Re: S-Type R vs. M5

Discussion in '2002 Jaguar S-Type R' started by stars, Aug 9, 2002.

  1. Look fellas, after 9 pages of debate about various issues pertaining to the BMW vs. Jag topic, as for the horsepower-efficency-hp per liter arguments, it really comes down to what each car does with their respective power. We can argue all day long about different cars' horsepower ratings and hp/liter, but it doesn't change the fact that it doesn't mean anything unless it materializes into performance on the street or track. Look at the Infinit Q45 w/ its 340 hp V8 that blew away its competition on paper and was supposed to follow in performance. However, due to gearing issues, and other intangible factors, the Q simply didn't perform up to the level expected, leaving the likes of the BMW 540i with its "lowly" 282 hp 4.4L V8 still on top in terms of straight line acceleration, despite it's paper-disadvantage. You see, BMW has a renowned history for producing much-better than average performance numbers out of its cars who's horsepower and torque ratings don't seem to measure up. That's what it's really all about, and in this case, the 394 hp M5 has not disappointed in this area either with its consistent 4.6-4.8 second 0-60 times, and low 13 second 1/4 miles. The Jag, as tested by various magazines since its introduction, has failed to deliver as promised to some extent: for a car with more HP and torque, not to mention "better" transmission, and lighter overall weight, it hasn't been able to match the performance of the out-going 370 hp XJR sedan, at least in terms of a straight-line. This is not to say that it ultimately can't, or that Jaguar is simply an inferior car company, but let's not just talk numbers, because ultimately it's performance that matters. And in that respect, BMW is just getting it done more often that not.
  2. You do realize that BMW has a knack for underrating the hp and torque figures of it's cars.
  3. Yes, I've absolutely considered that possibility, but have come to 2 conclusions regarding it: First, they're not underating them as much as they're performance would indicate, at least in a few cases. There was a dyno test of a 328i in a magazine test a while back that had the car putting down a little over 150 rwhp, making the 193 hp flywheel rating very close to accurate. I realize most BWM's don't get dyno tested, but I've seen more than a few that do, and produce exactly what they're rated at. I believe they're performance has more to do with superior gearing and very efficent driveline and engine operation than numbers alone. That's why people who are familar with BMW's understand this performance "mystery." Underating engines is the logical explanation, but when that doesn't always check out, admiration is the only thing left to have for it. All this brings me to my second conclusion: Ok, say they are underating some of their engines beyond the ones that make it to the dyno and check out ok; in my opinion, that only enhances the argument for them having superior engine technology through efficency and power. If a 225 hp 3.0L engine is underated, and actually makes more like 240-250 hp at only 6,000 rpm, all with a wonderfully broad torque spread that's way more than 214 ft-lbs, I'm just as impressed with that from a 3.0 liter engine as I would be from just having the better-than-expected performance. So basically my point is, whatever they're doing, it's working.
  4. I guess also my main arguments for this and the last 2 posts is that I'd rather have a car that performs better consistently regardless of how accurate it's hp and torque ratings are. BMW does that consistently more than the competitors.
  5. jaguar's limited edition 4.5L AJ-V8 engine, which will be fitting in XKRs is far superior than an M5.
    650HP, vs the 400HP of a 5.0L BMW.
    here you can see BMW is far behind Jaguar when matching closer displacement.
    Oh, i mind you, that the jaguar's 4.5 doesn't use a supercharger.
  6. I love how you neglect to answer anything I've put forth in my previous post because you know that you were wrong on each and every account.

    As for this theoretical limited edition 4.5L V8 blah blah. I'll give it some credence when I see it for myself or when you yourself can provide me with PROOF that this engine is going into production. Not to mention that I'd like to see some blueprints for the motor.

    All you do is quote numbers which you seem to pull out of your ass. How about actually providing some sort of factual basis for your seemingly bullshit comments.

    I don't even know why I bother with someone who thinks that (in your words) "Jaguar bolted on the supercharger for the acceleration and not the hp."
  7. engine is being produced for its revised trans am version jaguars.
    production models are also going to be built, as jaguar is planning to expand its racing program.
    remember that certain number of cars as to be produced, in order for it to race rule.
    jaguar found this way cheaper than actually producing a new model. Simply using a current production model and advance tuning the engine.
    Wait, that's basically the same thing BMW did with its engine!
    instead jaguar did it with a smaller displacement
    granted the racing version will actually have more than 650HP, and probably be closer to the 700HP previously acheived in the old pushrod mustang engine.
    you can view the press release by jaguar.

    the blueprints? a stretched out 4.2 engine, basically

    why? Ford did the same thing to the Cobra.
    And why do you think people easily achieve 450HP by boosting up the supercharger?
  8. granted i give props to BMW for the three series, even though the inline 6's are actually from British designs. However, granted BMW invested greatly in them, and improved them significatly. though little can actually be said about the BMW v8.
    The 2nd generation X-Type top version, which right now doesn't seem that it would be produce. Stats did show a 3.0 337HP supercharged v6 engine. Though a larger engine was also in designed. Which we know now is the 3.5L v8 engine and may still be placed into an X-Type. The X-Type, may be the only jaguar not to get a R version, but Jaguar is planning on expanding into a high performance version again (recall XJS-RS, etc,). Meaning, jaguar wants people to buy a modified car from jaguar and not elsewhere basically.
    a performance version X-Type (a 300HP 3.0 was say to be in the pipeline, and no supercharger thus not the R badge.)
    granted price is a problem, thus reason for another like, focuins on another group of people
    people unlike you and I basically who wouldn't mind spending $100k on a car.
    The higher end sector is what Jaguar use to succeed in and that's what's being explored.

    additions are currently aftermarket, being phased into factory options. Lighter rims, spoilers, body kits are currently factory dealer options. increase supercharger is something dealerships do. Though it's something jaguar did think of doing, but selected not to, for terms of reliability of the car,
    though jaguar did release a stretched out v8 engine as a factory engine (650HP if you're curious from a 4.5L natural v8)
    stated in yahoo business section, btw.

    jaguar has the better reputation.
    JD powers prove it.
    jaguar is 2nd.
    Lincoln is 5th
    Benz is 9th
    mercury is 10th
    BMW is 11th
    Ford is 12th.
    tends to show how bad BMW cars are made right now...

    Jaguar also have the best used car program, in satisfacion and in quality by consumers report.

    the newer S-Type R interior is bigger, though the overall car size is far bigger than the M5. you actually have a trunk in an SR, in the M5 you do not. though the cabin is bigger due to design. when jaguar do the chasis revision within 3 years, the S-Type would be a more comfortable car, similar to what jaguar did with the XJR.
  9. #134 JaguarX, Feb 25, 2003
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    bmw gets 300HP out of a bi-turbo 3.0L 6 cylinder engine.
    the 5.0 in the M5 is so highly tuned, that a supercharger or turbo for that matter may not boost it as much. Also reliability would also be of much concern.
    granted, Jaguar use to achieve 600HP in its old 6 cylinder engine during is GT prominence, before it got banned... i guess similar to BMW.
    granted i agree with you in the viper.
    jaguar will be using the new engine vs the M5 engine in racing competition.
    so i guess, racing results would tell which one is better now wouldn't it.
  10. I think we all need to be careful about how we label what car companies "get" out of their engines when trying to defend our own arguments, and start recognizing that the power of these cars is what they are "tuned" to produce. The power figures a car company assigns to different engines isn't a declaration by them saying, "Well, there it is, everyone. That's all we could get from this one. Hope it's good enough." No. It's simply what they intended the particular car to have to fit a certain market niche, be competitive in a field, etc, while also inherently being an indicator, but not an absolute reflection, of what the company's engineers are capable of; i.e., if BMW or Jaguar produced a 4.0L v8 that made 250 hp for whatever reason, as intelligent people, we shouldn't automatcially assume that the frontier of their engine development technology has suddenly taken a step back and is therefore inferior. They obviously have the means to do more if they desire to. However, it would be perfectly acceptable to garner respect for one of those companies' engineering technology if they came out with a naturally aspirated 3.0L I6 that made 450 hp. Different cars have different purposes, and their specifications are merely indicators, although sometimes very strong ones, about a company's potential, but still not an absolute validation of it. Judging them any other way is a hasty generalization, in spite of our tendancy to do so.
  11. By that same token, you might want to take a look at what the M5's V8 does in the hands of a tuner. Generally, it's understood that the more detuned an engine is, the more potential for increasing its power is available. The M5's engine seems anything but detuned, already producing over 80 hp/liter. However, the BMW tuner Dinan has recently released a new M5 package that boosts its power to 470 at 6,900 rpm, as well as pumping up torque to 419 ft-lbs. That's a pretty substantial increase in power from only adding high flow intake and exhaust systems(including custom intake runners and headers) and tweaking the car's computer and fuel system. I mean, damn, all that without even touching the heads or bumping displacement. That says something about the technology thrown into that engine, if 394 hp, a 7,000 rpm redline, and a huge powerband thats present no matter what the rev count stock, is unstressed. You can't talk about engine technology and respect together without considering BMW, if only for this engine alone. Trust me, if you're a Jaguar fan, and are confident because you think the M5's engine is maxed out as it is, you dont even want to think about it with forced induction.
  12. Don't even bother with him. He likes to talk out of his ass when he knows that his precious Jags are outclassed and outdone by another manufacturer. Personally I love Jaguars, but this guy doesn't know how to support an arguement. When he realizes that he's WRONG, he immediately shifts the focus to a new topic. In his last few posts he was bragging about how the S-Type R has more interior space than an M5. He only chose to do that because I shut his ass down when he tried to say that an S-Type was bigger than an E38 7 Series. He preaches about Jaguar's racing engines when we're here to discuss the ROAD GOING S-Type R. Then he talks about future Jaguars which are still only in the concept phase and he brags about how they will shut down anything to emerge from Munich. I guess he doesn't know that BMW plans to resurrect the M1 moniker and build a lightweight mid engined supercar with a rumored inline 6 or V10 or motivation.

    I will give him this though, if Chris Bangle isn't shot soon Jaguar will definitely have a lineup that LOOKS better than that of BMW's (so long as they don't make the mistake of hiring Bangle).

    Oh and when I saw that your screen name was LS6 it reminded me of something small block related. I thought about how a lot of people have resorted to yanking out the old Jag V12's from their XJS's and replaced them with SMALL BLOCK CHEVY'S. Just goes to show you how wonderful those old Jag engines are... especially when you consider that people replace them with an engine that's basically 50 years old. Then again who can blame em, the small block chevy is by far the most versitle motor in the world, hence the reason it is the most used engine in aftermarket applications.

    As Sean Connery says in SNL Celebrity Jeopardy... "put that in your straw and suck it."
  13. i never said that the S-R has mroe room,
    i said it has more room (meaning it's bigger than its older version) though the S-Type is a bigger car without a doubt.
    745 is 198.0 inches long, compared to the S-type Length of 192.0 in.
    though i also going to assume the number is closer when comparing to the 735.

    so my bad that the S-Type R was 6 inches shorter than the 7 series.
    just support my claim that the S competes against both the 5 and 7 series in terms of car size.the s is jag's midsized sedan, yet its close to bmw's large size sedan, that was the purpose of my statement

    jaguar for the past two decades had shut down anythign that came from munich. the 4.4L v8 bmw released got shut down by the 4.2L
    the XJR shuts down the 7 series without a doubt.
    and the new XKR i mentioned will shut down the Z8.
    i'm sorry to brag. but when someone says munich will always beat a jaguar. they're dead wrong.
    granted I'd be the first to admit, bmw got some nice cars.
    but when it comes to performance of the engine (taking aside the car for a moment) Jaguar is just better.

    Yet, the Jaguar V12's only won couple Le Man's competitions.
    yes, the main reason why people put away the V12's is the cost, not necessarily that the Chevy is a better engine. The XJS has a GM transmission, therefore people found it more affordible to simply put in a vette engine, versus a discontinued 5.3L engine.
    Though to note, when the V12 was released it was the fastest car in the world. Though, I don't see many people doing the same thing with the 6.0L V12.

    yet, wasn't the M series purpose to produce a racing road car version? or at least a car symbolizing it. doesn't BMW use the M5 engine in racing?
    the Jaguar 4.5L v8, as I mentioned will be available in a road car.
    Though I'd admit we'd probably first see it in a racing car.
    and yet, BMW is working on a v10 for it's 5 series, and a bi-turbo engine 6, and what not. But jaguar is also working on similar projects.
    when it all comes down to, is this.
    Jaguar has better power output numbers, while BMW has better acceleration stat numbers (though many would argue that the transmission is the main difference) but it is what the buyer wants.
    I for one, want a car with power, and really do not care for it's 0-60. What difference does half a second do anyways.

    what i'm saying is, and not necceassily direct at you.
    But Jaguar has gone a long way from the cars of the 80s.
    Jaguar will be offering more engine options to all of it's model line-up. It has been years that jaguar will build another engine superior to the 4.2, to be placed in the XKR. we're seeing it today with the 4.5L. So what that Jaguar is first selling it to racing companies to help fund the project, to later place it in a road driven XKR. It's an engine, when compared to the 5.0L whether road or racing of BMW, to be superior.
  14. BUAHAHAHAHAHA. When has the S-Type ever won a comparo against an E39. LMAO. Oh yes, that 4.2L AJ-V8 sure dominates that 4.4L outta Munich. That's why the E39 is considered the engineering standard for midsizers. That's why Jag tries to mimic what comes out of Munich. LOL. Seriously stop, you're giving me a heart attack here. I love when you claim that "you're the first to admit that BMW has some nice cars." HAHAHA, more talking out of your ass. You're not the first, EVERY CAR MAGAZINE ON THE PLANET ALREADY PUT THE BIMMER IN FRONT OF THE JAG. As for the XJR shutting down the 7 Series Bimmer, I wouldn't be suprised as BMW doesn't build an M7. Besides IMHO the E65 is an ugly POS and to this day I am amazed as to how it outsells the S-Class.

    Ok let's continue addressing your bullshit comments one by one here.

    "the new XKR will shut down the Z8."

    HAHAHAHAHA, yah sure, compare a brand new car that's still being developed to a car that's just about to END it's production run. Stupid ass.

    What else did you say that makes no sense, hmmm...

    "the reason people choose the SBC is because of the cost of the Jaguar 5.3L V12."

    NO SHIT SHERLOCK, the old Jag 5.3L V12 is an overpriced, overweight, underpowered piece of shit that leaks oil. DUH, of course people ditch it because of the cost, THAT'S THE POINT. The Jag costs too much to maintain, is underpowered, and most of all... it's *gasp* UNRELIABLE. That's why today, Jaguar uses DESIGNS BASED ON FORD ARCHITECTURE DUMBASS (READ CAREFULLY, DESGINS B-A-S-E-D O-N, I wouldn't want you to get pissy and try to say that I claimed that Ford built the engines). The engines are built in house by Jaguar BUT IN CASE YOUR IGNORANT ASS DIDN'T NOTICE, THEY COME IN THE SHAPE OF V6'S AND V8'S, AND NOT STRAIGHT 6'S AND V12 ANYMORE. If you try to bullshit outta this one, you truly are a dumbass. It's a proven fact that Jaguar sales rose when Ford showed up and started exchanging Jag technology for their own. Sorry buddy, but them old Jag motors are a headcase.

    Next bullshit point you brought up...

    Like I said, I want to see that 4.5L V8 under the hood of a street machine. DO NOT talk out of your ass and make claims. Show proof, give me a reliable source. Give me a web address.


    "I for one, want a car with power, and really do not care for it's 0-60. What difference does half a second do anyways."

    So you want a slower car that has a higher hp rating. Time to take my insults to the next level here. F**king moron. Yep sure, give me a car that is rated at 400hp but can only run 15's and run through the cones at 60mph instead of a car that is rated at 380hp, runs 13's and can pull 65mph slaloms. You are such a stupid ass that it's not even funny. This whole debate is fueled over the performance between the two cars. So you're telling me that you'd choose a car with a higher hp rating over the faster car if you were concerned with performance. Dumbass. You say you want a car with power. Well what good is all that power if your car is still SLOWER than the competition. Doesn't really make sense does it? Yep give me a car with lots of power that's slow as f**k. Really makes a lot of sense. Then you say, you want power while others want acceleration. ?????????????????????????????????????????????? Dipshit, those who want a car with quick acceleration times are obviously not going to be turned off by a car that makes a lot of power.

    "What difference does a half a second make anyway"

    Whatever it takes to win man. Sounds to me like you just admitted in a very chicken shit manner that your S-Type R would get it's doors blown off by an M5. Thank you for making my point.

    Finally, you're bullshit comments about Jaguar and it's racing efforts are pointless. Until BMW and Jag go head to head in a similar racing series, there is no point in comparing the two companies. The answer to your question is NO, BMW does not run the 5.0L V8 in motorsports. A few years back, PTG campaigned a few M3's with 5.0L M5 V8's (these were not the same as the 4.0L V8 powered M3 GTR's) but that's all I've heard. BMW's car of choice in motorsports is the M3, not the M5. I will come right out and say the way BMW manipulated the system and bullshitted the officials into believing that it would build production GTR's was downright disgraceful. In any case, like I said, until the X-Type and the 3 Series or the S-Type and the 5 Series go head to head in some sort of motorsport series it's impossible to compare the two. You can't compare a 650hp V8 powered Trans-Am shadow car to a race spec M3 with an actual body.
  15. the redesign 4.4L from BMW came after Jaguar 4.2 and as an answer the previous 4.0L verison.
    so lets don't go there
    M7? BMW is years behind in developing a high performance large sedan to catch up with jaguar. Jaguar been doing it since 1987. One reason why they shed away from it. The sports car market for BMW is at greater jeaporday, from Jaguar and Audi alike. Though it wouldn't surprise me to see a 6-series sports car to try to compete with the XK.

    jaguar is still producing v12s today, in case you weren't aware.
    Though they're not in jaguar cars anymore, but rather aston martins.

    about the Jaguar engines. I know the 3.0 and 2.5L V6s...
    but what ford engine did Jaguar copy when they make the 4.2L v8, or the 3.5L v8?
    Starting after 2005, after Conventry gets updated, all future engine developments will come from the UK. The XJ is the first in this transition.

    about racing: BMW is going with the 5.0L M5 engines this year, i didn't say which car, just they announced that as their engine choice and Jaguar is going with the 4.5L XKR engine,
    for the jaguar engine to quality there also must be a model.
    the real car as you wish is suppose to be seen in autocars this upcoming weekend. Press release note as even been posted in,, trans am; a production car. so we're talking about a real jaguar, just the name hasn't been finalized. It may be called trans-am to represent its origin, or it'll simply be called the XKR-S, more likely as another retro-type move, recalling the days of a high-tuned 6.0L s. Ah yes, did you remember the days that the 6 series get destroyed by an XJS?
    I have yet to see someone pull out a jaguar 6.0L...
    the 5.3L and 4.2L, yes i know what the problem was, the German electrical system installed in them at the time. Want proof, open up an 80s jaguar and find out where those electrical cables, fuses, wirings and relays are built, "the made in germany label" drew enough anger. Yet again, my car reached 200,000 miles so little can be said about unreliability.
    Strangly enough, the jags were reliable in the UK, but termed unreliable in the US. 1988 was the best year, by the way,

    back to this:
    yet, the m5 beats the S-R by fractions of a second 0-60, though the Jaguar does beat it 0-40, and handling is solely base on opinion. Drag coefficent of the cars are virtually identical. Yet it goes down to this, comfort of an auto, or the sports feel of a manual.
    or motortrend put
    "While the R model will never quite be the BMW M5's nemesis, [reference to its acceleration]it does assert itself between the M5 and the Mercedes-Benz E55 AMG with authority -- and a measure of elegance the other two machines lack.[notice lack of luxury find in a BMW, oh yes leather seats is an option in a M5] Besides, at a price $7000 less than the current M5 [wow you can get an arden upgrade for that price, and get a car a lot faster than the m5, reference to another post]and almost $9000 [Benz here just got blown away]below that of the E55, value might outweigh fractions of a second in this race."
    Jaguar has always been the car of the better performance cars, and the heavy luxury sedans. There are people out there who buy heavy cars with high horsepower. Why? so people can actually check out your car, and having an awesome sound.
    Let's face reality here. Can Jaguar produce a car that can beat the M5? of course they can they choose not to. All they have to do is slap on a manual and shed some weight and the world will be happy.
    but manual transmission has been reserved to special edition cars, a sales gimmick basically.
    Can BMW counter? yes of course; nothing more than a European Ford vs GM.
    Jaguar offers more luxury than BMW at a cheaper price. though BMW offers better sports feel. i'm getting bored with this conversation.

    Looking at engine technology and tuning, jaguar is better.
    in terms of current road performance vehicles, bmw is slight ahead at the moment.
    in terms of higher end (supercars) Jaguar simply dominated.
    in terms of race cars (minus F1, but wait neither have their own team) Jaguar has dominated substantially.
    I guess you can say BMW got the present. but jaguar has the past and the future
    which would you choose?
  16. #141 bruddah man matt, Mar 6, 2003
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Ummmmmmmmmm, The Jaguar 4.0L V8 was introduced in 1996. Scroll down to the engine codes, you want to look for M62 as that is the designation for the BMW 4.4L V8. You see that part where it says that it's been manufacturered since '96. So you see, both the Jag 4.0L V8 and the BMW 4.4L V8 engines were introduced around the same time. The problem is that the BMW M60 4.0L V8 came before both these motors as it was introduced in '92. The M62 is basically an update of the M60, so actually the Bimmer V8 came first you moron. More shit talking out of your ass.

    Basic timeline for your retarded ass

    '92 BMW introduces the M60 4.0L V8
    '96 BMW updates the M60 to the M62 4.4L V8 and at the SAME TIME Jaguar introduces the 4.0L V8.
    '03 Jaguar updates the 4.0L V8 and increases displacement to 4.2L while BMW still retains the 4.4L M62. Oh and what do you know, the S-Type still can't run with an E39. Dipshit. LS6 was right, you make claims but never bother to search for facts.

    As for BMW being behind in building a full sized sport sedan, BMW's reasoning for not building an M7 was that...

    #1 they lacked a manual transmission for the toruqe of a high output V12

    #2 there is no market for a full sized luxury car (umm, I'd have to disagree with them there, AMG S55, S8, XJR)

    However when did I say that the E38 or the E65/66 would outperform an XJ in my post? Stupid ass. I know a PERFORMANCE ORIENTED XJR would outrun and outgun any run in the mill 7 form Munich. Geez, unlike you, I like all automobiles and am able to admit when one car is better than another instead of bitching when a car that I like can't hold it's own.

    As for your comment about Jaguar building V12's for Aston Martin. Umm, last time I checked buddy, Aston Martin's were hand assembled. It's either one or two Aston Martin technicians who put together the 5.9L V12 piece by piece and sign the engine with their name/s.

    More bullshit from you...
    "Can Jaguar build a car that can beat the M5? Of course they can, they just have to slap on a manual and drop some weight."

    You are the most ignorant motherf**ker on the planet. Yep, just cut weight from a vehicle and add a manual tranny and it'll be able to run with the big boys. Stupid ass, if it were that easy, why didn't Jagar do that in the first place. How about you face reality, Jaguar tried to topple the M5 but didn't. It's a compromise no matter how you look at it. We're not here to discuss comfort and road manners, this thread was created to discuss the performance between both of these cars, but since you keep on getting shut down, you change the topic with every new post. No wonder you're getting tired of this convo, you're running out of bullshit excuses.

    Your last attempt at more bullshit
    "Looking at engine technology and tuning, jaguar is better.
    in terms of current road performance vehicles, bmw is slight ahead at the moment.
    in terms of higher end (supercars) Jaguar simply dominated.
    in terms of race cars (minus F1, but wait neither have their own team) Jaguar has dominated substantially.
    I guess you can say BMW got the present. but jaguar has the past and the future
    which would you choose?"

    How about some facts to support your claims. Jaguar has better engine technology... hahahahahahah, good one. I don't deny that they build better motors than they used to, but now you're talking out of your ass. In terms of current road performance vehicles, how about you cut the shit and tell it like it is, BMW's M Division vehicles would murder Jaguar's R lineup. In terms of higher end supercars, I don't see Jaguar or BMW building anything that costs more than about a $120,000. We're not here to discuss TWR built XJ220's, and XJR-15's that were created some 10 years ago, we're talking about the present, and as of now, neither of the two is producing anything worthy of being called a supercar. Not even the Z8 qualifies. In terms of motorsports, Jaguar F1... hahahahahahahah. What a joke. You can't compare the two, Jag runs in Trans-Am, BMW in GT Class Sports Car racing, like I said THE TWO COMPANIES DON'T RUN TOGETHER IN ANY RACING SERIES AT THIS TIME (save for F1), SO WHY ARE YOU COMPARING THE MOTORSPORTS EFFORTS OF BOTH COMPANIES YOU IDIOT. We're not here to discuss motorsports of the past, both companies have rich history in motorsports. Honestly Jaguar has probably has a lot more trophies, but why are you talking about the past when we are here to discuss the present.

    I'll finish with this...


  17. this thing is a ford escort with a bigger engine
  18. jaguar did build XJ220s, with TWR version available.
    twr was focused more on the racing aspect of the car.

    in my last post, i am talking more about the future than the past.
    just released yesturday, expansion of the XK, and the XJ had been confirmed, and the models will be released by 2007; and the XK to come out as a 2005 model. Meaning we will be seeing a bigger engine XK coming out of Conventry as I mentioned before.
    Also I mentioned in previous posts, the X-Type production was halted, to make room for diesel engines.
    Confirmed today, as Disel variants of the X-Type will be out this summer, as well as estate saloons this summer.

    jaguar seems to have the dominate hand in terms of future production vehicles. Especially since BMW is going to turboed engines, a big mistake in my opinion.

    I'll give all the props to BMW for the M3, for I see it as a even better car than the M5 in certain ways.
    Just the M5 isn't as good as what people make it out to be.
    "Can Jaguar build a car that can beat the M5? Of course they can, they just have to slap on a manual and drop some weight."
    highly true statement. even mercedez and audi could
    how come jaguar didn't do this?
    Due to contractually issues regarding a manual transmission to aftershop organizations, and the price of the car, jaguar just leave it to their dealerships to make such an adjustment.
    don't forget what is jaguar's competition in the UK? bentley, RR, and rover. All three, Jaguar dominates in terms of performance and price (with the exception of some rover automobiles) The new XJR is also a main target against the RR, the Bentley in the UK, and the 7 series with BMW.
    however, the jag s-type R and the bmw m5 is the same argument, as asking which is better, a Ford Mustang or a Chevy Camaro.
    but when it comes down to a m3 versus an x-type, it's an m3 for performance.
    but when it comes down to a 7 series versus an XJR, it's the XJR for performance.
    Jaguar is known for its higher end performance vehicles, thus why Jaguar did and does have higher top speed ,
    let's face this now, jaguar isn't alone, since it's now head of the PAG. Meaning Jaguar in full control of Aston Martin and Land Rover.
    the 5.9L engine is derived from Jaguar engineers; and some Ford I admit; but it wasn't an AM true production; jaguar has as much control over AM, as Ford has over Jaguar.... so you can figure out how that one works.

    the powerplant for a high price car normally isn't from the same company; especialy the cars in the UK.
    Williams for example uses BMW, McLaren now uses Mercedez Benz, Noble uses Ford and Aston Martin uses Jaguar.
    now about racing; Jaguar also runs in GTS, and will also run in GT; besides now having a full Trans-Am program; the #1 provider of engines and cars to that circuit, beating out the Corvette.
    a 4.0 AJ-v8 engine has been designed (currently inserted in AM vehicles) and would also likely be placed into a GT racing X-Type

    Now, the following opinions can be biased. But due to a signed agreement by Ford, with BMW, when they did the sale; the Range Rover will continue to use the 4.4L v8 till the end of 2004/5. It will be replaced by a more reliable, more torquier and more economical 4.2L v8.
    Though I admit the Brits can be biased. But this is another evidence of the Jaguar engine being superior in nature.

    oh, for your information, it has a prototype 2004/5 3.0L engine designed by SVT; perhaps ignorance is bliss..

    oh, and about history, the Jaguar AJ-V8 is derived from the 1962 2.5L v8 which later evolved to the 3.2L v8, and now currently the 3.5L v8. Jaguar had used these series of v8s, since the acquisition of Daimler in the 60s. though we can always go back and forth who came first, second, etc.

    now the 5 series did come before the S-Type... wait did it?
    the 5 series sedan came out in 1972, while the Jaguar S-Type came out in 1963. but why bother with the past.

    they're definetly close, and by saying jaguar just followed bmw was not a valid statement, and that many times, BMW actually followed jaguar. though granted some engines were vice versa.
    also, the 4.0L v8, actually has an evolution of the 4.0 L6, which was a modification to the XJ40 3.8 l6. *yawns* let's just leave it as they came around the same time, since they did the engine boast around the same time.

    now, i must be frank to conclude... whether it be childish nature, or just plain ignorance, foul language has no part in here. some of the information you said was dead wrong. some has its truth... but i reiterate foul language just shows ignorance or frustration on your part that are wrong, and i don't believe that was what you were trying to portray.
  19. As usual, the majority of your post is crap. You basically just went ahead and posted what you did the first few times even though you have already been proven wrong. Like with why X-Type production was halted. It was NOT halted because they are developing a diesel, it was halted because no one was buying the car. I even posted a link for you. They are developing a diesel but for the last time, PRODUCTION WAS HALTED BECAUSE PEOPLE AREN'T WILLING TO PAY FOR WHAT'S ESSENTIALLY AN AWD MONDEO WITH A JAG GRILLE AND REAR END, WOOD DRIM, A SMALL POWER INCREASE, AND A FEW CHROME ACCENTS.

    As for the current Jaguar V8, it's based off of Ford architecture, basically a Duratec V6 with 2 more cylinders, not an old Jag design. As for makine a claim that the S-Type dates back to '63. Just because two cars carry the same name, it doesn't mean they have anything in common. Take today's Impala for example. The S-Type is built off of the DEW8 platform, therefore it has nothing to do with ANYTHING built back in '63. The rest of your post is basic BS and nothing more than you talking out of your ass.

    And finally, you focus on my language in order to try to divert attention from your stupidity. You'll notice that I only used profain language in my last few posts to you as you have demonstrated that you truly are an idiot. I've shown you numerous times that you are wrong, but you just don't get it.

    YOU CLAIM THAT SOME OF MY INFO WAS DEAD WRONG. SHOW ME WHERE I WAS WRONG. If I was wrong, I wont be ashamed to admit my fault unlike you. Whenever someone shuts you down, you seem to make it worse by covering crap with more crap.
  20. Shut your asshole!
  21. M5-I prefer the looks.
  22. So are you saying that modern Jaguars are all Ford engineered? V8 is a Ford engine? I suggest you say all this on the main forum, I think our Jag expert Chris V will put you right.

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