be much compitetion and people will be crying.<!-- Signature -->
  11. Throw in the GT2. Turbo the M3. There are credibe rumors of a TT M3 in the works, with a 3.6 litre I6. I want to see that. That means big trouble for the Mustangs and Vettes, and my S4. I love how well that car does, looking like a Stock S4 with a paintjob. They are not even allowed a spoiler because of the quattro.<!-- Signature -->
  12. i luv bmw m3 and i cant stand seeing anyone getting even 1 inch ahead of em so its really great they got that power and 0-60 in but #$%#ing porsche if u cant handle it, make a better car!
  13. F*uck ACO, I'll never go to see lemans again, they are really f*ucker.
  14. Well, that's sport. It's not the first time a manufacturer (and its legion of fans) has been screwed over. Agreed though, Porsche have a reputation for creating world-beating cars where nobody thought possible, so it's hard to see why they didn't rise to the challenge posed by the M3 GTR. Could Porsche be outgunned?? We can only hope.<!-- Signature -->
  16. thats bull, man. they racing world is twisted like a stage of a rally course. i agree, they should've developed a 4L flat6. all BMW did was bend the rules, bro, not break it.....
  17. Re:

    Both cars are awesome
  18. BMW could have solved the problem by producing a homolgomation special V8 M3. Hell, call it the CSL. I bet it'd sell no problem.
  19. Two terrible shames:

    1. One of road-racing's greatest stock-based GT cars ever is gone from the track, probably never to return again.

    2. We will never see the fantastic battle that would have erupted between Porsche and BMW on the track had Porsche engineered a car to compete with the M3 GTR.

  20. Hey Sunny129. Your message is a bit long and boring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  21. what happens to all of these classic touring cars?
    i wonder where they all end up?

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