Re: Torque Issue

Discussion in '2002 Mazda RX-8' started by Krazy383, Aug 10, 2002.

  1. crazy383, the vette is faster than the supra in straightline speed by a very small margin(very very small margin), i admit that, but two things i must mention. first, the engine in a supra is detuned for insurance reasons, the actual sequential twins can put out as much as 400 hp with no addition of aftermarket parts. that aside, my second point is that the supra is faster on a track, since its got better braking and a better roadholding. but yes, the vette is faster stock in acceleration. but i must mention this, these two cars are about the same in performance, all it comes down to now is personal preference and so on. i like the supra better bcause it has four seats, and a more ergonomical interior, and i also prefer the looks of the toyota. and yeah, i just like the engine design. with the stock crank, supras are known to pump out as much as 950 hp and with modded cranks that number has gone as high as 1300hp. i admit, some turbo or s/c'ed vettes came close to those numbers, but from almost twice the displacement!!!<!-- Signature -->
     
  2. Supra is stupid
     
  3. i just hate it when ppl come up with these type of retarded answers and comments. "supra is stupid" !!!! ooh ok then. just by saying those few words, it shows how much ur informed ivan, or how ignorant u are. <!-- Signature -->
     
  4. what i mean by that ivan is that ur words dont make sense. how can a car be stupid?? the supra was released in 1993 and not redefined since in any major way, because the design was so ahead of its time. for the price of a vette in 1993 u got a car with far more performance and mroe practicality. the car was and is very advanted, is reliable, has great styling(personal preference) and has great performance compared to other cars in its price range, and still wasnt overpriced in any way. so how can this car be stupid?? if ur gonna make a statement like that, at least back it up plz.<!-- Signature -->
     
  5. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from PORSHE962lovr</i>
    <b>what i mean by that ivan is that ur words dont make sense. how can a car be stupid?? the supra was released in 1993 and not redefined since in any major way, because the design was so ahead of its time. for the price of a vette in 1993 u got a car with far more performance and mroe practicality. the car was and is very advanted, is reliable, has great styling(personal preference) and has great performance compared to other cars in its price range, and still wasnt overpriced in any way. so how can this car be stupid?? if ur gonna make a statement like that, at least back it up plz.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    How did you know the supra is more reliable? The supra is one of the worst handling FR cars, and btw, did you drive one before? I had, and it's really bad when come to sharp or deep corners.
     
  6. theres somehting about those rotarys they don't seem to need much torque. This car is nice, but it lacks the gorgeous styling of the RX-7, last gen. I bet it kicks ass though, keep it up imports. imports are coming back.<!-- Signature -->
     
  7. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from theace</i>
    <b>theres somehting about those rotarys they don't seem to need much torque. This car is nice, but it lacks the gorgeous styling of the RX-7, last gen. I bet it kicks ass though, keep it up imports. imports are coming back.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    It definitely kick @ss, but it's truly very ugly and copied from S2000
     
  8. actually i did drive a supra tt a few times ivan. one of my friends has one with a suprastore bpu++ kit on it and besides that its basically stock. its no secret that supras are tailhappy, but that also translates into oversteer on demand with that kinda power, and for an experienced driver that can be a good thing. its a hard car to hadle for weekend racers and so on but master ur clutch, throttle and double clutch right, and the car can be extremely fast. as they say, a loose car is a fast car. personally, i like tail happy cars, but thats personal preference, and although this car is not to ur liking u can still not call it a stupid car. maibe hard to drive but not stupid. truth is, once we get into very high performance cars, most are a ***** to drive, but rewarding nonetheless. and yeah, if someone wants to race or streetrace a car, they tailor it to theyre own liking by choosing aftermarket parts of their likind and sdjusting the sus. to their preference. its a preference thing.<!-- Signature -->
     
  9. Always an issue with rotaries, but, as it has been said before, if the car can be launched just right the power peak can be utilised rather than the torque. One advantage, though, is that the engine wastes less fuel on excess torque at low RPM, so the engine only drinks hard when you thrash it, similar to the VTEC powerplants of Honda.
     
  10. look if you want reall torque you should go a V-12 like tha tvr speed 12 rare and really fukin expensive but heaps of torque!
    as 4 tha RX-7 the rotary's put out a lot of accel and tourque for tha sizebut relative to most cars in their price range they are pretty puny!
     
  11. I'm going to put my 2 cents in here. The RX-7 is about the ONLY Japanese cars I respect when it comes to performance verses price. To the guy who said stock Japanese cars are about equal to the power/weight of American cars, I ask you this. Stock PERFORMANCE of Japanese cars verses American cars, what say you? Name a stock Japanese cars that can beat a SUB 4 second 0-60 Corvette Z06, which happens to do 1.00g on the skidpad for only $50,000. Name one that can beat an 01 Mustang Cobra for about $29,000. And I don't mean one that costed the same amount 5 or 10 years ago. How about a $22,000 Z28? I'm sure you can find a $22,000 Japanese car that will handle a tad bit better, but get SMOKED when it comes to acceleration.

    Japanese cars tend to have higher reving engines, which puts their peek torque higher on the RPM band. Since the torque is multiplied by the RPMs when Horse Power is calculated, you end up with much higher horse power than you have torque. This is why most Honda drivers piss their pants because they're so happy about having high horse power per liter. It's always fun the burst their bubble by asking, "and how much torque?" American cars get higher horsepower by increasing torque, and Japanese cars get their horsepower by increasing RPMs. It's that simple. I swear I'm going to choke the living shxt out of the next azzhole who says, "You have a large 8 cylinder engine, so it must be low tech." It's much easier to get higher RPMs from 4 small cylinders, than 8 large ones. Picture trying to control 8 large heavy cylinders moving about at 9000 RPMs. If it were easy then everyone would be doing it, and we'd have 1000 horse power engines all over the road.
    I'll choose diplacement over RPMs thank you very much. I would much rather have 350 lbs of torque at 4000 RPM, than 150 lbs of torque at 7000 RPM.

    Back to the RX-8. I do very much respect for the RX-7 performance, although I won't say they're king of the road. Everyone is aware of the problems the rotary engine had, and the cost of repair on those things. Most mechanics won't even touch one. I do have my eye on the RX-8 and I'll give it a chance. Three things I'm going to look for.

    1: How will a stock RX-8 perform on the track and the drag strip?

    2: Will the RX-8 be as tuneable as the RX-7? How long will it take for the aftermarket parts to begin hitting the shelves and magazines?

    3: How reliable will THIS rotary engine be? What will the costs of service, repair, etc. be?
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  12. I can see your view but you still have your head stuck in the sand! Japan is very inlike the good ol US of A in the motoring world. They are a much smaller contintent with tight street/alley ways & can barely open the throttle full.

    For export reasons, Japanese manufactuer's have to adhere with strict pollution controls of not only Japan, but the rest of it's world market. Trying to cram 5 litres of 8 into tight cars is & obeying pollution laws near on impossible. The only cars that do are taxed as a luxury car.

    I will always stick to the rule of inferior cast/alloy iron block 8's of America, compared to say that of Japan's which pull a lot more HP per litre out of their's. EG the Toyota 1UZ-FE 32 valve V8 whuch pulls just 194kw out of 3968cc. Mind you not a lot of V8's are available in Japan, the other I know of is the Nissan VH-45DE (208kw 4494cc). From what I have seen, these are only mildly tuned!
     
  13. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Mr Rotary</i>
    <b>I can see your view but you still have your head stuck in the sand! Japan is very inlike the good ol US of A in the motoring world. They are a much smaller contintent with tight street/alley ways & can barely open the throttle full.

    For export reasons, Japanese manufactuer's have to adhere with strict pollution controls of not only Japan, but the rest of it's world market. Trying to cram 5 litres of 8 into tight cars is & obeying pollution laws near on impossible. The only cars that do are taxed as a luxury car.

    I will always stick to the rule of inferior cast/alloy iron block 8's of America, compared to say that of Japan's which pull a lot more HP per litre out of their's. EG the Toyota 1UZ-FE 32 valve V8 whuch pulls just 194kw out of 3968cc. Mind you not a lot of V8's are available in Japan, the other I know of is the Nissan VH-45DE (208kw 4494cc). From what I have seen, these are only mildly tuned!
    </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    The issue of strict pollution laws shouldn't really be a factor. The US has some of the most strict pollution laws in the world, and yet we have many performance cars with 5 liters of displacement or more. I can see your point about wanting to lean toward smaller, compact cars due to geography. But one thing that strikes me as odd. I've read a lot in these forums about Japan having Horse Power limits (I don't know if it's true). But I've read nothing about limits on torque. If torque is unlimited and horse power has a legal cap, then I would think larger engines would be the way to go. With say, a 5 liter engine you could easily make a 280 Horse Power engine with say, 320 lbs of torque. Torque is what really "drives" your car to accellerate (no pun intended), not horse power.
    However, keeping a tiny compact design AND wanting to increase torque can be tricky. I can see why so many Japanese performance cars love their turbos. <!-- Signature -->
     
  14. The horsepower limit in Japan is not a legal limit, it is self-imposed by the car companies of Japan. From looking at upcoming sports cars, I'd say this agreement is going to be thrown out the window though.<!-- Signature -->
     
  15. The Japs tend to rely of technology rather than more cubes. Larger capacity motor's require a larger car to fit them, which brings the car into a larger tax bracket under Japanese legislation.
     
  16. I really can't believe the ignorance here.

    Mclaren F1 and a dodge viper have similar torque, which is the faster car?
    If torque made a fast car then japan would have limited torque too. But then the decision makers actually KNOWING anything about the laws of physics would have realise torque is heavily dependant on gear ratios, etc

    Skyline GT-R, EVO, WRX, 300ZX, VH45, all cars that run up against the 280hp power limit all have masses of torque for their HP.



    I thought the torque argument was settled along time ago: The Americans are wrong.
    If you understand anything about the physics of fast cars
    If one engine makes more crankshaft torque than another engine, it doesn't matter a damn. It matters what RPM that torque is being made and how the gear ratios put that to the road. Torque at the rear wheels and horsepower at the rear wheels are the numbers that actually mean anything (other than the compensated size of your dick).

    Horsepower = Torque x engine speed

    Acceleration = Horsepower, weight, gear ratios, etc.

    Top speed = Horsepower, aerodynamic drag

    Torque a fast car makes not.

    Whats more important is an engines ability to make torque accross a big RPM ranges. Again the large displacement arguement looses here.
    Did you know a suzuki hayabusa (140bhp per litre!) has a broader torque band than a viper (54bhp per litre)? Look at the graphs.
    Torque at low revs is important for easy driving, mid range is important for 0-60 and any work in 1st gear. Top end torque is critical because you need torque where your gears keep the engine. Also to push the air at max speed.

    American engines lack engine speed and efficiency, and make up for it by being much larger. They make poor torque and only at low and mid RPMs. A viper makes around 55 lb ft per litre of displacement - the upper end of streetable pushrods. A regular jap DOHC I4 makes 65-70, a suzuki hayabusa engine makes 84lb ft per litre.

    A 400bhp Ferrari will make the same thrust at the rear wheels as a 400hp Z06, because the Z06 has to have taller gears to have the same road speed.

    Rotarys can make a great deal of torque without much displacement, and rev really hard and can be tuned to make very broad torque. The RX-8 has variable valve shutters which will flatten out torque much like variable cams in a piston engine.

    <!-- Signature -->
     
  17. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from jitzu7</i>
    <b>To try and answer Krazy383 question. How can cars with less hp beat cars with more hp. Sometimes it depends on the transmission in the car. For example, I know the New Toyota Celica (best model) can beat a V-6 Camaro or Firebird(samething) from 0-60mph. Typically, (only from my prospective) Japanese car makers concentrate more on the transmissions than the Hp. American car makers tend to be the opposite. Traditionally, in the states tons of hp was the thing to do. American makers are now catching up with the times. In my opinion, American makers are really big doggers - they only care big hp cars(and trucks). Look at the top cars in the states. Corvette(like the new one), mustang(D-), Viper(okay...)..etc. Its not so much the gear ratio, but just how good the transmission is. You also have to take into account the fact that the v-6 camaro..is not a top sports car, whereas the SS Camero is. The Celica(top model)is toyotas top sports car sold in the states right now, so they can affort to maek it a little better. To me, Europeans make the best cars. They offer a lot of hp, torque, and great and I mean great transmissions. The TVR Cerbera 4.2(the what?-I know) is a good example. No corvette, supra or z car can beat it with out some serious up grades..its transmission is just that good. </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    this guy is rite and Id ahve to say even with mods most of those cars will have some trouble beating the TVR. the Cebera speed 12 is awsome piece of technology.<!-- Signature -->
     
  18. Now I don't want to lean towards Japanese cars or anything but have you noticed how the only 2 american cars we compare are the corvette and the mustang? We compare them to the skyline, rx7, rx8, supra, and more. All of which are japanese. Are the corvette and mustang the only american cars that can compete with japanese cars punks? So stop saying, "This car sucks, the corvette could woop it!" because it could woop any other american car. Also, stop camparing echos, kias, and other economical family cars to corvettes!<!-- Signature -->
     
  19. you forget how little the engine of this thing is. think of the engine size and the number of torque it actually is pretty big proportionally.
     
  20. yes you can keep your torque, but ultimately its the horsepower that makes a car go faster. SIMPLY PUT THIS IS TRUE. its just the equation with work power and time. you cn have a lot of power but you can accomplish 0 work. i have to give you that torque is more important BUT high end torque is much more beneficial than low end torque PLUG YOUR NUMBERS INTO THE HORSEPOWER EQUATION AND YOU"LL SEE. you want to have the maximum torque arrive near max rpm so you can max hp. if you think torque is so more goddamn important than hp than take a large semi truck and race it against an ordinary car. this is true EVEN IN AMERICAN CARS SO DONT GIVE ME THAT SHIT. on the track no one keeps their revs low only high so unless the only form of racing apparent to you is driving in straight lines for a couple of seconds you'll realize that high end torque is much more important than low end torque.

    sample equation
    suppose we generate 1000 toruqe and rev to 2000
    1000lbft x 2000rpm / 5252 equals about 380 hp (you'll have a harder time revving higher with a large displacement engine, thus the low/hp/liter count this car probalby has around 12 liters of displacement)

    280 lbft x 8000 rpm = about 428 hp (this car probably has a displacment of about 3.8 liters and the rpm figure is very accomplishable.

    now factor in that weight of the 12 liter engine its pretty bulky couldn't handle worth shit and would waste a lot of fuel. the bottom one simply is better. of course gear ratios and things like the trasnmission are very important but you must remmeber that how fast something goes isn't judged by the FORCE but by the actual amoung of WORK BEING ACCOMLISHED. if you have all the force in the world but you can budge a rock does it really matter? no. also think of it this way. if you have your low end torque being made early, you would want a lower rpm becaues otherwise everytime you shifted you wouldn't be anywhere close to your maximum torque effectiveness by generating a high end torque rating you can effectively gear the car so that everytime you shift you are constantly in 1) a high rpm range 2)the high end of the torque circle thus producing high horsepower when racing. low end torque is important in drag racing because the start is almost the most crucial point, but a real racecar will always have a high end torque rating. displacement is important but moving faster is more important.

     
  21. Ok here's a trick question..
    We have two cars which weigh exactly the same, one is chevy V8 powered and one is S2000-like. They are both moving at 100kph (60mph)
    both cars are at these RPMs making this much horsepower:

    Car 1: 250hp (making 400Nm) at 4500rpm
    Car 2: 250hp (making 200Nm) at 9000rpm

    ie, car 2 has about half the torque of car 1

    Which car will accelerate faster?
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Answer: They both will accelerate at the same rate. <IMG SRC="http://www.supercars.net/servlets/cMsg/html/emoticons/smile.gif">

    So you see torque doesn't matter, gear ratios multiply it so torque is always similar for the same HP.

    But i was wrong, the S2000 engined car will accelerate faster, just slightly because it has a higher specific torque output, and the engine and driveline has alot less inertia. So car 2 wins at being more efficient.
     

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