Re: *sigh* Americans...

Discussion in '2002 Porsche 911 GT2' started by Josh427, Aug 10, 2002.

  1. WW II huh?? you guys came in last of all. when you got bombed in pearl harbour by the japanese. everyone else was already at war before you even came to war. sure, you guys did help but the european allies won the war not the americans. get over it. this is off-topic but its my point of view from this ignorant comment. you know what else? it was the spanish that discovered the americas. what continent is spain on? europe. if they didnt discover america you would most likely be in canada or wherever your famely decsended from.
     
  2. I agree with you all the way!!


     
  3. You know, he's right. I love my Vette, but you can't compare a Vette, not even a Z06, to a car like the GT2. That's like comparing a Maybach to a Caddilac STS. Both great luxury cars, but worlds apart. I saw the GT2 at the autoshow, and this car oozes testosterone. So did the window stcker, at $265,000CDN. Thats almost 3.5 times the price of a Z06. Me personally, I'd take that money, buy a Z06, dump $75g into it, and still have over 100grand left over. Would I have a better car? No. But it would probably eat the GT2 alive on the track.
     
  4. Don't start WWIII in these forums please...
     
  5. This is crazy talk. Pure crazy talk. The corvette Z06 is a fantastic car...for the price. Sure it chalks up amazing acceleration figures, and it holds its own when it comes to handling. However, in the other corner we have a porsche. And not just any porsche, but a track-ready, blisteringly fast, 911 GT2. This car basically improves upon (performance only) possibly the worlds greatest sports car, the 911 turbo. Have you ever seen the interior of a corvette? My chevy venture had the same stereo face. the interior finishing is beyond poor, and the ride is beyond rough. Saying that had they put the same amount of money into the vette as the porsche, that it would be a better car completely defies all logic. Sure the saleen S7 is a fantastic car, but it costs $400 000, and requires 7.0L of engine displacement to make it go fast. And the S7 and GT2 are similar types of car. Comparing a z06 to Porsche 911 GT2, is like comparing cadillac deville DTS to a BMW M5 (the M5 is clearly the far greater machine). Yes, the vette is a great car for the money that it costs, but when stacked up against a GT2, it doesnt, and never will, even come close. so suck up your pride for a second, because if you had the money to be driving a 911 turbo, or GT2, im sure you wouldnt pass that up for a corvette z06.
     
  6. I can see you dong know much about cars. Now i like american cars. In fact i respect the corvette very much. I think for the money its a great car. But heres the problem. Americans dont respect their obviously more talented european counterparts in the automotive industry. Where you say the rest of world have to resort to forced induction to keep up with push-rod, well my friend you are far mistaken.
    360 Modena - Naturally aspirated - 3.6 L v-8 - 400 horsepower - 111 bhp/L
    BMW M5 - Naturally aspirated - 5.0L v-8 - 394 Horsepower - 78.8 bhp/L
    Lamborghini Murcielago - Naturally aspirated - 6.2 L v-12 - 575 Bhp - 93.67 bhp/L
    BMW 745i - Naturally aspirated - 4.4 L v-8 - 324 horsepower - 75.72 bhp/L
    Nissan 350Z - Naturally aspirated - 3.5L VQ35 v-6 - 287 horsepower - 80.05 bhp/L
    and heres the kicker
    Honda S2000 - 2.0L I-4 - 240 horsepower - 120 bhp/L

    Lets look at some american counterparts
    Dodge viper SRT-10 - 8.3L !!! v-10 - 500 bhp - 60.42 bhp/L
    Corvette z06 - 5.7L v-8 - 400 bhp - 71.49 bhp/L

    Heres possibly the most efficient american naturally aspirated engine, the saleen S7, it has a 7.0L 550 horsepower v-10 engine, for a very respectable 78.56 bhp/L, however, the car costs $400 000.

    So why dont you quit while you are behind, and suck up your pride. For SVT mustang cobra, uses a supercharger. The Jaguar (owned by ford) s-type R, uses once again a supercharger. The new Dodge Magnum SRT-8 has 430 horsepower, supercharged. I find nothing wrong with forced induction. Hell if you can make an efficient engine, with lots of power using it, good for you. But if you want to start seeing who can make better naturally aspirated engines, look no further then across the atlantic. The numbers above clearly prove it. Heck my hyundai elantra has a class leading 140 horsepower 2.0l I-4. When i told the chevy salesman that was trying to sell me a cavalier that, he thought i was lying (yes i know the cavalier ecotec engine has 140 horsepower). dont get me wrong, teh american auto industry is doing great work these days, adn i really like their concepts (shame theyll never make it to production as good as the concepts), but just get the realisation in your head, that the corvette z06 is far from the ultimate sports car.
     
  7. The Saleen S7 has a V8. I like your point except that I think it doesn't matter if the car is American or European because each have there goods and bads.
     
  8. I've had all I can takes, and I can't takes no more. Sorry about this long post, but, FLAME ON.

    "I can see you dong know much about cars. Now i like american cars. In fact i respect the corvette very much."

    I can see that you "dong"(rhymes with "wrong"...sorry to trash on a typo, but...oh well, I'm a newbie)know much about America's "old-tech poorly engineered" vehicles that OWN your wanking Euro cars. The standard vette is a fun car to own; it's great one for playing with the Euro "supercars". Too bad the Euros are sore losers.

    Many of the Ferrari-club owned tracks wouldn't allow the C5 Z06 on their tracks within months of its introduction, after they found out that "poorly-engineered American rubbish" out-accelerated, out-cornered, out-performed, and OWNED their "superior supercars". I can only imagine the fetal position they have assumed with the C6 Z06. The daylight is opening the eyes of overspenders to what they paid dearly to own. A NAME. It hurst...excuse me, HURTS, don't it.

    And don't go off on the "my-car-is-prettier-than-your-car" rant.The last sexually provocative Ferrari in my book was the 308GTB/GTSI (bless you, Pininfarina), and the owner of said sex-toy who foolishly tried to play tag with my mildly modified 1976 Chevy Camaro (yes, a'76 Camaro, very heavy car, a "boy-toy", and a poorly engineered piece of crap, even by American standards) watched my taillights in the straights and the curves. Yes, he gave up the game when it got unfair (after 3 head-to-head pummelings). Wow, a $4000 (mods included) piece-of-crap (self-admitted) owned him.

    Said Ferrari had great curves and a sexy body; I wouldn't mind owning one (and being able to afford a mechanic to keep it running, especially the "superior" but tempermental electrical system). Call me crazy, but I just get off on the rush of a fast vehicle more than an ego-stoking name with a bloated pricetag.

    You might also ask yourself why Ferrari used the Turbo-Hydromatic 400 transmission for so many years also. Jeepers, an American piece of crap in such high-end vehicles. It makes you wonder...

    "I think for the money its a great car. But heres the problem. Americans dont respect their obviously more talented european counterparts in the automotive industry."

    Yeah, $65,000 to create chaos in the $200K plus universe.

    Gee whiz, our engineers are not up to snuff? How do they make a pathetic push-rod V8 trash your superior-engineered DOHC forced-induction "supercars".

    "Where you say the rest of world have to resort to forced induction to keep up with push-rod, well my friend you are far mistaken."

    I won't speak up for it, although I think Ford has engineered some sweet vehicles with their variation on a theme.
    Ultimately, forced induction won't keep up either. Better engineering and a little more displacement would. Do you ever wonder why Euro's have been continually increasing the displacement of their "supercars" over the past 20 year? THINK about it. A belt-driven supercharger is inefficient, but necessary, to stay away from lag. Turbocharging actually BLOCKS the airflow until boost arrives. It also necessitates a lower compression ratio.

    "360 Modena - Naturally aspirated - 3.6 L v-8 - 400 horsepower - 111 bhp/L"
    -nice bhp/L, but owned by the C5 Z06, Ferrari had to shelve it.

    "BMW M5 - Naturally aspirated - 5.0L v-8 - 394 Horsepower - 78.8 bhp/L"
    - mediocre, by your standard, see "Cadillac" for high performance luxury

    "Lamborghini Murcielago - Naturally aspirated - 6.2 L v-12 - 575 Bhp - 93.67 bhp/L"
    -overweight(that means poorly engineered according to the very knowledgeable Gordon Murray), and barely unable to match the C6 Z06 at the 'Ring; nice bhp/L rating though

    "BMW 745i - Naturally aspirated - 4.4 L v-8 - 324 horsepower - 75.72 bhp/L"
    -see "Cadillac" again

    "Nissan 350Z - Naturally aspirated - 3.5L VQ35 v-6 - 287 horsepower - 80.05 bhp/L"
    -too bad it's uglier and slower than the 'vette, for a close amount of money (my opinion on the "ugly" comment)

    "and heres the kicker
    Honda S2000 - 2.0L I-4 - 240 horsepower - 120 bhp/L"

    -can you say "peaky horsepower", can you say "no lowend torque", can you say "demands high rpm to acheive high fun factor (yes, it's fun-to-drive, no doubt!), can you say "high rpm means higher temps and higher wear and higher wearout, regardless of engineering?

    "Peaky" horsepower doesn't amount to squat. A wide useable powerband does. These cars are
    great fun to drive ABOVE 4000 RPM. Let the revs fall and you have a mediocre vehicle at best. Step down and wait for the revs to build, while my large displacement highly-engineered American pushrod "rubbish" is making you wonder what just happened.

    Oh, and yes, turbo-lag still exists. There is no way around it. There are only two ways to acheive superior torque and horsepower, without giving something away: increased displacement and increased compression ratio. Oh, and the small-block Chevy weighs LESS than many of its lower-displacement lower-horsepower "superior-engineered" European and Japanese hotrods (hot???).

    All these "high-level" engineering tricks to get higher horsepower are compromises and gimmicky at that. My young friend, I've been around a little longer than you and know what makes vehicles perform, on both ends of the powerband.

    Fundamentally, all a gas-combustion engine equates to is an air-pump; the higher the velocity of the charge through the engine, the more torque is created. At low rpm's, a DOHC engine cannot create a high-velocity charge because of the too-large volume of a DOHC at low rpm, unless gimmicks are used.

    Think about it this way: water has to fill the banks of a river channel, and the higher the water velocity, the higher the force (torque, in this case). At a low-rpm, a multi-valve engine is attempting to fill the Mississippi...er uh....Thames River channel with only a few litres of water, and this situation leads to a slow charge-velocity. A 2-valve large displacement pushrod doesn't have that problem. Euros and Japanese engineers HAVE no choice but to engineer gimmicky exhaust tricks and valve-timing engineering games (see "VTEC" in Webster's unabridged). It isn't better engineering...its MORE engineering.
    There is an old phrase that you should know about: KISS (keep it simple, stupid). In real life, THAT (KISS) is good engineering.

    I will acknowledge that forced-air induction creates more power UNDER BOOST. Are you aware that supercharging and turbochargin have been around in American engines since the 1920's? How old school!

    GM did play around with a DOHC-engine in the early '90's. They bought a block from Mercury Marine (one of the premier engine-makers in the world...marine engine tech puts automotive technology to shame). They found that DOHC did not hold that much promise. The small-block Chevy, a 53-year old marvel of engineering, was a better pallette overall, as is currently being proven.

    Oh, and complex valve trains NECESSITATE more engineering. Notice I didn't say BETTER engineering. Moving parts wear out. More moving parts offer more chances of wearing out. Valves move, by their very nature. It's a fact. Get used to it.
     
  9. My apologies for the double-post, but you need some more knowledge:


    "Lets look at some american counterparts
    Dodge viper SRT-10 - 8.3L !!! v-10 - 500 bhp - 60.42 bhp/L"

    8.3L means 500 dependable street-useable hp, thank you

    "Corvette z06 - 5.7L v-8 - 400 bhp - 71.49 bhp/L"
    -the C5, z06, see

    Heres possibly the most efficient american naturally aspirated engine, the saleen S7, it has a 7.0L 550 horsepower v-10 engine, for a very respectable 78.56 bhp/L, however, the car costs $400 000."

    Gas-mileage (ie performance per litre of gas) is the measure of true efficency. The 'vette is walking away with it, my friends from across the sea.

    "So why dont you quit while you are behind,"

    We aren't behind. We are SO FAR AHEAD that you can't see us running away. Porsche, BMW, Ferrari, etal, however, can see it and THEY DON'T LIKE IT!

    I mean, this is what I'm hearing in this thread, again and again:
    Those mean Yanks have bailed us out of trouble again and again (yes, we waited in WWII until you couldn't do it yourselves...poor babies); we diss on them anyhow; now, they have the nerve to flex the muscle of better American engineering.
    Get a clue; GM has surpassed the rest of the world in performance. They are tired of those pesky Euro flies, and are swatting them. Why they've waited so long to do it baffles even me! They've had the money and the know-how to do so from the beginning...I don't like corporate politics either.

    Here's some good advice: get used to it. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

    "Oh, and and suck up your pride. For SVT mustang cobra, uses a supercharger. The Jaguar (owned by ford) s-type R, uses once again a supercharger. The new Dodge Magnum SRT-8 has 430 horsepower, supercharged. I find nothing wrong with forced induction."

    Good, because Porsche uses forced induction as an end-all and be-all, but once again: there is NO replacement for displacement. Porsche has been falling prey to displacement increases too. They hate to lose market share to American rubbish.

    Here's another old saying to think about: "Horsepower sells cars, but torque wins races".

    "Hell if you can make an efficient engine, with lots of power using it, good for you."

    Thank you, we do. 505-hp (claimed, actually higher because GM doesn't like to brag too much, heh heh), 7.0 litres, 28-29 mpg. What's that all about?

    "But if you want to start seeing who can make better naturally aspirated engines, look no further then across the atlantic."

    Yes, look over the Atlantic.
    "You might not like what you see."
    "What will he find...?"
    "His destiny."
    -Planet of the Apes, circa 1968 (an American movie)

    "The numbers above clearly prove it."

    Yes, they clearly prove that high hp/litre ratings mean nothing. All show and no go.

    "Heck my hyundai elantra has a class leading 140 horsepower 2.0l I-4."

    You bought Korean? How...ummm....exotic!

    "When i told the chevy salesman that was trying to sell me a cavalier that, he thought i was lying (yes i know the cavalier ecotec engine has 140 horsepower)."

    Car salesmen tend to discredit anything that might prevent a sale, their livelyhood. I've found that many don't know how to change their own oil, such founts of knowledge.

    "dont get me wrong, teh american auto industry is doing great work these days,"

    Indeed they are. Japan uses high tariffs and bad propaganda to prevent an American auto industry takeover. The late Honda founder Soichiro Honda (a brilliant engineer who I deeply respect, btw) stated that he feared General Motors, not Toyota, during an interview in the early '90's. He basically said that if GM ever stopped their way of making cars (poorly engineered garbage, circa 1960-1996, which I will definitely agree with), and used their engineering might and fiscal power, his auto company, as well as everyone in the world, would really struggle.

    "adn i really like their concepts (shame theyll never make it to production as good as the concepts),"

    -see Dodge Viper,z06,etc

    "but just get the realisation in your head, that the corvette z06 is far from the ultimate sports car."

    No, it is just a stepping-stone (over 99.999% of the so-called supercars) that GM is selling at an unbelievable price. In the next few years, watch the performance dominance of Euro "supers" and their Japanese counterparts become a complete thing of the past, top to bottom. I'm thinking Enzo-beater, as this thread started out. Yes, you will see a supervette that will crush everything Ferrari, Porsche, etc has ever created.

    In my book, if you want to see a true-blue supercar nowadays, look at Gordon Murray's McLaren F1. It is untouched and will probably stay that way. And yes, it is European, I know. Good engineering through and through. I just don't have that kind of money, so I'll stick with an American monster, known as the z06, to soften the financial blow, as it kicks the crap out of Europe's has-beens.

    Sure, I wouldn't mind owning ANY of these cars, I just prefer the fastest AND the cheapest. Those engineers must have done something right.

    Don't even get me started on the "racing-heritage" thing, or "superior-suspension". The z06 derives from both, that's why it is trashing everyone else.

    PEACE.
     
  10. Oops! I TRIPLED POSTED. Just another idiotic American (I'm no engineer!)
     

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