Re: No Mclaren road car has gone 231mph or 240 mph.

Discussion in '1994 McLaren F1' started by Scotti Ducati, Aug 10, 2002.

  1. No Mclaren road car has gone 231mph or 240 mph.

    The car that reached 231 mph at the Fiat owned Nardo test track in Italy and the car that did 240.1 mph at the VW test track in Erha Lessien in Germany was NOT a production Mclaren F1 road car it was the XP5 , experimental prototype. suposedly its the same as a production F1 but the performance numbers don't match up.
    Autocar & Motor fully road tested the XP5 and its quotes the top speed as 221 mph ( redline limited ).
    Road & Track January 1995 they had thier fourth annual worlds fastest cars issue . R & T invited the following Bugatti EB 110 S ,Jaguar XJ220, Lamborghini Diablo SE, Mclaren F1 and Ruf Porsche BTR.
    heres a quote. " Lamborghini was not interested because a normal Diablo had reached just over 200 mph at our previous meeting . and after long discussions, Mclaren did not send a car. this requires some comments. Last June, when i ( Paul Frere ) had dinner with Gordon Murray, Mclarens technical boss , and Jonathan Palmer, The Formula 1 driver of the eighties and now development test driver and marketing director for the Mclaren road car, I told them the tentive dates for R & T's top-speed tests were September 24-25, 1994 a date later confimed that could not be changed as it had bee VW's choice.
    On the telephone Jonathan Palmers's secretary told me that Johathan would not be availble that weekend. I replied that surely someone else could bring the car to Germany and confirmed the date.
    When i called with final details, I was Shocked to hear Mclaren would not send the car only because Johnathan was authorized to drive for such tests. I argued that the cars would be in fairly good hands, Those of Phil Hill and myself, both former Formula 1 drivers and Le Mans winners and Phil a World Champion to boot ! and both of us are still in almost daily contact with very fast cars. But Mclaren remained steadfast and did not participate. "
    to my kwonlege no customer Mclaren F1 road car was ever tested independantly until Road & Track did a full road test with the exception of a top speed test in its December 1997 issue and its performance numbers were not as fast as the Autocar & Motor numbers for the XP5, here is the numbers side by side.

    0-30 - F1 1.7 - XP5 - 1.8
    0-40 - F1 2.3 - XP5 - 2.3
    0-50 - F1 2.9 - XP5 - 2.7
    0-60 - F1 3.4 - XP5 - 3.2
    0-70 - F1 4.5 - XP5 - 3.9
    0-80 - F1 5.3 - XP5 - 4.5
    0-90 - F1 6.1 - XP5 - 5.6
    0-100 -F1 7.7 - XP5 - 6.3
    0-110 -F1 8.8 - XP5 - 7.2
    1-120 -F1 10.5- XP5 - 9.2

    1/4 mile F1 [email protected] - XP5 - [email protected] mph.

    now the numbers are almost the same until 50 mph when the XP5 gets noticibly faster and the 1/4 mile trap speed there is a big differance. the XP5 is a half second faster in the E/T and 13 mph faster in the trap speed thats a huge difference.

    now a the same customer Mclaren F1 road car was FINALLY road tested for top speed by Road & Track in thier R & T road tests issue 1999.
    the Mclaren F1 was driven by the Great Mario Andretti to a top speed of 217.7 mph at the 7.712-mile highspeed oval in Fort Stockton, Texas.
    the condtions were ideal for top speed tests and Mario took advantage of the cool morning air. here is a quote after Mario tested the F1.

    " Overall , a very impressive car. But i was really suprised at how areodynamically unstable it was. Absolutely unstable. I was taking coners at about 200 mph, but probably could have taken then quite a bit quicker if the back end hadn't wanted to keep hagning itself out.
    This really caught me by suprise. I never thought it was going to move around the way it did. Also, the speedometer was really optimstic, indicating that i had hit 240 mph, when i was really only going 217. Nevertheless, it's the only car that i actually had to use the brakes before gooing into the coners to feel safe. That was a very scary 217."

    Now you cant go by speedometers because thier not accurate, Car and Driver tested the Viper GTS ,Acura NSX and the Porsche 996 twin turbo in its July 1997 issue. and brought this issue up. the NSX indicated top speed was 174 mph on the speedometer and it was measured at 170.03 mph the GTS was actually faster then its speed indicated of 184 when it was really doing 188.70 mph, and the Porsche TT was really optimistic indicating it was doing 200 mph when its true speed was only 181.17 mph now thats a difference of 19 mph.
    Ferrari claimed its F50 could do 202 mph , Car and Drive asked Ferrari North America if they could measure the F50s speed thier response was " No , theres is no press car. " fair enough , not many car companys hand out half-million dollar machines to writers who will thrash them on the track. Car and Driver asked owners to let them test thier cars and 4 owners agreed then one by one backed out , saying they where pressured by FNA not to lend thier cars out to Car and Driver. Finally C & D got at the only F50 that was owned out right at the time F50s owners had to lease the F50 from Ferrari for 2 years before they became a outright owner.
    Andy Evans loaned is car which was owned outright and in Car and Driver January 1997 the F50 reached a top speed of " ONLY " 194 mph with Andy driving and that was 14o rpms into the reline. now this is NOT the same as the factory claimed 202 mph and it was suposed to do a 1.2 G on the skidpad and it only did 0.95 G, in fact NO road going Ferrari has ever did 200 mph and that should change with the F60.
    The Best the F40 went was 197 mph ( R & T 91 ) and the 550 didn't do the factory claimed 199 mph Motor Trend ( July 99 ) tested it to 194 mph the same as a F50 which has more horsepower and weighs less.
    NO Mclaren road car has ever done 231 mph or 240 mph , does this take anything away from the car? NO its still a great car and until someone else tests a F1 road car the best it has done was 217.7 mph.
     
  2. Maybe Mario was just showing his bias/allegiance to Ferrari by badmouthing the F1.<!-- Signature -->
     
  3. Just because Road and Track didn't produce the same numbers, doesn't mean the F1 can't do them. Unfortunately, not very many magazines have tested one.



    Mclaren777 its mathmatiacally impossible for the F1 road cars to do 231mph with the gears it comes with. especially when Mclaren themselfs say with the gears in it its "only" capable of 221 mph.
    and its impossible for it to do 240 mph because it has the factory redline limter set at 7500 rpms.
    and Mario Andretti was on the redline in sixth gear 7500 rpms and it did not do the factory claimed speed. its that simple i mean accept the fact the best a customer Mclaren F1 road car has done is 217.7 mph. The Ferrari F50 when tested by Car and Driver( Jan 97 ) never reached its claimed top speed of 202 mph it did " only " 194 mph.and it never did its Factory claimed skidpad of 1.2 g it only did a 0.95 g
    its not like i hate the F1 all i'm doing is stating FACTS.
    For the Price Mclaren was asking the F1 should deliver everything its claimed and it didn't.
     
  4. Dude, you have smoked yourself stupid. Anyways, I have got the video footage right here. Give me your email and I will mail it to you. The footage shows a stock F1 doing 391KM/hr (241mph) flat out during a top speed test.
     
  5. Dude, you have smoked yourself stupid. Anyways, I have got the video footage right here. Give me your email and I will mail it to you. The footage shows a stock F1 doing 391KM/hr (241mph) flat out during a top speed test.



    " DUDE " i have the same video its Johnathan Palmer at the Volkswagen test track in Ehra Lessien , Germany in the XP5 and NOT one of the 100 cars sold to customers. the XP5 is NOT a production Mclaren customer car. so before you call someone stupid get your facts striaght and do some research. agian NO Mclaren customer road car has been tested to 231 mph or 240.1 mph the best a customers car has ever gone is 217.7 mph. and just in case you didn't know the XP5 for that run at VW had its rev limiter removed and the top speed was reached at 8500 rpms and not the customer cars 7500 rpm limit.accept and embrace the facts if you can prove me wrong feel free , until then who looks " stupid " dude?



     
  6. Yea, but no other production car could go 240, even if McLaren tweaked the car a little, all car companies do it. Bugatti for its high speed testing had the side mirrors removed. Also a McLaren driver would be able to drive faster than Mario, because they have more experience in the car. McLaren could afford to spend more time at a high speed track to get the car right, but a magazine could not afford alot of time. Once again the XP5 did not differ that much from a production car, so 240 is still damn impressive.
     
  7. Yea, but no other production car could go 240, even if McLaren tweaked the car a little, all car companies do it. Bugatti for its high speed testing had the side mirrors removed. Also a McLaren driver would be able to drive faster than Mario, because they have more experience in the car. McLaren could afford to spend more time at a high speed track to get the car right, but a magazine could not afford alot of time. Once again the XP5 did not differ that much from a production car, so 240 is still damn impressive.


    Again No customer Mclaren F1 has done either 231 or 240.1 mph and the statement that a Mclaren driver would be able to driver faster then Mario , because they have more experience. Mario Andretti has raced everything from midgets , sprint cars , stock cars to Indy cars Formula 1 cars as well as Racing in the 24 hours of LeMans. his career has spanned over 35 years , now there is NO comparing Johnathan Palmer to Mario Andretti and to say he would be better at driving the Mclaren at speed is just absurd. i mean no offense to Johnathan Palmer hes a good driver but NO where near Mario Andretti.
    there is NO ONE more qualified to drive cars at high speeds then Mario.
    you said Mclaren could spend more time at a highspeed track to get the car right. if you read where Mario tested the cars it was a highspeed test track and these are road cars and should be " right " when they leave the factory. and Mario reached the top speed in sixth gear at the road cars 7500 rpm redline.
    Road & Track is the ONLY magazine that i know that has did a top speed test on a customer Mclaren road car . and the XP5 is NOT a customer production road car even though they say its basicly the same, apparently there not especially when the performace numbers don't match. Mclaren cant claim the fastest production car if no production F1 car reached the speeds of thier experimental prototype.
    the customer cars come with the factory 7500 rpm rev limiter so there is no way it will do the 240.1 mph.
    the fastest a production Mclaren F1 road car has gone is 217.7 mph
     
  8. true, you can't trust the speedo, but then the 217mph time they took was with a radar gun, and those are notorious for inaccuracy too.

    personally unless it's got a 5th wheel runner attached to the thing, or it's time to run a certain length of track, i wouldn't trust the top-speed measurement.

    anyway arguing over this is moot, nobody would doubt it's still widely regarded as the worlds fastest production car. so it's not quite 240mph, but what other car comes close?

    Before some idiot yells out hennessey 800tt, thats not a production car it's a tuner car.
     
  9. true, you can't trust the speedo, but then the 217mph time they took was with a radar gun, and those are notorious for inaccuracy too.

    personally unless it's got a 5th wheel runner attached to the thing, or it's time to run a certain length of track, i wouldn't trust the top-speed measurement.

    anyway arguing over this is moot, nobody would doubt it's still widely regarded as the worlds fastest production car. so it's not quite 240mph, but what other car comes close?

    Before some idiot yells out hennessey 800tt, thats not a production car it's a tuner car.





    The top speed tests where made using a timming trap and the Stalker radar gun , and radar guns are inaccurate if there not calibrated .
    thats why all runs where timmed as well as using a radar gun to ensure accuracy.and the 5th wheel is used for acceleration times and not top speed tests , i would love to see another customer Mclaren F1 road car top speed tested , i honestly would i'm very curious to see what another one would do.
     
  10. I meant that the McLaren driver has more experience driving the F1 at high speeds. Mario said that it was unstable at high speed, so the McLaren driver may have more confidence in the car. If Mario had more time in the car he would have more confidence and could push it harder. When Mario first started in Champ cars he was not the fastest, but with more experince he could compete.
     
  11. I meant that the McLaren driver has more experience driving the F1 at high speeds. Mario said that it was unstable at high speed, so the McLaren driver may have more confidence in the car. If Mario had more time in the car he would have more confidence and could push it harder. When Mario first started in Champ cars he was not the fastest, but with more experince he could compete.



    You had said Mario didn't push the car hard enough because he wasn't confident. but he pushed the car to its absolute maximum all the way to the cars 7500 rpm redline in sixth gear , i mean he cant push the car any harder then that and thats where the car made its maximum top speed 217.7 mph. i mean hey 217 mph is pretty impressive. but like i said before not one of the 100 customer Mclaren F1 production road cars have done 231 or 240 mph.
     
  12. McLaren offers (like most manufacturers) different gearing ratios.
    The standard one is supposed to go 230 mph. This is also the official Top Speed given. The short one reaches "only" 217 mph. So I think this should be the reason for the shortcoming.
    The Record car had a longer gearing, thus reached 240 mph.
    Most supercar top speeds are tested with the Final Prototypes, so nothing unusual there.

    And I'm surprised that Mario was surprised about the instability of the car's rear. I couldn't imagine it being not instable, because it has no rear wing and no diffuser can compensate that. Additionally it has a very short rear end. When you see the Jaguar XJ220 you see where this gets its downforce from.
    Maybe McLaren was a little optimistic when claiming it would be perfectly stable.
     

  13. E-mail message

    From: [email protected] (Nietzsche) Date: Thu, Jan 17, 2002, 12:57am To: [email protected] Subject: (no subject)
    Mclaren777
    First of all Mario did NOT bad mouth the F1 he said overall it was a impressive car, all he was doing was stating facts , i mean you have to get over the fact that it " only " goes 217.7 mph its that simple why would he be biased towards Ferrari ? he doesn't have stock in the company and guess what his personal car is a Lamborghini Diablo , you show me any article anywhere about another customer Mclaren F1 doing the reported top speed of 231 mph that has been independently tested. TIM851 said that the gearing may be higher but i checked the gearing for the XP5 as it was listed in Car and Driver when the tested it in their August 1994 issue.
    1st - gear ratio 3.2
    2nd - gear ratio 2.1
    3rd - gear ratio 1.7
    4th - gear ratio 1.3
    5th - gear ratio 1.1
    6th - gear ratio 0.93
    Final-Drive-Ratio 2.73:1 limited slip.
    Then i looked in Road & Track December 1997 when they road tested a customer Mclaren F1 road car and low and behold all the gear ratios are EXACTLY the same from first to sixth and the final rear drive ratio. Now in Car and Driver they quote Mclaren saying with this gear ratio the XP5's Top Speed is 221 mph redline limited.now that's not far off from the 217.7 mph Mario reached. and this test was before the Nardo run so Mclaren must have switched gear ratios for a higher top speed because with this gearing it says it will " only " do 221 mph And the XP5 and the road car have the exact same gear ratios . so mathmatically its impossible for the Mclaren road car to go the factory claimed 231 mph with the gear ratios it has and that would explain why the best its done so far which is 217.7 mph. now mind you i DON'T hate the Mclaren F1 i love the car it think its great i'm just stating the facts. and with that top speed it is still The Worlds Fastest Production Car.

     
  14. I'm just wondering, why do you care so much about the top speed? I've never gotten overly excited about it and not very many other people here have either. Why does this bother you so much. Also, I've done the math before and it does come out to about 221 mph after tire growth.<!-- Signature -->
     

  15. E-mail message

    From: [email protected] (Nietzsche) Date: Thu, Jan 17, 2002, 8:00am To: [email protected] Subject: (no subject)
    Mclaren 777
    I could care less about top speed but when customers pay $ 1,000,000 for a Mclaren road car its because they want the most exclusive and the fastest road going car ever built , now they get that but Mclaren falls a little short not only on the top speed but as far as acceleration numbers are concerned as well.
    The top speed is another issue that i brought before on how useless it really is , 99 % of the owners of these cars will never drive these cars at there limits , be it because skill..space or desire , if Mario Andretti had a handful driving the F1 at its limits and he's one of the best racing drivers who ever lived and has 35 years of pure racing experience how well do you think the average owner would fair? now when Mclaren makes claims on what its car can do and it don't deliver they should be held accountable especially considering the car costs $ 1,000,000 and its marketed as with a claimed top speed of 231 mph.

     
  16. Just because Road and Track didn't produce the same numbers, doesn't mean the F1 can't do them. Unfortunately, not very many magazines have tested one.<!-- Signature -->
     
  17. When a German TV-Show tested the Lamborghini Diablo it reached "only"
    198 mph. I've heard similar things before. I think it's a little odd
    that so many of these Supercars can't deliver their "guaranteed" Top Speeds.
    I think 13 mph is a little too much shortcoming for a $1 Million car.
    Maybe none of the owners will ever be able to reach even the 217.7 mph. The world record for speed on a public road was 219 mph by a tweaked Porsche Turbo on a highway in New Zealand. In 2000 or so a 900 HP Nissan Skyline (not sure, all these Jap cars look the same)
    tried to break this record but got stuck in German traffic.
    But anyways, if they said it goes 231 it should. If they would have said it was 217 mph, I don't think it would have lessened the effect of the car, but they didn't.

    And again some guessing, maybe it couldn't reach the Top Speed because the Ameritech version is said to have a de-tuned engine.
     
  18. The original Diablo has been tested multiple times and it has gone above 200 mph.Lamborghini didn't overstate their claims. The speedometer is a little optimistic because the original Diablo say 212 mph when it is actually going 202 mph.

    And the Diablo 6.0 did over 220 mph (over 360 km/h) at Nardo with their optional 5th gear ratio!! Fastest production car ever to be tested at Nardo!!
     
  19. I don't believe that the Diablo 6.0, which has far as I know some 50 HP more than the standard one, can go 360 km/h.
    That would be more than the Jag XJ220 with nearly identical power.
    And the Lambo doesn't really look like efficient aerodynamics.
     
  20. It is not only because of the power, but because of longer 5th gear ratio! The DIablo 6.0 was tested by Nik Berg at Nardo. It exceded 220 mph. The shorter 5th gear ratio for the Diablo 6.0 does 208 mph.

    Of course it's faster than the XJ220! The DIablo 6.0 even has better 0-60 mph and 1/4 mile mile times as well!
     
  21. By the Way, if you weren't aware, the Diablo 6.0 has the best aerodynamics of any car in the world. a drag coifficient of only 0.30. That beats the Mclaren F1, Porsche 959 and original Diablo's drag coifficient of 0.31. How does it not look aerodynamic?
     
  22. The last I heard were worse aerodynamics for the Lambo, so I'm sorry.
    I just thought they were right because it doesn't look "slick".
    But 0.30 isn't the best.
    Some crappy Lexus Sedan has the world record with 0.25 or so.
    And this thing looks like the last S-Class of Mercedes, only smoother. Maybe I shouldn't base everything on the appearance.
     
  23. Bravo for Lexus! It must look pretty wierd...
     
  24. I think the GM EV1 does with .19
     
  25. Dude, Its the Lexus LS400. But its only 0.28. And its not ugly or stupid. Its one of the best luxury sedans out there.<!-- Signature -->
     

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