Re: What do you think?

Discussion in '1991 Mazda 787B' started by RacingManiac, Aug 9, 2002.

  1. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from V12</i>
    <b>I just have a question. In your first post to this topic, kenmclaren, you talk about the leading Mercedes in Le Mans 1991. Now, I'm not such a huge Le Mans expert like you or RacingManiac are, but didn't Mercedes make their first appearence into international motorsport in 1997 with the CLK-GTR after their horrible accident in Le Mans in 1955? So how can it be that a Mercedes already raced in 1991?</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Remember I was talking to you about this in that 300SLR topic? Now, "officially" Mercedes returned to international motorsports with the 1997 CLK-GTR. But back in the late 80s and early 90s, Sauber(the same Sauber in F1 today) Sportscar program was running in Group C category. They first used a BMW engine in 1988 Sauber BMW C8, and then the Mercedes factory started to get involve as an engine supplier and technical support. With the C9, Sauber Mercedes were able to win the 1989 Le Mans 24 hours. Because of that win, Mercedes decide to continue with the program. But with the rule change and the unrealiable car. They never did win Le Mans again and they pulled out in 1992 with the Sauber program. That was never a official factory effort.<!-- Signature -->
     
  2. Oh I see.<!-- Signature -->
     
  3. Mercedes at LeMans

    Mercedes has only won twice in 1955 with their 300SLR, and in 1989 with their Sauber C9.

    Returning in 1991 with the Sauber C11 was unable to outlast the Mazda, but was leading ti'll mechanical problems struck on a pit stop. But part of it is, the C11 was fast enough to lead the Mazda and the best placed Jaguar, if it had lasted at the final 1 hour 30, it would've won.

    Returning to its efforts, Mercedes returned to competition in 1997 with the CLK-GTR, winning the 1997 FIA GT Championship.

    In 1998, Mercedes attacked the 24 hours with the wickedly fast CLK-LM, which set the best pole time in qualifying, beating the best record by 6 full seconds, and upsetting the rapid Toyota GT-one. Disaster struck both machines in the 2 hour mark, with mechanical pump failures. But in that year, the CLK-LM managed to clinch the FIA GT Championship with ease from the LeMans winning Porsches.

    In 1999, Mercedes continued its assault with a three car effort. With the ultra low and sleek, powerful CLR, a much modified variant of the CLK-LM. Both qualifying sessions were troubled, with two flips, forcing one of the cars to retire from entering the race. The last two started the race, and were very competitive. 5 hours later, one of the cars flipped, and so the other car went on to retire. After that Mercedes is out of contention.

    Returning to its feet, today Mercedes only runs sports cars in the German DTM races. I think its not over yet.<!-- Signature -->
     
  4. LE MANS - THE CHANGING SCENE




    The high pitch roar of the ingenious rotary engine of a Mazda thundering down the 3 mile Mulsanne straight, or a Ferrari V12 ripping through the "Carte S" chicane. These familiar Le Mans sights and sounds seem very similar but in reality belong to completely different worlds.

    The difference a decade makes in the realm of sportscar racing, or more specifically, Le Mans, is astounding. Who could have imagined back in 1990 that for the year 2000, the way to go technologically and aerodynamically was an open cockpit racer that could change its entire rear-end within a few minutes compared to the heavier closed cockpits of the Jaguar XJR-9 and the Sauber Mercedes C-11 that would take most of the night to repair a similar problem?

    So many events have occurred, people come and gone, and rules written and deleted that none could have written a better scenario for the ten years that have passed. Being a nine time veteran of Le Mans, and actually having lived there for three years, I have been able to witness the changes literally as they happened.

    The addition of two chicanes to the world's most famous straight line must be the most important occurrence in recent Le Mans history. Although many would argue that the chicanes (top of page) are a useless and even stupid idea, the fact is the potential speeds of the cars seen today are much faster and without the chicanes to slow these bullets down, there would be another flying Mercedes every lap. The clocked speed of the Toyota GT One in 1999 on the first section of the Mulsanne before the chicane was close to an incredible 223mph (360 kph)! If the chicanes were not there to slow them down, these cars wouldbe capable of speeds in excess of 400 kph at which point safety really becomes a concern. Although, the chicanes are good at slowing competitors down, their design could probably have been made as to better suit the characteristics of the land and the rich history of the circuit. Alas, the ACO was forced to spend millions of Francs on these chicanes and is not about to give up on them now.Another change in the physics of Le Mans came in 1991 when the old pitstands were demolished and new modern ones were built. Although the beautiful new stands quickly became popular with teams for its modern facilities and easy access via truck, the face of Le Mans changed forever.


    The old stands offered seats hanging off the roof of the hospitality suites in which a few lucky fans could look down on all the action in the pits below.This perk was lost in the construction of the modern stands(right).

    What are these fences doing, popping up in a new part of the track every year since 1996? It is evident that the ACO wants "Le Circuit de la Sarthe" to become a premier world racing venue. Unfortunately the only way to accomplish this is by adopting Formula 1 safety standards, which include mile-long gravel traps and fencing that is so thick, fans need x-ray vision to even see through . Automobile racing is inherently dangerous, everyone knows that, but there is no reason to strive to make it completely safe and therefore distract to the quality of the circuit and sport. With the recent Mercedes fiasco, fences have gone up in many new places in 2000 and new for next year is the shaving down of the Mulsanne "hump." What a shame.

    A source of major controversy in the early 90s was the separation between the ACO and the FIA. To make a long story short, the ACO and FIA had different ideas as to where the sport was headed and what rules to employ to ensure a smooth future (as well as financial difficulties). With this, the FIA pulled its backing of the 24 hours of Le Mans and removed the race from the FIA championship. What had once been a thriving Group C class swarmed with topnotch drivers and teams, actually ceased to exist in all practical terms and what was once the race to enter had become the rebel on the block. With no supporting championship winnings to entice teams and factories, the 24 Hours of Le Mans became a privateer haven. The actual ramifications of the split did not become evident until a few years later in 1994 and 1995 in which there was barely a single factory entry and some teams left much room for improvement. Le Mans actually lived off its name for two years (92, 93) when factories such as Peugeot and Toyota still attended with amazing professionalism. Since then, the emergence of new cars have paved the way to a more factory rich environment.

    A privately run McLaren GT made its debut in 1995 and won. This feat led to Porsche's involvement with the 911 GT1 and later, Toyota's baby, the GT-One. The GT class became the front running group and the showcase for many manufacturers. It seemed to be an aesthetic propaganda scheme rather than a valid advantage over open seaters. In the five or so years in which the GT class was at the forefront, GTs only won Le Mans twice. As in all sports including racing, results speak louder than media hype or the like. After Joest's wins in '96 and '97 handing over embarrassing defeats to the works Porsche GT1s, teams began to look at producing open seaters once more. In 1999, the year most experts claim to be the most exciting and manufacturer diverse, there was a visible split between whether open seaters or closed cockpits were the most efficient way to


    contest Le Mans. Mercedes (left) and Toyota showed up with their "bubble cars" and BMW turned out with an open cockpit racer. Audi on the other hand decided to build two of each type of car, just in case. In the end, using a slight variation of the V12 motor used in the McLaren in 1995, the BMW won on great fuel conomy and pure reliability. There have been hundreds of articles arguing in favor of one side or the other, whether open or closed cars offer the best chances of winning "the race." Noone really knows but it sure is great to have this controversy and mystery around such a deserving race and there was no better way to attract more teams.

    The people. There are many things to say about "the people" at Le Mans. In 1990 there were so many relaxed figures and teams and mechanics who really wanted to be there. In 2000, the atmosphere, albeit still as charming and "Le Mans-ish" as before, lacked the enthusiasm and love of before. This is mainly because Le Mans has become so commercial and so much is riding on it. There are car makers who build three cars just to race in Le Mans only. The sponsorship needed to field such teams is amazing. Le Mans has become nearly as expensive as Formula One. As a result there are many people at the race that have more important things on their minds than racing. There are businessmen and representatives that attend the race because their money is what is making the wheels on the racecar turn. There is nothing we can do about this. Imposing costs of shipment, products, drivers, everything, has led to the necessity of sponsors and company moguls.


    One thing that hasn't changed about Le Mans people is the actual fans that travel 800 miles to see the race. The British always come down in droves regardless if there is a strong British entry or not. They come for the love of racing and good times. Since 1996 (as far as I know) there has been a small group of British who form on the side of the road, whether it be on the track during Friday afternoon when there is no racing, or in the streets of Arnage, a suburb of Le Mans. After a few beers, this group practices stopping cars in the middle of the street, many times in both lanes of traffic, and counting down 3-2-1, making the stopped car burn out in acceleration. Although probably the dumbest and most dangerous practice known to man, there is a certain overall joy and love for one another and is fueled by the common enthusiasm for Le Mans. Even the police does nothing to stop the goings on. That is because the cops themselves have the same

    burning appreciation for Le Mans as the leader of the group waiving down the passing cars (with a makeshift flag, many times a piece of foam or rubber)! Its like a Ferrari; no man in his right mind would kick or dent or do harm to a Ferrari because he knows what a beautiful piece of work it is and how important it is to the world. I actually feel safer attending the Le Mans 24Hours than doing many other things. There is a sense of comradeship in the crowd of people that is indescribable. So many things have changed about Le Mans but at least the roots have stayed intact, for now.

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  5. What do you think?

    1991 LeMans

    The 1991 race of the 24 hours was the 13th time in 18 years that Mazda had competed at LeMans, before that its best qualificationwas 7th place twice, in 1987 and 1989.

    In 1991 Mazda lined up three cars on the grid, two new 787Bs and one of the early 787s, all powered by the same 4-rotor engine with 654-cc chamber volumes.

    The three Mazdas were very competetive in the race, but not fast enough to out pace the leading Mercedes and Jaguars. RENOWN Mazda of Johnny Herbert, Betrand Gachot, and Volker Wiedler was the fastest of all three. The idea of all the three drivers was to break the car and leave early, cause it was believe that the Wankel powered cars were not very reliable, seen in a couple of races before and after LeMans.

    With four hours to go, only the leading Mercedes stood between the Mazda 787B, and a possible victory. The Mercedes was the fastest, but with 3 hours 15 minutes to go, the German car went back on its pit, and smoke off its engine. With the Mazda leading two laps before the best placed Jaguar, the other two 787s finished 6th and 8th overall. A first win for a Japanese maque, and a Wankel Engine rotor car.

    Car Laps Speed
    Pos Car Drivers Number Completed mph(kph)
    1. Mazda 787B 4708 Johnny Herbert, 55 362 127.45(205.333)
    Bertrand Gachot, Volker Weidler (GB,B,D)
    2. Jaguar XJR12 7400 Jones, Boesel, Ferte 35 360 (204.106)
    3. Jaguar XJR12 7400 Wollek, Fabi, Acheson 34 358 (203.238)
    4. Jaguar XJR12 7400 Warwick, Nielsen, Wallace 33 356 (202.070)
    5. Sauber Merc. C11 6039t Wendlinger, Schumacher,
    Kreutzpointner 31 355 (201.748)
    6. Mazda 787B 4708 Kennedy, Johansson, Sala 18 355 (201.361)
    7. Porsche 962C 3643t Stuck, Bell, Jelinski 58 347 (196.886)
    8. Mazda 787B 4708 Dieudonne, Yorino, Terada 56 346 (196.610)
    9. Porsche 962CK 3643t Reuter, Toivonen, Lehto 11 343 (194.815)
    10. Porsche 962C 3643t Larrauri, Pareja, Brun 17 338 (191.716)


    All the three Mazdas are now in Hiroshima, Japan in the Mazda Museum.

    Now who said the Toyota GT-one is the best race car?
    I don't think so...



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  6. Well the 787B is not as fast as the the new Toyota GT-one, of course the 787 dates back 8 years, so in technology the GT-one is more on it, but in winning the best and most difficult race in the world just makes it the best Japanese car in the world.

    What do you think?<!-- Signature -->
     
  7. I think this car is faster than the GT-One outright, no engine restriction, lighter, full ground effect, and wider tire. Group C car is probably faster than the current LM-GTP car anyday....<!-- Signature -->
     
  8. Mazda 787B

    Its true that Group C cars are faster without the restriction, but they're further less reliable too. But to let you guys know, the 787s are not very reliable, the Wankel motor has not proved to be reliable, except in the 1991 running of the 24 hours.

    The Toyota GT-one was the best sprinter known today, cause of its twin turbo 3.6 liter motor, and its sleek ultra low chassis. The 787 has not had that, its lighter, its engine is much smaller and compact.

    Challenge:

    It is said that the Wankel motors are not very reliable, in both sprint races, and specially endurance races.

    The Ultimate Question:

    Then how in the world did the Mazda 787B won the 24 Hours of LeMans in 1991 with that Wankel engine?<!-- Signature -->
     
  9. The Ultimate Question:

    Then how in the world did the Mazda 787B won the 24 Hours of LeMans in 1991 with that Wankel engine?
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  10. Well, well, well. All you guys out there kept talking about how this engine works, and you can't even answer this one single question.

    It is said that the Wankel motor of this car was not reliable, seen in couple of races before and after it won the 24 hours of LeMans.

    If the engine was not reliable, then how did it win the 24 hour race without major problems?

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  11. Wow. I have no idea what your point is, but none of that you said was right.

    It is said that the Wankel motor of this car was not reliable, seen in couple of races before and after it won the 24 hours of LeMans.

    If the engine was not reliable, then how did it win the 24 hour race without major problems?

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  12. It is said that the Wankel motor of this car was not reliable, seen in couple of races before and after it won the 24 hours of LeMans.

    If the engine was not reliable, then how did it win the 24 hour race without major problems?


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  13. Good article....<!-- Signature -->
     
  14. Hey, thanks RacingManiac, it took me 45 minutes or so to write this up, I'm glad you like it. Now answer the question, not only you everybody. <!-- Signature -->
     
  15. #15 RacingManiac, Aug 9, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
  16. I think he might had meant from a book/magazine article that it is originally from, unless its originally from that website.
    I know I've taken an hour or so to write some huge ass article onto a word document in computer just to show someone.<!-- Signature -->
     
  17. But if you actually go to that site, and copy and paste the article, you get the exact same thing as our friend got up there....it takes 5 sec......not 45 mins....<!-- Signature -->
     
  18. Oh no, I copied it down for 45 minutes, I didn't make this up. I can't paste it, cause my keyboard lacks the EASY BUTTON option, so I just typed it down, sorry for the confusion, and thanks for reading it.<!-- Signature -->
     
  19. The Mazda 787B is my favorite car in the world. I was wondering if anyone has the pictures of the other 787B, not with the RENOWN livery or color scheme, but the white one with the blue stripe and white/blue banner, number 18 or number 56. Does anybody have any?<!-- Signature -->
     
  20. Anyone?<!-- Signature -->
     
  21. hey to answer kenmclarens question since he's been looking for someone worthy to answer it. well this is how i see it. i love the rx-7 and i absolutely love the rotary engine. i'm about to get myself an rx-7 in a few months and for the last few years or so all i've been doing is engulfing myself on information about the car adn its amazing engine. but to answer the question, the only reason it has not been reliable is because no one knows how to use the engine. face it some people don't even kno how a rotary works or even what a rotary is. i don't blame them, 90% of the people in this world are used to the piston type engine and some people even get scared when they see something new or different like the rotary. and all they do is make up somethin like its not reliable enough so it sucks. i mean the every engine is reliable its just who takes good care of the engine. i can say most cars or engines that join le mans break down one time or the other i don't kno why its such a big deal when one of the 3 787's engines break down all of a sudden, i mean come on this is the greatest and hardest race on earth, and your pushing a car beyond its limit of course its gonna break down somehow. but there are the exceptional that push the limit and go beyond such is the case with this 787. so to leave it, i say some people just don't understand the rotary and its as reliable as every other car, it all matters on who's taking care of it.<!-- Signature -->
     
  22. I don't think so, none of that you said is the answer.

    Its true the point of Le Mans is to push hard, in some people's perspective, we all know that all the drivers of Le Mans push hard, whats your point, all the drivers in every Le Mans race push hard, the potential of loosing and winning is 50/50, depending on the car's reliability.

    Anyway, thats not the reason, what is it?<!-- Signature -->
     
  23. Mr Mclaren, You are a dimwit for thinking that rotors are unreliable, I pity you. Seeing it run for 24hrs proves that they are reliable, and if you guys want FURTHER proof.....check out the Bathurst 12hr production car race where a S6 RX7 whipped the ass off Porsche 911s 3yrs running there and then another year at Eastern Creek against a race prepped 911 RSCS (both tracks in Australia.)......then you can say about LeMans, you can go on about Sebring 12hr, and a couple of other races that Mazda have gone crazy at and close to winning. Look at the Japan GT car championship?!!? Heaps of 20B powered RX7s over there, all reliable as their piston counterparts. Look at Puerto Rico and USA......what's the quickest there?!!? A ROTOR!! What can compete with a 13B turbo for hp/litre!??!? NOTHING!! They are pumping inexcess of 700hp/litre, only NHRA Top Fuelers can get the same hp/litre ratio (check out Flaco owned by Abel Iberra, produces 950hp from a 1308cc motor!!) and when driven responsibly, can last inexcess of 250,000miles!! Also, how long as the rotary been around!?!? 33yrs........how long the piston?!?! 116yrs!! Pretty good don't you think?!? Want me to go on?? How about the Racing Beat S6 RX7, with a 983hp 13G motor, got a C/MS record of over 240mph which still stands today......where are the piston motors there!?!? Please dude, don't concentrate on 1 event and see the big picture. C yas!! Mafs!!<!-- Signature -->
     
  24. Hey stupid, what the hell are you talking about? are you sick or something. What RX-7? stupid, you're in the wrong forum freak. I'm talking about this car, this engine, hello, this, this, this.

    I'm talking about this Mazda, the 787B, heelloooo. Its engine was proven very unreliable seen in season races before and after LeMans.

    I'm asking why in the heck the Mazda 787B finished first place in the 1991 LeMans race without breaking?

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  25. I anwsered that using the RX7 comment AS ANOTHER EXAMPLE of rotary reliability you NOB JOCKEY or didn't you read this bit??

    >>>

    The rotary motors in MOST OF THEIR FORMS (12A turbo, 13B, 13B turbo and 20B, NOT JUST THE 26B!!) are very reliable that's all I was saying.......if it wasn't it wouldn't have been (and still be) so damn competitive and won so many damn races in so many categories. They won LeMans, yay.....BUT THAT'S 10 YEARS AGO NOW!! Stop dwelling on 1 result and concentrate on what Mazda have done since then aswell, The 26B is only 1 MOTOR in the whole Mazda scheme of things, so in my opinion stop being so freaking narrow minded KenMcLaren!! okay?? C yas!! Mafs!!<!-- Signature -->
     

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