Re: *sigh* Americans...

Discussion in '2002 Porsche 911 GT2' started by Josh427, Aug 10, 2002.

  1. Excellent post, mpg. In the world of engineering, you set a target (in this case an engine with power output around 400 hp). You make different experiments, measure the outcome and if tied, the simplest solution is the best (in this case the simplest is also better by the numbers, as the LS6 is far more fuel efficient). Porsche uses this (worse) technology however, as they have the tooling and production lines for smaller engines and more importantly, because of tradition. Also, in racing applications, the displacement is often limited, so this is where the hp/liter finally starts to mean something and this form of small engine tradition becomes actually useful. But whatŽs the "actual usefulness" of a racing application?

    There was a test in C&D where 911 Turbo was beaten on track by a Z06. GT2 is a suped up 911T so in turn itŽs probably a tad faster than the Z06. Funny note about a Porsche being an economy car of 65 years of evolution - itŽs true, as the Porsche was evolved from the good ole Volkswagen Beetle, which is rear-mounted boxer engined family car (info for those who didnŽt know).

    Getting back to original topic, all the patriotism aside, as IŽm from Northern Europe: Even if money was no object, or the GT2 was the same price as the Z06, I would first take the Z06. 1) GT2 looks like an egg on wheels. 2) I donŽt want to be associated with the yuppie guys in Armani suits. 3) Z06 can also be a comfy ride whereas GT2 is more an all-out racecar. 4) Where I live, Porsches are more common than the Vettes (Porsches are still considered more prestigeous, however).

    But if the money was no object, why not buy both?

    PS. LS6 and LS1 differences are in the valvetrain, where LS6 has a lightened one. Block is the same.
     
  2. There are a lot of people I know whom tease me about Porsche's being glorified VW's cause they know Porsche's are my favourite car.
    So, let's get this out of the way, Porsche did share it's origins with VW, I am not denying that, nor am I denying that some of the major components (excl. engine, suspension etc.) of it's upcomming Cayenne 4WD are shared with VW's version.
    HOWEVER, to say that a Porsche is a fancy VW really shows a mark of ignorance among those who hold that opinion. It's as if you are grappling at straws, attempting to make your case. Doesn't work.
    Second, some of you may be unaware but the only origional component the current 911 shares with the first model is the badge, everything else is new. Yes, the engine is still a flat 6 in the rear, it always will be - but it is a new engine. If you are going to say the current 911 is merely an evolution and nothing really worth that much then you can do the same with your Corvette.
    I have no problems with people being patriotic, but if it gets in the way of your judgement on a car (ie. I will only consider an American car, or whatever country you are from) then I seriously think you have taken it a bit too far. If it is the best car for what you are after then great, a nice coincedence.
    Those arguing about engineering. When I talk about that, I am referring to the entire car, front to rear, down to the smallest nut and washer. This is something that Porsche do a brilliant job of. American cars I have seen and read about leave a lot to be desired in this area (particularly fit and finish). I am sure there are exceptions to the rule - is the Z06 one of them?
    If it were my money I wouldn't get a GT2, here in Australia it is a full $100,000 Australian dollars over the standard Turbo, which I would buy and pocket the change.
     
  3. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from DiecastDomain</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from My911Turbo</i>
    <b>What can I say?
    There are far too many people around here who need to get their hands off it. In one corner we have one of the worlds greatest cars - a GT, sports car and supercar all in one. It has a twin turbo 3.6lt twin turbo flat 6 and it comes from a brand that is recognised all over the world.
    In the other corner we have our 'Vette Z06 a great car with a 5.7lt V8, naturally aspirated and the figures to back it up.
    What strikes me though is that despite the price difference, there seems to be a lot of people on this board who, if the cars were the same price, would take the Z06 anyway, despite it being the inferior machine.
    I make no apologies for saying it's inferior because, well, it is. Patriotism is entered into these discussions far too much and it blinds what MIGHT otherwise be good, automotive judgement.
    Here in Australia we don't get 'Vette's unless they are private imports but GT2's do come our way.
    We have our own cars made here that use the LS1 (look up HSV's on this site) and they are great cars but no-on here presumes them to be better than Porsche's.
    One final thing: just because the GT2 isn't using the antique, pushrod engine design, doesn't mean it's a girls car - this is a man's machine, a thoroughbred through and through - Porsche (and most other automotive companies) have just discovered what you Americans have either missed or rejected - intelligent, technical engine design.
    You can argue the point if you wish (you'll lose) but in the end it's results that tell the story - and the GT2 delivers them everywhere - in spades.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    "FIRST POST, FIRST STRIKE!!"

    If you've come here to compare, please DO NOT compare apples to oranges. Your post made no sense.
    The Z06 is an American Sports car, the 911 GT2 is an exotic racer. NOT in the same class (price or otherwise) even though I still think that the Z06 would lose, but give the GT2 a run for it's money. It would have to work at it's victory. It would not easily win.

    It is a well known fact that vehicles overseas need the turbos, superchargers, & so on to even keep up with your so called "antique, pushrod engine design". DOES NOT say much for your "Man's machine".

    Have some respect.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Look he is just saying what all the others are bagging, everyone else is comparing the Z06 to everything and bagging the GT2. He has a point about the pushrod, but I don't understand why you said "It is a well known fact that vehicles overseas need the turbos, superchargers..." thats not all true. First off the Porsche is a six, the vette a V8. Now Porsche I am sure could build a much more superior v8 to the LS6. Another thing BMW rarely use turbos and Superchargers yet they seem to go pretty well, i think the M5 is 298kw out of a 5.0 l engine (off the top of my head). How about we forget the argument and say they are both great cars. Each in their own class.<!-- Signature -->
     
  4. i agree with 10465 just accept that these are both sh$t hot cars


    GOD created Sh&t Ford made it move<!-- Signature -->
     
  5. Excellent post, mpg. In the world of engineering, you set a target (in this case an engine with power output around 400 hp). You make different experiments, measure the outcome and if tied, the simplest solution is the best (in this case the simplest is also better by the numbers, as the LS6 is far more fuel efficient). Porsche uses this (worse) technology however, as they have the tooling and production lines for smaller engines and more importantly, because of tradition. Also, in racing applications, the displacement is often limited, so this is where the hp/liter finally starts to mean something and this form of small engine tradition becomes actually useful. But whatŽs the "actual usefulness" of a racing application?

    There was a test in C&D where 911 Turbo was beaten on track by a Z06. GT2 is a suped up 911T so in turn itŽs probably a tad faster than the Z06. Funny note about a Porsche being an economy car of 65 years of evolution - itŽs true, as the Porsche was evolved from the good ole Volkswagen Beetle, which is rear-mounted boxer engined family car (info for those who didnŽt know).

    Getting back to original topic, all the patriotism aside, as IŽm from Northern Europe: Even if money was no object, or the GT2 was the same price as the Z06, I would first take the Z06. 1) GT2 looks like an egg on wheels. 2) I donŽt want to be associated with the yuppie guys in Armani suits. 3) Z06 can also be a comfy ride whereas GT2 is more an all-out racecar. 4) Where I live, Porsches (in general) are much more common than the Vettes (Porsches are still considered more prestigeous, however).

    But if the money was no object, why not buy both?

    PS. LS6 and LS1 differences are in the valvetrain, where LS6 has a lightened one. Block is the same.
     
  6. Just a simple post

    I personally dont think you should be comparing the vette with the porsche, the sole reason is the price range. With the Porsche you are not just paying for performance, you are paying for prestige and the little things that make Porsche so great, its like trying to compare k-mart and armani - A white T-shirt may last the same, but the two are not for the same people. Also note that in Europe, a porsche does not cost $250k or whatever it is in USA, to buy - for christ sakes a Merc S class is a taxi over there!

    Im sorry to degrade Porsche and Vette to simply T-shirts, but people seem to be confused by the comparison.

    If you want a fairer comparison, perhaps you should compare the vette to the Euro Porsche sold.<!-- Signature -->
     
  7. what i want to say is that for someone to like their car sure fine, but all the american boys seem not to know alot about what they are talking about it is simple, the gt2 is not a better car than the z06, but the z06 is definately not a better car than the gt2, they are in different fields,the z06 is the king of its class, but that is a class lower than that of the gt2. Stop talking about feul consumption cause both cars if u bought them it wouldnt be cause of a good feul consumption rate. And others stop talking about low and high tech cause it means nothing, strap on the same turbos that the gt2 has on the z06, and the z06 would definately faster than the porche. but so would any other v8 with those turbos, these are two great cars that both deserve respect, but dont for one thing tell me that if you could have any car u would have a z06, cause if u did u would have to be screwed in the head, as if u wouldnt take a dodge viper, or a mclaren f1 or a bugatti veryon, grow up and stop your bickering
     
  8. "American cars I have seen and read about leave a lot to be desired in this area (particularly fit and finish). "

    I bet the interior on the corvette isnt as nicely done as the GT2... thats part of the price difference thing, not an engineering thing. The people who designed the corvettes are obviously good engineers, the problem isnt that they cant design a good fitting interior, its that they had to do it in a 50,000 dollar car. nicer little details cost more money, and more money going to that stuff takes away money from the performance side of the car, which isnt what they are going for.

    Again, a corvette shouldnt be compaired to a GT2.

    -retsmah
     
  9. It's true that patriotism is a bias, but snobbery is a much uglier bias. There are legitimate reasons for saying that the Porsche is superior to the Corvette, but it's really a matter of opinion. If a person believes that the Porsche is superior, I'm not going to assume that they are being snobby. Please don't assume that my reasoning is patriotic when I say that the Corvette is superior regardless of price. Maybe I'm reading this website incorrectly, but it seems odd that My911Turbo would say that he didn't start this argument.
     
  10. Almost everyone in this forum has excellent points, but I feel that the bottom line is pretty clear and simple. These cars are JUST IN DIFFERENT realms. A well designed affordable sports car should NOT be compared to a "hyper-exotic" (Rd & Trk), extremely high-tech machine. Comparing their prices is equally as pointless. Face it, anyone with half a brain wouldnt compare these cars in a documented roadtest, so why are we even talking about this? Z06 vs 911TT makes MUCH more sense.

    Technology = Speed
     
  11. My911Turbo - Hmm... To quote your words a little bit from the latest post:

    "Those arguing about engineering. When I talk about that, I am referring to the entire car, front to rear, down to the smallest nut and washer."

    Yet in your first post you said:

    "GT2 isn't using the antique, pushrod engine design" "Porsche (and most other automotive companies) have just discovered what you Americans have either missed or rejected - intelligent, technical engine design."

    Your main grudge against Corvette seemed to be the engine design - which, however, on the closer look turns upside down. From purely engineering standpoint, Corvette engine is better design than the PorscheŽs. It delivers the power with better torque curve, fuel efficiency and simpler construction. Yes, itŽs big, itŽs pushrod, itŽs V8. And itŽs better.

    And now the issue has come down to "interior details & others". Do you really think that interior detailing is the true mark of an engineering prowess? It is part of it, true. But myself iŽm not too keen on checking the cloth linings with magnifying glass to make these assumptions. How do you measure it exactly? WhatŽs it worth? TheyŽre both nice anyway. "Car is better because of the 6% better cloth linings and the 9% less use of plastic in the cockpit area" doesnŽt sound too good. What about accessories, i.e. the HUD system. ArenŽt they more relevant?

    WhatŽs left of your original statement of Corvette being an "inferior machine" is the prestige, which Porsche has loads of. IŽm not too keen also on this, as these matters are so often based on snobbery and pure ignorance, spewed by people who have contributed nothing on the area of engineering, let alone in the area of automotive engineering. I fully agree that the 911 is no longer a VW Beetle. Snobs and ignorant people however could well say that thus Porsche in terms of heritage has shit between itŽs toes - I donŽt, as I respect both VW and the Beetle (having owned one actually, as well as 911) as much as I respect Porsche.
     
  12. My911turbo, American engines have a tradition of being big, as it was the only country after WWII, whose citizens could really afford big cars with relatively good performance, and the gasoline this concept consumed. These big cars needed engines of 300-400 hp to move quickly, so their engines were also built big, 6-7 liters. Europeans and the Japanese could only afford small cars with small engines, which accordingly were better on gas. Better on gas due to they were lighter and less powerful, not because they were technologically more advanced. Usually on the contrary, in fact. And the American engines were big, as it was (and still is) better to make reliable power by simply increasing the displacement.

    This is still seen today - Americans have the capabilities (production lines and tooling) to cheaply mass produce large engines, which are very powerful by nature. European / Japanese have the basic tooling for smaller engines, so theyŽve had to made their affordable sport versions rather artificially from the econo blocks by revving them up, or lately adding them turbos. And itŽs evident, that even today itŽs better to choose the engine size according to the power. This is clearly seen from the numbers, which have been discussed previously. And by the way, the numbers are accurate enough, IŽve checked other resources than this site as well. Just that they donŽt fit to prejudgement, doesnŽt make them untrue.

    Yes, Mitsu Evo can probably be modded to outperform a stock Vette for the less price, though simultaneously throwing away the factory guarantees, compromising the reliability and still well possibly failing to get the wanted results in many instances. And youŽd still be driving a bore-looking Lancer with ricey bodykit, but oh well, itŽs a matter of taste. Interesting, however, have you thought that if the modded Evo outperforms the stock Vette, it also outperforms the GT2. And with less than VetteŽs price. If it compromises the Vette, doesnŽt it make the GT2 and other "true" supercars as the utter pieces of crap?
     
  13. My911turbo, American engines have a tradition of being big, as it was the only country after WWII, whose citizens could really afford big cars with relatively good performance, and the gasoline this concept consumed. These big cars needed engines of 300-400 hp to move quickly, so their engines were also built big, 6-7 liters. Europeans and the Japanese could only afford small cars with small engines, which accordingly were better on gas. Better on gas due to they were lighter and less powerful, not because they were technologically more advanced. Usually on the contrary, in fact. And the American engines were big, as it was (and still is) better to make reliable and usable power by simply increasing the displacement.

    This is still seen today - Americans have the capabilities (production lines and tooling) to cheaply mass produce large engines, which are very powerful by nature. European / Japanese have the basic tooling for smaller engines, so theyŽve had to made their affordable sport versions rather artificially from the econo blocks by revving them up, or lately by adding them turbos. And itŽs evident, that even today itŽs better to choose the engine size according to the power. This is clearly seen from the numbers, which have been discussed previously. And by the way, the numbers are accurate enough, IŽve checked other resources than this site as well. Just that they donŽt fit to your prejudgement, doesnŽt make them untrue.

    Yes, a Mitsu Evo can probably be modded to outperform a stock Vette for the less price, though simultaneously throwing away the factory guarantees, compromising the reliability and still well possibly failing to get the wanted results in many instances. And youŽd still be driving a bore-looking Lancer with ricey bodykit, but oh well, itŽs a matter of taste. Interesting, however, have you thought that if the modded Evo outperforms the stock Vette, it also outperforms the GT2. And with less than VetteŽs price. If it compromises the Vette, doesnŽt it, by that definition, make the GT2 and other "true" supercars as the uttermost pieces of crap?
     
  14. Some of the people in this forum are saying that the Supra is a better car. Are they right? Are they Japanese people who are blinded by patriotism? Maybe it's a legitimate difference of opinion.<!-- Signature -->
     
  15. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from NismoMasta</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from DiecastDomain</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from My911Turbo</i>
    <b>What can I say?
    There are far too many people around here who need to get their hands off it. In one corner we have one of the worlds greatest cars - a GT, sports car and supercar all in one. It has a twin turbo 3.6lt twin turbo flat 6 and it comes from a brand that is recognised all over the world.
    In the other corner we have our 'Vette Z06 a great car with a 5.7lt V8, naturally aspirated and the figures to back it up.
    What strikes me though is that despite the price difference, there seems to be a lot of people on this board who, if the cars were the same price, would take the Z06 anyway, despite it being the inferior machine.
    I make no apologies for saying it's inferior because, well, it is. Patriotism is entered into these discussions far too much and it blinds what MIGHT otherwise be good, automotive judgement.
    Here in Australia we don't get 'Vette's unless they are private imports but GT2's do come our way.
    We have our own cars made here that use the LS1 (look up HSV's on this site) and they are great cars but no-on here presumes them to be better than Porsche's.
    One final thing: just because the GT2 isn't using the antique, pushrod engine design, doesn't mean it's a girls car - this is a man's machine, a thoroughbred through and through - Porsche (and most other automotive companies) have just discovered what you Americans have either missed or rejected - intelligent, technical engine design.
    You can argue the point if you wish (you'll lose) but in the end it's results that tell the story - and the GT2 delivers them everywhere - in spades.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    "FIRST POST, FIRST STRIKE!!"

    If you've come here to compare, please DO NOT compare apples to oranges. Your post made no sense.
    The Z06 is an American Sports car, the 911 GT2 is an exotic racer. NOT in the same class (price or otherwise) even though I still think that the Z06 would lose, but give the GT2 a run for it's money. It would have to work at it's victory. It would not easily win.

    It is a well known fact that vehicles overseas need the turbos, superchargers, & so on to even keep up with your so called "antique, pushrod engine design". DOES NOT say much for your "Man's machine".

    Have some respect.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Its a common defensive trick to turn a arguement around backwards when your on the side that the facts don't back you up.

    Yes a 3.6 litre quad cam engine needs turbos or hard tuning to keep up with a 'antique pushrod' 5.7 V8...

    .. or wait... is it that the V8 needs to be 5.7 litres to keep up with a high tech 3.6 turbo? Hmm 3.6 litre pushrod would be PITYFULL

    Your right, if you put the same technology, build quality and workmanship into a 5.7 litre V8 it would be damn fast - however it would cost MUCH MORE, because there is alot more engine and car to work up.

    "It would have to work at it's victory. It would not easily win."
    Logically its the other way around, the winning GT2 would do so effortlessly - its a superior drivers car with lots of handling aids -the Z06 being slower and less stable would have to work hard in the hands of a capable driver to just keep up!!!

    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    so youre saying that the GT3 Porsche's top of the line n/a car is pityful, that car would absolutely anhialate the Z06 and in terms of looks, that GT3 is damn sexy, the interior is mint, in the z06's case its PLASTIC, the GT3 came extremely close to the 911 turbo's time on that famous german track (cant remember which one) and still came below the Z06's time and the 360 modena. so plz dont ever put anything negative and the word porsche in the same sentance THEY JUST DONT GO.
     
  16. Dear shefx and NismoMasta
    There are plenty of negative things to say about Porsches:
    1.) Turbo engines have poor throttle response. The F1 boys used to say that 500 normally aspirated hp was worth 600 turbo hp. Even more at Monaco. Any engineer in any country will tell you that added complexity isn't necessarily a good thing.
    2.) Turbo engines are thirsty. I realize that most sportscar enthusiasts don't care about the environment, but it's a much better measure of engineering prowess than fit and finish. It also matters in racing.
    3.) Arch shaped cars have bad aerodynamics. If Bernoulli's Principle is wrong, then how do airplanes fly?
    4.) 63% of the weight on the rear wheels adds up to danger. Purpose built race cars are almost always midengine, not rear engine. Enzo Ferrari didn't even think that midengine cars belonged on the road.
    5.) It's tall.
    6.) A shorter wheelbase REDUCES stability.
    7.) If you don't believe 1 through 6, then have a look at the Carrera GT. Porsche is finally showing what they've always been capable of. They're building a road car that matches the caliber of their race cars. The only reason they didn't do it sooner is that Porschephiles have always enjoyed the nostalgia of "the people's car". They tried to break away from that with the 928, which was the only thoroughbred that Porsche ever built. It was 100% Porsche but the consumers rejected it because it was untraditional. Let's hope they have better luck with the Carrera GT. It's a beautiful car. Hopefully Porschephiles can finally see past "the people's car". I know Porsche can.

    P.S. If you examine all the data on these two cars, you'll see how foolhardy it is to try to predict which one would win on the track. Since the GT2 is intended for the track, wouldn't it be more fair to compare it to a Z06 with minor suspension mods?<!-- Signature -->
     
  17. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from RobertT</i>
    <b>Josh, the fact is that making a stronger engine smaller is art. No american ; "Bigger is better" Well you get more power by having a V8, but Porsche is the only one who has remained to show the rest of the world what they can do. Mercedes and BMW are using V8's now to sell better, but Porsche's have always always, had straight sixes, that's fact. If a Porsche doesn't beat a vette or a viper in performance, it beats them in style, luxury, design and usergroup. I would laugh so badly if I would see a business man dressed in an Armani drive a tuned Viper. See that's my point.

    *doesn't work huh?*</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Business men in Armani suits are the only people who could afford a tuned Viper.<!-- Signature -->
     
  18. My911Turbo - Hmm... To quote your words a little bit from the latest post:

    "Those arguing about engineering. When I talk about that, I am referring to the entire car, front to rear, down to the smallest nut and washer."

    Yet in your first post you said:

    "GT2 isn't using the antique, pushrod engine design" "Porsche (and most other automotive companies) have just discovered what you Americans have either missed or rejected - intelligent, technical engine design."

    Your main grudge against Corvette seemed to be the engine design - which, however, on the closer look turns upside down. From purely engineering standpoint, Corvette engine is better design than the PorscheŽs. It delivers the power with better torque curve, fuel efficiency and simpler construction. Yes, itŽs big, itŽs pushrod, itŽs V8. And itŽs better.

    And now the issue has come down to "interior details & others". Do you really think that interior detailing is the true mark of an engineering prowess? It is part of it, true. But myself iŽm not too keen on checking the cloth linings with magnifying glass to make these assumptions. How do you measure it exactly? WhatŽs it worth? TheyŽre both nice anyway. "Car is better because of the 6% better cloth linings and the 9% less use of plastic in the cockpit area" doesnŽt sound too good. What about accessories, i.e. the HUD system. ArenŽt they more relevant? Even when we are now forgetting the price difference completely, which, of course was one basis of our little comparison here.

    WhatŽs left of your original statement of Corvette being an "inferior machine" is the prestige, which Porsche has loads of. IŽm not too keen also on this, as these matters are so often based on snobbery and pure ignorance, spewed by people who have contributed nothing on the area of engineering, let alone in the area of automotive engineering. I fully agree that the 911 is no longer a VW Beetle. Snobs and ignorant people however could well say that thus Porsche in terms of heritage has shit between itŽs toes - I donŽt, as I respect both VW and the Beetle (having owned one actually, as well as 911) as much as I respect Porsche.
     
  19. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from 104625</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from DiecastDomain</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from My911Turbo</i>
    <b>What can I say?
    There are far too many people around here who need to get their hands off it. In one corner we have one of the worlds greatest cars - a GT, sports car and supercar all in one. It has a twin turbo 3.6lt twin turbo flat 6 and it comes from a brand that is recognised all over the world.
    In the other corner we have our 'Vette Z06 a great car with a 5.7lt V8, naturally aspirated and the figures to back it up.
    What strikes me though is that despite the price difference, there seems to be a lot of people on this board who, if the cars were the same price, would take the Z06 anyway, despite it being the inferior machine.
    I make no apologies for saying it's inferior because, well, it is. Patriotism is entered into these discussions far too much and it blinds what MIGHT otherwise be good, automotive judgement.
    Here in Australia we don't get 'Vette's unless they are private imports but GT2's do come our way.
    We have our own cars made here that use the LS1 (look up HSV's on this site) and they are great cars but no-on here presumes them to be better than Porsche's.
    One final thing: just because the GT2 isn't using the antique, pushrod engine design, doesn't mean it's a girls car - this is a man's machine, a thoroughbred through and through - Porsche (and most other automotive companies) have just discovered what you Americans have either missed or rejected - intelligent, technical engine design.
    You can argue the point if you wish (you'll lose) but in the end it's results that tell the story - and the GT2 delivers them everywhere - in spades.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    "FIRST POST, FIRST STRIKE!!"

    If you've come here to compare, please DO NOT compare apples to oranges. Your post made no sense.
    The Z06 is an American Sports car, the 911 GT2 is an exotic racer. NOT in the same class (price or otherwise) even though I still think that the Z06 would lose, but give the GT2 a run for it's money. It would have to work at it's victory. It would not easily win.

    It is a well known fact that vehicles overseas need the turbos, superchargers, & so on to even keep up with your so called "antique, pushrod engine design". DOES NOT say much for your "Man's machine".

    Have some respect.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Look he is just saying what all the others are bagging, everyone else is comparing the Z06 to everything and bagging the GT2. He has a point about the pushrod, but I don't understand why you said "It is a well known fact that vehicles overseas need the turbos, superchargers..." thats not all true. First off the Porsche is a six, the vette a V8. Now Porsche I am sure could build a much more superior v8 to the LS6. Another thing BMW rarely use turbos and Superchargers yet they seem to go pretty well, i think the M5 is 298kw out of a 5.0 l engine (off the top of my head). How about we forget the argument and say they are both great cars. Each in their own class.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    I did say that Euro engines need superchargers & turbos, but I did not say that ALL Euro cars. I understand that some Manufacturers do not put those "add ons" to their engines. It's a wonder why some people feel the need to compare American cars to Foreign cars. If you read my posts, my point was simply that I, me, myself, my opinion was that the GT2 was way overpriced for what you are getting. If I was going to pay in excess of $125000.00 more for a vehicle than let's say the Z06 which is an awesome car, I want a car that;
    has more than 55 horses under the hood
    has a better redline; 6750 for the GT2 compared to 6500 for the Z06
    0 to 60 in 3.9 seconds for the Z06 compared to 3.7(?) seconds for the GT2, AND naturally aspired,
    and above all that, the Z06 gets BETTER gas mileage!!

    Anyway, look I do not want to compare, these two vehicles are in different classes, but speaking money, there is no justification for me to go out & spend $125000.00 more for the GT2. Also, for the record, I love this GT2, I have a lot of respect for all car makers. I think that they do make their own breed of cars, that gives each maker their own signature. Why do I feel this way, because you are not a TRUE car enthusiast if you start saying this car sucks, this car is better than that one. A TRUE enthusiast will love ALL true exotic, muscle, American, Foreing cars that are produced by Manufacturers and I am a true car enthusiast. Now, these back yard mix master cars, well...
    ...I'll actually stop here.

    BTW, you are correct in saying forget about this argument & chalk it up as both of these cars being GREAT cars!!<!-- Signature -->
     
  20. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Josh6474</i>
    <b>Well for one thing the Corvette is a damn good sports car, no matter how much you guys hate large displacement V8's, the Z06 is one of the best performers doller for doller you will find anywhere. You have to respect the cheap speed of some American cars.

    That said, I would like to turn to the comment, "American cars just can't keep up with Europeans". Well, have you heard of a car called the GT40? It happens to be a extremely fast car, capable of wasting ferraris(with the exception of the F50, but come on, its 650 grand more expensive than the GT40, and even then, the GT40 isn't that far behind it) and porsches on the strip and on the track. Just try and get your facts straight guys.

    Anyways, this porsche is one hell of a car. Very nice, looks good. Porsche is one of the best car makers ever.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Great idea-compare a supercar from the 60's to one from the 90's and cite price as the older car's advantage. Smart.
     
  21. It seems a lot of people think I am a snob, arrogant, or both based on my opinion of the Corvette and the GT2.
    If that is the conclusion some of you wish to make then so be it, it's wrong, but you are entitled to your opinion.
    My first post about the definition of 'engineering' was limited to the car's engine - that was what I wanted to talk about but the discussion was upheld so I delved deeper into the term, it is not a turn-around. Engineering does apply to the whole car, that is fact. I am not restricitn it to the engine, nor the choice and use of materials inside the car. And by the way, since when has something like the panel fit and finish been something that costs milions to improve?
    Bearing, define 'better' in your argument. Big? Doesn't automatically mean better. Pushrod? I would argue the other way - otherwise, why would so many manufacturers adopt OHC? V8? Different means to the same end - doesn't mean better. Fuel efficiency? I have heard the Z06 is good in this area and better than the GT2 so I will grant you that, despite never having seen the figures for both cars and torque curve - show me the graphs.
    It seems that some think that the pushrod engine design is far less complicated than on overhead cam design and is thus more likely to break down. That is (a) a load of rubbish, whilst more parts does mean there are, by definition, more things that COULD go wrong, it does not mean they WILL go wrong. Secondly, how many extra parts exist in an OHC design as opposed to an OHV? You still have valves, springs, cam, chain or belt etc. Indeed, an OHC design LOSES the pushrods! You now have less parts. BUT! I hear some people say, there are more valves in an OHC design. Yes, there usually is, but, the only reason OHV designs run 2 valves per cylinder is because they can't run 3, 4 or 5 valves.
    I am not saying the Z06 is a bad car - I am an enthusiast not an idiot but I just downright do not believe the 'Vette is the better car.
    That is my opinion, you have yours - keep arguing if you want.
     
  22. The amount of crap being said in this forum is unbelievabel..
    stop comparing so different cars.
    You keep complaining about the price. What about Ferrai? not to mention Lamborghinis, or even Aston-Martins. The 911 Turbo compared to a Diablo is a much more comfortable car, much easier to live with, and it can easily be your everyday car. Besides, on real roads, with cracks, bumps and curves the 911 Turbo is actually faster the the Diablo. The GT2 beats the Diablo even on the race track. So why does the Diablo costs 300 grands and the GT2 180,000 and the 911 turbo 115,000? BECASUE. Those cars are made for people who can afford them. They don't give a F**k about the best deal out there. And the GT2 Is a better car than the Z06, it CAN be used daily with comfort and ease, it has better build quality and it performs better. All you guys whining about styling - Have you ever heard of TASTE?!?
    You can say you hate it, but don't put it into consideration in any comparison (BTW, I have asked about 30 people who can't even recognize a Porsche or a Vette and only 5 of them preferred the styling of the Vette...).
    One more thing:
    Porsche's largest market is the USA. That means that there are many many americans who love Porsche's. When you walk around in Barcelona, Prague and every other major eurpean city, you see a bunch of 911's, And yu rarely see a Crovette even though it's price is similar or cheaper. There's probably a reason why the only place where Corvettes really sell is the US, whereas Porsche succeeds worldwide, including the US.
    That's all.
    Thanks for your attention.

    P.S
    I LOVE the corvette. Especially those 60's ones. And Vettes are a better deal.
    But Porsche's are the better cars...
     
  23. Regards to the fit and finish question, as I tried to express previously, what is the exact difference between these two cars? How do you measure it? ThereŽs lot of talk about the difference, as you quoted some magazine, albeit not about the cars in question. Could it be, that itŽs as much of a myth as the vaunted German advantage in the engine compartment? How much do you value that in comparison with the accessories?

    Big, pushrod and V8 were meant as sarcastic comments. Those arenŽt exactly the trendiest words in modern automotive engineering, although they are again getting more hip. OHCs are used and better in smaller line-style engines, 4s and 6s (yes, also in American 4s and 6s). But when the engine block consists two parts, like in flat or V config, with pushrods you can still use just one camshaft in bottom valley and thus make the engine simpler, without using individual cam(s) on both halves.

    When I said better, I meant the overall accomplishing of the desired goal - combustion engine of 400+ hp. LS6 is simpler and more fuel efficient than the PorscheŽs flat 6. Torque curves for these engines are typical, NA engine produces torque through entire RPM, smaller turbo engine of similar power produces less torque on lower RPM until the turbos spool up, making the curve more edgy. Those mpg figures you see on this site are official test results from the US. AFAIK, they have a certain test procedure they run all the cars they sell and measure their fuel consumption.

    In machines, the less moving parts mean less breakdowns. ThatŽs just how it is, forget the widespread nationalist BS. ThereŽs insignificant difference between the western industrialized countries when it comes to basic mass produced machine parts like nuts, washers and bolts, or casting an engine block or a piston. Even a monkey can make them. Believe me, thereŽs been enough Günther products (as many as any others) falling apart in front of my eyes, that I give them just as much respect as gizmos from any other somewhat similar origin.
     
  24. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from K2lu</i>
    <b>Can we put this engine design thing to bed?

    Come on, people on these boards like to say how the ZO6 beat a 911 turbo and whatever, but it DOES use a crap-load more petrol doing it.

    Josh427 - what the HELL are you doing typing "EFFICIENT" when you're talking about American sports cars?!?!?

    I mean come on - as far as American engines are concerned, they are the engineering equivalent of lighting a fart: Effective, waste of fuel, there are better ways to achieve the same effect, and they're amusing to people that know better.

    Lingenfelter - that's nice; but we are not in the 60's or 70's anymore... and standard marketting rules dictate, that if American cars had been so good back then and were doing the job well enough, then BENZ, BMW, Ferrari and all of them would not have been able to get a foothold in the market... except, whoops - they did.
    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->Please repeat the GT2's highway mpg with me: twenty miles per gallon. The Corvette gets 28-30 genius.
     
  25. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from sparetire</i>
    <b>Technology also means needless sophistication in many cases. Essentially, the fewer moving parts, the less tendency toward failure from an engineering standpoint.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->Therefore making the engine more EFFICIENT, all you Boosties.
     

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