Re: *sigh* Americans...

Discussion in '2002 Porsche 911 GT2' started by Josh427, Aug 10, 2002.

  1. I like chicken
    Breaded to be exact.
     
  2. What you a lot of you people don't realize about the price of this car is not that it is engineering costs, or even importation costs that make it expensive, but the rarity of it. Porsch will only built a handfull of these cars and they will go to people who want exclusivity in what they are driving. Probably between 100 and 500 cars a year if at all.
     
  3. My Turkey could smoke your chicken!!!
     
  4. Hmmm..that is very true. Porshces are basically colletors cars unless you talk bout the Boxster.

    As for making an American car that costs the same as a Porsche...well a Vette or Viper in that case..I'm note quite sure who will win that one.
    If you look @ the US cars, they are front engines, RWD cars. Porsche is Mid ro Rear engined and RWD car.
    In terms of weight distribution, the Porsche has the advantage.

    If you look @ engine terms. The Porsche has Turbos...which means turbo lag..(not much though..trust me..me driven a 2001 911T).
    Also, the Porshce lacks in torque.
    The US cars have large engine..but valvetrain is lower tech, but reliable. They also have shitloads of torque from around 2000rpm to 6500rpms. But US have lower redline dude to pushrod design. So if you looks @ it..acceleration is quite equivalent due to Turbo Lag for Porsche, and Low rev only for US. The thing is if US cars change to a DOHC or Quad CAM system with 4 or 5 valves per cyl..or dun even change from the 2 valve per cyl, they will get a hell of a lot more power and top speed.
    The only thing that is preventing the US cars from reaching better top speed is the pushrods...change them and you're fine.

    The only disadvantage of the US cars is the constant handling =) The Porsche is built to be race ready..and all hand built.
    The Vettes have less balance due to weight distribution.
    If they made a mid engined Vette with DOHC and a lil more tech, I am not afraid to say it will whoop ass! =)

    But I will say is that I would drive a Z06 Everyday...but the GT2 will be for weekends and fun =)

    DA PUN
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  5. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Christianmc</i>
    <b>My Turkey could smoke your chicken!!! </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    my mushu pork could smoke your turkey
     
  6. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from American HP</i>
    <b>People saying that american v-8's get bad gas mileage.
    When in reality they get a hell of a lot better gas mileage than most cars. The zo6 gets 28mpg on the highway. Thats better that the gt2's 20mpg, so much for a highly advanced engine! Even a little honda 4 cylinder would have a hard time getting this kind of gas mileage. They state that they get around 32-34, but when they are actually driven at highway speeds (60-75mph) the engine has to work so hard that the gas mileage drops, alot!</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    American V-8s do get fair gas mileage. That's because they can run 80mph at less than 3000rpms. I own an Integra. I can run 80mph with the same gas mileage as a V-8 at about 3000rpms and its a 4 speed auto mind you. Inline 4s do not lose a lot of their gas mileage. In support of the Vette, it is not an "low-tech" car. Yes, it still uses a pushrod design, but car technology is not only in the damn engine. Vettes do have their LCD windshields and nifty brake handling systems. And given the opportunity, I would take the Porsche over a Viper, simply because its a Porsche, and simply because I can hear over the flat-6 and not the V-10 =).<!-- Signature -->
     
  7. Chicken have such a better flavor than turkey, it's not even funny.
     
  8. in reference to the porsche's superior weight balance due to it's reaer engine, rear wheel drive configuration, most porsches have weight distribution of approximately 40% front, 60% rear or something within a few percentage points either way. this may be a little different in this car due to the rwd only, instead of awd in many 911s . this does put most of the weight over the drive wheels for good launch traction, but with the amount of horsepower that this car produces, if you hang the back out a bit and give it too much gas, you could definetly end up facing the wrong direction. the z06, and corvettes in general usualy have weight distribution much closer to 50% front and rear. in most situations, this yields a more stable feeling to the automobile in cornering.
     
  9. Chickens beating Turkeys? That's insane. My Turkey will do 1/4 miles in 7 mins! And my turkey will lap the nurburgring in 5 days. My turkey will learn how to fly before your chicken laps the nurburgring.
     
  10. i ate my turnkey and now *YAWN* i am goin to , n
    a
    p......

    "SNORE"!<!-- Signature -->
     
  11. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Porscheman944</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Lingenfelter</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from 911Gt2</i>
    <b>Fu*k the Vett its a shitt*y car. American cars are sh*t. German car best cars ever made!</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Ummm you should get your head out of your ass lets go back umm to the 60's and 70's when Caddy was King or when the American's had there Big Blocks and Big power where was BMW,BENZ,FERRARI, and all them then they didn't dare come out to race the Big American Cars</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    good point</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Well yeah, except for the fact that it isn't a good point. Refer to the bottom of the first page.

    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from rixochet</i>
    <b>k2lu - Why look at supercars if you worry about gas mileage? Ls1 has very good mileage actually, and the ls1 is far more reliable than any car with boost...
    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    It's not so much the mileage, but the better engineering.
    The fact that the GT2 engine can be half the size of the ZO6's and still outlcass it, is a true indicator of magnificent German engineering.
    ... and I don't want to hear any crap about turbos being a way to 'cheat' or something for the GT2. As far as turbos go - they are part of the engine, and air is a hell of a lot cheaper than petrol; so leave that alone.
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  12. Umm...sorry dude..but if you haven't noticed, Turbos make your car eat alot more fuel.
    Take this Porsche, the engine is close to being like 1/2 to 3/4 of the size of the 5.7L rite..
    so explain why the Z06 has better fuel consumption numbers? =P

    Also, the GT2 is a factory race tuned cars with basically no limits except for emissions in North America and Europe...
    imagine a race-tuned road legal Vette...
    HP would be up in the 600hp range with the Engine running @ probably 4000-5000rpms.

    Now strap a turbo to the 5.7L and watch the efficiency drop to Lambo Range =P

    DA PUN<!-- Signature -->
     
  13. I respect the Z06 coz' its an american car that can run with the kings of supercar territory.....the europeans.

    personally, if i could only have 1 car in my garage, it'll be the Z06, coz u can drive the thing everyday......but if i wanted a "fun", super hot car....id go with the GT2 definitely.

    you gotta' give the americans credit for the Z06...its quite possibly the best thing they came up with thses past several years.<!-- Signature -->
     
  14. Lol...Yep.
    The Z06 is sweet.
    Me been hearing rumours of a new Vette coming soon though.
    They claim it to be a best ever car =)

    DA PUN<!-- Signature -->
     
  15. As far as fuel economy goes, I would like to know where the figures come from, as it has been my expreience here in Australia that pretty much every V8 that is put against Porsche's turbo six has eaten substantially more fuel in the same conditions.
    There is one thing I have noticed though, some people here are comparing the GT2 with things like Viper Hennessey and others. Fairs fair - compare stock cars with stock cars and modified cars with modified cars. We have a stock car here in the GT2 that is nothing short of brilliant out of the box (sub 12 down the 1/4!!) so Hennessey, Callaway, Saleen etc. not applicable. If you want to use them then grab a Gemballa, Techart or RUF.
    In regards to people who think that engineering isn't all that important, is it going to be important in 20 years when the 911 is going to be in much better shape than your 'Vette? Porsche's are renowned for their longevity.
    Turbo's. Since when did strapping one or two of these devices on a car equate to CHEAT! American performance cars share one thing in common - not enough power? More cubes. Take the offensive engine in the Viper for example. Yes, Porsche did use V8's in the 928 series but they were smaller than American V8's and they are no longer used. Porsche (and other companies) achieve their power gains in different ways (like, smaller engines with a blower or two). SO for those whinging about it not being fair - bugger off.
    But, in the end, what does it matter? There are people here whom I could never convince the GT2 is the better car, just like I will never be convinced it isn't. Each to their own.
     
  16. Hmmmm..true.
    I guess it's all about what you're looking for in a car. Some people are tight on cash and like to be economical.

    But I have to admit this car is just sweet =)
    And the Z06 is a cheaper but just as sweet =)
    The Supra..I dunno..sorta looks like a 959 ripoff?

    DA PUN<!-- Signature -->
     
  17. Sorry - yes a turbo makes your car eat more fuel. But it's better than just having a huge engine - to achieve the same acceleration, speed, etc... plus it makes a cool noise! :p

    Even though it does eat more petrol, it's still proof of better engineering, and efficiency.
    <!-- Signature -->
     
  18. Regarding the price on this, how much do you think is in the profit margin, I've heard a few times that Porsche has about a 10% profit margin, which is the envy of other performance makers. Any facts?<!-- Signature -->
     
  19. as for cubes vs turbos, there are different means to the same end, but look at my signiture, that 3.6L Flat 6 will top out power wise way before the 5.7 L does, turbos no turbos it doesnt matter. There is a reason that the highest horsepower ICE (internal combustion engine) cars in the world are high displacement, they also use forced induction and that is the point. A NA powered high displacement motor would top out where a low disp Forced inductionmotor would, and then you add forced inductions and voila!!!

    My point is that just because the corvett doesnt have a 2.01 L quad turboed 6ohc super tech motor doesnt meant that it was badly engingeered, nor does it meant that is was engineer any better. Just that it is different for different purposes, and the sheer fact that it is even a comparison against a 180000 porsche, and comes close to beating it, that says something. But its ok it is just bad engineering right? (sarcasm if you couldnt tell)

    And tell if it is bad engineering why the C5R using similiar OHV pushrod technology and engineering consistantly kicks ass on the track? hmmmmm<!-- Signature -->
     
  20. I have a few things to talk about. Some of you people are just plain wrong, and it's pissing me off.

    First: The Z06 does not use the LS1 block. It uses the LS6. Not once in all the posts in this topic has anyone got that right. The LS6 is essentially a new engine. It has only ever been used in the Z06. Aside from pushrods, the engine is most advanced example of engineering GM has produced to date. It is more efficient and powerful than the Northstars used in Cadillac, so don't even try to bring that up.

    As a side note, the Cien is really not an American car. It was designed in Italy, and all the production and development is done in Britain.

    Second: You're all arguing about the comparisons of performance between these two cars. I may have missed the point, but I think that 'My911Turbo' wasn't trying to compare the cars, but to illustrate that Americans have too much patriotism when it comes to cars. To quote:

    "What strikes me though is that despite the price difference, there seems to be a lot of people on this board who, if the cars were the same price, would take the Z06 anyway, despite it being the inferior machine."

    That, I think, was his main point.

    Third: The Z06 is nearly as balanced, if not moreso than any Porsche built thus far. The Z06's transmission is mounted in the rear of the car, and connects directly to the rear axle. For those of you who didn't know, this give the car and exact weight distribution of 50\50.

    Fourth: No matter what you say, the GT2 is faster than the Z06. No amount of arguing will change that. But the GT2 is more than twice the price. No amount of arguing will change that. However, for the extra money that Porsche charges, you get the culmunation of all the experience and technology aquired by a manufacturer that has done nothing but design high performance cars for the last 50 years. But, who the hell has $170,000?!!

    Fifth: Those of you who say that these to cars are not comparable are wrong. Yes, for comsumer sale they are slated for completely different target demographics, and yes the price difference segregates the class of those out to buy a sports car. But, on the track these two are going head to head. The 911 GT2 and the C5-R race in the same class in GT Cup racing, and Le Mans.

    Sixth: Where in the name of God's left nut did this talk about the Supra come from? The Supra, although a fine car, does not even compare to the Z06 or the GT2. Yes, it can be tuned to the point where it can compete, but so can a lot of cars. If you have enough cash, you can tune a Neon to compete with these cars. Stock vs. stock, the Supra is way out of its league.

    Just a few points I felt needed to be made.

    Cheers!
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  21. Whos idea was it to start compairing the Z06 and the GT2? I like both cars, a lot. Shouldnt the GT2 be compaired to cars like Ferraris and such? And shouldnt the Z06 be going up against cars in its price range, like the M3?

    Yeah, the Z06 is a nice car, but my accord could almost keep up with it, but if you spent the money you had left over on mods it could!

    Seriously, whoever started this comparison in the beginning should be slapped if they havent already slapped themselves.

    -retsmah
     
  22. People used to think that hp/liter represented efficiency and engineering prowess, but that's old thinking. The Corvette's combination of 405 hp and 28 mpg is an engineering achievement that I'm sure is highly respected by Porsche's engineers. No turbo-lag is also a major plus. Turbo-lag doesn't show up at the drag strip but it DOES show up on a road course. Think about that when you compare the acceleration times of these two cars. The Corvette's performance in handling tests is also very close to the Porsche's. The Porsche would probably beat the Corvette on a road course, probably. There are only two areas where there is a huge difference between these two cars. One is price ofcourse, and the other is styling. The Corvette looks like it was designed to be a sportscar from the beginning because it was. The Porsche looks like a 65 year old economy car with 65 years worth of modifications because it is. It hurts my eyes, and that's not coming from a big fan of American cars. I drive an MR2. If people were comparing my MR2 to a car one third the price, I'd be mighty embarassed.
     
  23. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Josh6474</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from SuPERkAJ</i>
    <b>Hehe what can I say... the Skyline would own the Z06 on a track.

    I dont even wanna give good reasons, that is just fact!

    Just as the Z06 beats the Skyline in looks..... its just like that!</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Would you care to explain how the underpowered, overweight Skyline would beat a Z06 on a track? Or anywhere for that matter.

    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    American cars usually have crappy handling.<!-- Signature -->
     
  24. Excellent post, mpg. In the world of engineering, you set a target (in this case an engine with power output around 400 hp). You make different experiments, measure the outcome and if tied, the simplest solution is the best (in this case the simplest is also better by the numbers, as the LS6 is more fuel efficient). Porsche uses this (worse) technology however, as they have the tooling and production lines for smaller engines and more importantly, because of tradition. Also, in racing applications, the displacement is often limited, so this is where the hp/liter finally starts to mean something and this form of small engine tradition becomes actually useful.

    There was a test in C&D where 911 Turbo was beaten on track by a Z06. GT2 is a suped up 911T so in turn itŽs probably a tad faster than the Z06. Funny note about a Porsche being an economy car of 65 years of evolution - itŽs true, as the Porsche was evolved from the good ole Volkswagen Beetle, which is rear-mounted boxer engined family car (info for those who didnŽt know).

    Getting back to original topic, all the patriotism aside, as IŽm from Northern Europe: Even if money was no object, or the GT2 was the same price as the Z06, I would first take the Z06. 1) GT2 looks like an egg on wheels. 2) I donŽt want to be associated with the yuppie guys in Armani suits. 3) Z06 can also be a comfy ride whereas GT2 is more an all-out racecar. 4) Where I live, Porsches are more common than the Vettes (Porsches are still considered more prestigeous, however).

    But if the money was no object, why not buy both?
     
  25. Excellent post, mpg. In the world of engineering, you set a target (in this case an engine with power output around 400 hp). You make different experiments, measure the outcome and if tied, the simplest solution is the best (in this case the simplest is also better by the numbers, as the LS6 is more fuel efficient). Porsche uses this (worse) technology however, as they have the tooling and production lines for smaller engines and more importantly, because of tradition. Also, in racing applications, the displacement is often limited, so this is where the hp/liter finally starts to mean something and this form of small engine tradition becomes actually useful.

    There was a test in C&D where 911 Turbo was beaten on track by a Z06. GT2 is a suped up 911T so in turn itŽs probably a tad faster than the Z06. Funny note about a Porsche being an economy car of 65 years of evolution - itŽs true, as the Porsche was evolved from the good ole Volkswagen Beetle, which is rear-mounted boxer engined family car (info for those who didnŽt know).

    Getting back to original topic, all the patriotism aside, as IŽm from Northern Europe: Even if money was no object, or the GT2 was the same price as the Z06, I would first take the Z06. 1) GT2 looks like an egg on wheels. 2) I donŽt want to be associated with the yuppie guys in Armani suits. 3) Z06 can also be a comfy ride whereas GT2 is more an all-out racecar. 4) Where I live, Porsches are more common than the Vettes (Porsches are still considered more prestigeous, however).

    But if the money was no object, why not buy both?

    PS. LS6 and LS1 differences are in the valvetrain, where LS6 has a lightened one. Block is the same.
     

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