Re: I hate this car.

Discussion in '2000 Hennessey Viper Venom 800TT' started by hennesseyms, Aug 9, 2002.

  1. What's your favorite BMW?<!-- Signature -->
     
  2. I agree with LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4. He has a point about the Viper, how Viper fans always brag about this huge 8-liter gas-guzzling V-10. The Viper isn't really ugly, but it hasn't gotten a makeover until now, after 10 years. Another thing is that this car is overpriced. You want a REAL twin turbo supercar that can actually handle and do well on the track, and has attractive styling, and 800 horsepower? AB-Flug S900 Supra. It has twin turbos, 800 horsepower, better handling, more attractive styling, and more drivable than a Viper. Still think its too slow for you? You've only spent $100,000 for all of that, which is a brand new Supra, and the $50,000 AB-Flug conversion, while the 800TT conversion costs a burdening $80,000, which brings the Hennessey Viper 800TT's total to $160,000. Concentrate, and find out what you're going to do with that leftover $60,000, if you don't think the AB-Flug is enough. Heck, go buy the Veilside Supra Limited, whose body kit alone costs $15,000, mainly shipping and handling (to and from Japan), and has over 1000 hp, and even after that, i'm positive you'll still have less than $160,000


    uhh dude, you can buy a viper for 55k without any trouble. then you can buy the 55k package, not 80k. thats a total of 110k. also, this car has no engine work. that supra has heavy engine work and is nearly maxed out. this car is runnin 12psi boost. i hear if you up the boost to bout 25 you get bout 1200 hp, and thats without a mod! better handleing id have to see on that car.


    my fav beemer is a z8, damn they rule.



    also, about the lemans way back there, the viper won the american lemans all 4 times it competed. about track times, dont post the nuremburg, its the hitty eurospec viper, less hp, no abs, worse in every way. this car would prob set the track record or steet legal cars if it were to try.


    im still waitin for a car that would "whup it"<!-- Signature -->
     
  3. #78 hennesseyms, Aug 9, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
  4. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from phanofmuzik2</i>
    <b>uhh dude, you can buy a viper for 55k without any trouble. then you can buy the 55k package, not 80k. thats a total of 110k. also, this car has no engine work. that supra has heavy engine work and is nearly maxed out. this car is runnin 12psi boost. i hear if you up the boost to bout 25 you get bout 1200 hp, and thats without a mod! better handleing id have to see on that car.


    my fav beemer is a z8, damn they rule.



    also, about the lemans way back there, the viper won the american lemans all 4 times it competed. about track times, dont post the nuremburg, its the hitty eurospec viper, less hp, no abs, worse in every way. this car would prob set the track record or steet legal cars if it were to try.


    im still waitin for a car that would "whup it"</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    I doubt that they do NO engine work over at Hennessey; that would just be irresponsible. I don't think they do enough work, judging by the rumored reliability of their cars, but you can't run even 12psi on the engine without changing something. With the additional 12psi boost, you're almost doubling the pressure of the fuel-air mixture in the cylinders, so the idea of bringing the boost up to 25psi without replacing so much as a piston ring makes my skin crawl. You'd be asking to send your car to the junkyard. Again, Hennessey doesn't put any specifics on his page - partly because of his own business interests and partly because "product content subject to change without notice" - so it's hard to tell exactly what he does.

    If you want to look at the extreme, look at all the stuff that has to be done to the hill climbers' engine blocks to get them to run their boost pressures (~35psi!). Any car with Pike's Peak in it will do, and this site has the 9-3 Viggen Pike's Peak and the Escudo Pike's Peak. Those engines take one hell of a beating, and they are built to take it. Still, they don't last much more than a few runs.<!-- Signature -->
     
  5. The M Coupe had the stiffest body structure of any production BMW. Until the E46 was released.
     
  6. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Guibo</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>Thanks, guys. I'm surprised no one defended the Viper's suspension, a lot of people think the unequal a-arm suspension system is great because of its strength. Guibo?</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Whatever gets the job done.

    Who needs multi-link? The Viper was supposed to kill the Corvette. It was the anti-Corvette. The Viper team made it clear that pretty much whatever the Corvette had and stood for, the Viper would outdo and stand against. I think I recall Chrysler's then-CEO Bob Lutz saying the Corvette had strayed too far from its sporting roots, that it was too much of a boulevardier. Makes you wonder what he's up to, now that he's at GM...
    Unequal-length A arm suspension may not be cutting edge, but it's a step up from live axle and semi-trailing arm. The first-gen RX-7 had a live axle. The current BMW Z3 Coupe (and M Roadster and M Coupes) has semi-trailing arm. I've driven both and can say those cars handle <i>very</i> well.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    I know it's just my personal opinion here, but suspension makes a huge difference to me. I think live axle is a joke these days, but it's great for a nostalgic drive. The RX-7 and the Z-series were both critisized for having unsophisticated handling. They handle well, I think, because of a good weight distribution, both front-rear and top-bottom: BMW and Mazda are known for that. I just think the modern layouts give the knowledgable driver more options and a wider range of ride qualities.

    I can't wait to see what Chevvy comes up with for the C6, it should be amazing. They've done a wonderful job with the '02 Z06, so my expectations are high.<!-- Signature -->
     
  7. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from deuginthesky</i>
    <b>I was talking about 3 series generally.

    That includes , Coupe , Z3 and Z3M</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    The Z's and Coupes have different rear suspensions, due to packaging issues. Not the same as the regular 3 Series (with the exception of the Ti Compact which also has semi-trailing arm).
     
  8. I'm pretty sure you're mistaken. The Z3, Z3 Coupe, M Roadster, and M Coupe all have semi-trailing arms, regardless of where they are sold. They are built in South Carolina.

    All of the E36 cars have multi-link, with the exception of the Ti Compact.
     
  9. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>I know it's just my personal opinion here, but suspension makes a huge difference to me. I think live axle is a joke these days, but it's great for a nostalgic drive. The RX-7 and the Z-series were both critisized for having unsophisticated handling.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Well, having owned both a 1st and 2nd generation RX-7, I can say the older RX-7 gives up little if anything in the way of handling to its newer version. The later one may be more comfortable over expansion joints and mid-corner bumps, but in very rigorous driving through the same twisties, the old one didn’t feel any worse. If anything, I found that the older one kept unwanted body motions in check slightly better. Both were stock. The third iteration, however, is a different matter.
    I’ve never read a review criticizing the Coupes for their handling. Having personally driven the Z3 Coupe (we have one in the family), I can attest to its handling prowess. Despite modest tires and a fairly soft setup, control and response is excellent at a 9/10ths pace. I’ve not dared venture above that, as it isn’t my car (the person who does was seated next to me.)
    Automobile Magazine recently tested the M Roadster, M Coupe, M5, and M3 head to head. They concluded the M Coupe was the better driver’s car. Indeed, the lap times at Hockenheim and Nurburgring help to support this. The newer (by at least 2 years) E46 M3 with 22 more horses, a 6-speed tranny, trick electronically-controlled limited slip M Differential, and most importantly (for our purposes) the multi-link rear suspension. The M3 is more aerodynamic than the Coupe (.32 Cd vs .37) and produces less lift. It beats the Coupe with the old 321 ps Euro-spec S52 engine by 2.7 seconds in the 0-200 kmh sprint, a pretty large margin. When both cars’ brakes are warm, the M3 stops sooner. Yet, at Nurburgring, both cars return the same lap time. At Hockenheim, the results are similar, with the M Coupe actually ahead by .5 second.

     
  10. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Guibo</i>
    <b>I'm pretty sure you're mistaken. The Z3, Z3 Coupe, M Roadster, and M Coupe all have semi-trailing arms, regardless of where they are sold. They are built in South Carolina.

    All of the E36 cars have multi-link, with the exception of the Ti Compact.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    All EUROPEAN BMW "3 series" cars have the same suspensions sytems .The 1st generation of Compact was technologically late on this point , BMW customers didn't like it .So BMW gave the new Compact the same suspension system as ALL "3 series" BMWs , at least in Europe.
     
  11. Its a rally car dunbass.
     
  12. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from deuginthesky</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Guibo</i>
    <b>I'm pretty sure you're mistaken. The Z3, Z3 Coupe, M Roadster, and M Coupe all have semi-trailing arms, regardless of where they are sold. They are built in South Carolina.

    All of the E36 cars have multi-link, with the exception of the Ti Compact.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    All EUROPEAN BMW "3 series" cars have the same suspensions sytems .The 1st generation of Compact was technologically late on this point , BMW customers didn't like it .So BMW gave the new Compact the same suspension system as ALL "3 series" BMWs , at least in Europe.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Well, crap. If you're going that route, then all AMERICAN "3 Series" cars have the same suspension systems. The E46 platform is what you're talking about. The M Roadster, M Coupe, Z3, and Z3 Coupe are based on the <i>E36</i> platform. They are not based on the E46 platform, either in US or American-spec.

    In the E36 platform, the Ti Compact used semi-trailing arms. Every single one of them, either in US spec or Euro spec. I defy you to find evidence to the contrary, excluding aftermarket conversions.
     
  13. Guibo, I think that, with the E46 M3 vs. M Coupe lap times thing, you can attribute the similar results to the M Coupe's low center of mass, light weight, and rigid chassis. The M Coupe is one of my favorite cars, especially with the new 3.2I6 in it, and I agree with them that it is the best driver's car. And who could turn down a car that looks like a penis? This may sound argumentative, but there a lot more factors separating the M3 from the M Coupe than just the suspension. It's hard to make a fairly roomy 5-seater handle as well as a compact coupe. I read once somewhere (after reading that, you must be ready to be impressed by my reliable statistics) that the M Coupe's chassis has a rigidity of 38,000lbs per degree of rotation. That's huge! A good sedan is about 25,000 and a seam-welded rally car is about 50,000. The M3 also has about 300lbs on its Coupe counterpart.<!-- Signature -->
     
  14. Something I picked up elsewhere.

    "The dynamic stiffness (measured in Hertz) for the cars (listed on page 50, BIMMER magazine, 12/98)...higher is better, by the way.

    E46 328i 29.8 Hz
    M Coupe 29.2 Hz
    E36 coupe 29.2 Hz
    E39 528i 29.0 Hz
    M roadster 18.4 Hz
    E36 conv 16.6 Hz"



    BTW, the E36 M3 w/321 ps does the 'Ring in 8:35. Three seconds slower than the trailing-armed M Roadster with the identical engine.
     
  15. I was just looking over the technical data table from R&T's Best All-Around Sports Car issue, July '98.

    Here are the rear suspension specifications for the cars tested.

    Acura NSX: upper & lower A-arms, compliance pivots, coil springs, tube shocks, anti-roll bar

    M Roadster: semi-trailing arms, coil springs, tube shocks, anti-rollbar [same as the E30 and even the 2002(!)]

    C5 Corvette: upper & lower A-arms, toe links, transverse composite monoleaf spring [hehe], tube shocks, anti-roll bar

    Viper GTS: upper & lower A-arms, toe links, coil springs, tube shocks, anti-roll bar

    F355 F1: upper & lower A-arms, coil springs, elect. adj. tube shocks, anti-roll bar

    996: 5-link, coil springs, tube shocks, anti-roll bar


    So, it seems the Viper's rear suspension isn't horrifically outdated compared to the competition. Indeed, the 360 Modena's rear suspension doesn't seem that much more advanced (on paper, anyway). From R&T, 8/99:
    "The F355's upper and lower A-arm suspension configuration remains unchanged on the 360. Additional aluminum was employed at the hub carriers, including the suspension links and the rear anti-roll bar. And also at the rear is a new link that allows rapid adjustment of toe-in."
     
  16. And here's the R&T comparison between the current 315-hp M Roadster and the 349-hp SLK32 AMG.

    SLK32 AMG: multi-link, coil springs, tube shocks, anti-roll bar

    M Roadster: same as above

    And onto the scoring, below. Interesting to note they rated the Bimmer higher in handling, without any apparent penalty in ride quality. Seems to indicate that what you have is no more important than what you do with it.
     
  17. Definately, BMW is a better under 200k SPORTS CAR.<!-- Signature -->
     
  18. #93 deuginthesky, Aug 9, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Guibo</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from deuginthesky</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Guibo</i>
    <b>I'm pretty sure you're mistaken. The Z3, Z3 Coupe, M Roadster, and M Coupe all have semi-trailing arms, regardless of where they are sold. They are built in South Carolina.

    All of the E36 cars have multi-link, with the exception of the Ti Compact.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    All EUROPEAN BMW "3 series" cars have the same suspensions sytems .The 1st generation of Compact was technologically late on this point , BMW customers didn't like it .So BMW gave the new Compact the same suspension system as ALL "3 series" BMWs , at least in Europe.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Well, crap. If you're going that route, then all AMERICAN "3 Series" cars have the same suspension systems. The E46 platform is what you're talking about. The M Roadster, M Coupe, Z3, and Z3 Coupe are based on the <i>E36</i> platform. They are not based on the E46 platform, either in US or American-spec.

    In the E36 platform, the Ti Compact used semi-trailing arms. Every single one of them, either in US spec or Euro spec. I defy you to find evidence to the contrary, excluding aftermarket conversions.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    I do have the evidence from a paper magazine , a special edition of the French magazine l'Auto-Journal , which once a year deals with all the cars made by the main car makers in the world.
    The chassis of the NEW COMPACT , yes the Compact has changed in Europe , is the E46.
    I just don't care if the specifications are different in the US , I'm talking about EURO 3 SERIES VERSIONS , clear ??

    the crap has a little something to shut your mouth , go on this URL http://cerclem.free.fr/m3.htm and DO SHUT UP WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW.
     
  19. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Guibo</i>
    <b>Something I picked up elsewhere.

    "The dynamic stiffness (measured in Hertz) for the cars (listed on page 50, BIMMER magazine, 12/98)...higher is better, by the way.

    E46 328i 29.8 Hz
    M Coupe 29.2 Hz
    E36 coupe 29.2 Hz
    E39 528i 29.0 Hz
    M roadster 18.4 Hz
    E36 conv 16.6 Hz"



    BTW, the E36 M3 w/321 ps does the 'Ring in 8:35. Three seconds slower than the trailing-armed M Roadster with the identical engine.
    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Wow. Very impresive, as usual. Like I said, it is very difficult to make a fairly roomy 5-seater as stiff as a compact coupe. BMW, however, seems to have done just that. I didn't realize that they had stiffened the E46 chassis that much as compared to the E36. I wonder: is it mostly engineering/design or material changes that allow for that improvement? Either way, the Z5 (next-gen M Coupe, so far as I know) should benefit from those developments.

    Not to be a whiner, but I'm not a big fan of the dynamic rigidity specs. Even when you're talking about the slalom, which is all about weight transfer handling, the forces acting on the chassis are constant and strong, not huge pulses of torsional force. It is true that the stiffer the chassis the faster it will resonate, but that's an indirect measurement. When you have the static rigidity specs, it's not only a direct measurement, but it more accurately represents a real-world situation. Whatever, they're both decent measurements of how stiff the chassis is.

    lol...leaf springs on the 'Vette. Someone from the Tahoe team must've wandered into the wrong meeting. Seriously, though, the suspension on the Corvette is more complicated than that.

    I believe that Ferrari uses a system similar to Mercedes' ABC, where hydrolic servos adjust the stiffness and length of the shocks during driving. Not sure on that, though.<!-- Signature -->
     
  20. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Guibo</i>
    <b>And here's the R&T comparison between the current 315-hp M Roadster and the 349-hp SLK32 AMG.

    SLK32 AMG: multi-link, coil springs, tube shocks, anti-roll bar

    M Roadster: same as above

    And onto the scoring, below. Interesting to note they rated the Bimmer higher in handling, without any apparent penalty in ride quality. Seems to indicate that what you have is no more important than what you do with it.
    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    What self-respecting car enthusiast is going to subjectively rate a Benz over a Bimmer in handling? That would be blasphemy! Your point is well taken ("Seems to indicate that what you have is no more important than what you do with") but that's a similar thing to the "no replacement for displacement" argument. If you have a larger engine, you can get more power in the end, no matter how well-made the smaller engine is. If you have a good suspension, you can make the car handle better in then end, everything else being equal. It's about potential, and if suspension is the limiting factor in your handling prowess, there's no excuse for having an unsophisticated system.
    <!-- Signature -->
     
  21. deuginthesky:
    Read my original reference to the Ti Compact. I was talking about the E36 platform, upon which the Z3, Z3 Coupe, M Roadster, and M Coupe were based. At NO POINT in my original reference did I say anything about the E46. Or indeed even the 3 Series. You brought it up. And failed to note that BMW uses DSC.
     
  22. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>It's about potential, and if suspension is the limiting factor in your handling prowess, there's no excuse for having an unsophisticated system.
    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Well, very few cars have outright handling in mind as a priority. They're all usually compromised in at least more than one area (power, handling, space, economy, etc.). BMW's excuse is that the compact dimensions called for in the Z3 Roadster and the Ti required the use of simpler suspension design. The multi-link setup would have worked, but would have taken up too much space (both of these cars have pretty tight trunks as it is, though the Ti's rear seats fold down to allow for quite a bit of extra cargo room; the later M Roadster and M Coupes used dual exhausts, so the space was greatly needed for that application).
    These cars (the original Z3 Roadster and Ti) were underpowered, if anything, both using the same 4-cylinder engine; their chassis delivered on their end of the performance equation. The bottom-rung 318ti was even named the 2nd Best Handling Car for Under $30K by C&D, narrowly losing to the Prelude SH and still beating the Miata.
    Speaking of price, BMW's objective with the Ti was to introduce a car for around $20K. The use of the existing semi-trailing arms from the E30 helped them to reach this goal. At around $19,990, this was the cheapest BMW in a long time.
     
  23. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Guibo</i>
    <b>Well, very few cars have outright handling in mind as a priority. They're all usually compromised in at least more than one area (power, handling, space, economy, etc.).
    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    True, but M and AMG are about performance, of which handling is an integral (in my mind) part. I think the Prelude SH is a beautiful car, even though it's as expensive as a Mustang Cobra with about half the speed, because it handles so well, especially for a FWD car. I'd like to think that I'm a Lotus-minded car lover, so outright handling is what I go for. The Z3 and the Ti are fine cars, though I'm not so fond of 4cyl BMWs, but they're not meant to be stellar performers. The Viper is an all-out performance car which claims to make few compromises. As I see it, they made a big compromise chosing a less versatile suspension system.

    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Guibo</i>
    <b>Speaking of price, BMW's objective with the Ti was to introduce a car for around $20K. The use of the existing semi-trailing arms from the E30 helped them to reach this goal. At around $19,990, this was the cheapest BMW in a long time.
    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    The Ti was the cheapest BMW ever sold in America, I believe. I don't think it ever really belonged here, though. It's a great car, but it's not what Americans have grown to expect from the Bavarian team. It was far to European to ever survive across the pond. Underpowered as it was, they still did a great job living up to the "Ultimate Driving Machine" slogan.

    I rode in a Ti with a supercharged E36 M3 engine conversion. I met the guy at a local ice cream shop, of all places, and we got talking about racing. Beautiful custom roll cage, totally stripped interior. Two Sparco racing seats. He had a long rear axle with 255 Pzero Rossos on it. Wide, muscular fenders....mmmmmm. Fast as anything.<!-- Signature -->
     
  24. OK, now you're talking! One of my dream street sleepers has got to be a Ti with a Motorsport engine. Kinda like the one below (but without the stickers). This M3 powered (and turbocharged) hatchback ran in the One Lap of America racing series a few years back. Depending on various sources, it was rumored to have been making 400-430 hp! Not only did it go the distance, it beat the Superperformance Cobra and the Renntech SL600 to finish 3rd overall.

    [Just a correction to something I had said earlier. The S2000 that took over for the Skyline GTR in last year's One Lap didn't make it to the end either. Its engine blew up.]
     
  25. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Guibo</i>
    <b>OK, now you're talking! One of my dream street sleepers has got to be a Ti with a Motorsport engine. Kinda like the one below (but without the stickers). This M3 powered (and turbocharged) hatchback ran in the One Lap of America racing series a few years back. Depending on various sources, it was rumored to have been making 400-430 hp! Not only did it go the distance, it beat the Superperformance Cobra and the Renntech SL600 to finish 3rd overall.

    [Just a correction to something I had said earlier. The S2000 that took over for the Skyline GTR in last year's One Lap didn't make it to the end either. Its engine blew up.]</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    This was definitely a sleeper. If you didn't notice the roll cage (which was semi-integrated) or the fenders on the side, it was just your everyday blue Bimmer hatchback. No stickers, no ridiculus wing, no useless bar of rally lights, nor fancy taillights. The Supercharger boosted the power of the engine to 400hp. Torque down low was insane; he started it in sixth (he had the tranny conversion, of course) without a hitch.

    I'm surprised that the RENNtech car finished when an S2000 and a Skyline retired due to engine failure. That's another company that's known for showing up to events (races, magazine tests, auto shows...)with everything in order and then leaving in disgrace dragging behind them a fancy Mercedes with a block of melted steel in the front. Who tuned the S2000? Was it a person, a team, or a company like Mugen?

    Is any part of the Lap of America done on public roads anymore?<!-- Signature -->
     

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