Re: When will the americans learn how to make engines??????

Discussion in '2003 Ford Mustang SVT Cobra' started by snyper, Aug 9, 2002.

  1. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from BMW M</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from erazixil</i>
    <b>hah. the corvette z06 won in all areas against the m3 and porsche boxster S in motor trend's comparison. And that was with only 385hp.. take ur shit elsewhere</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    In road and tracks comparison the M3 came up on top followed the Z06 and the 911. So you can just shut the #$%# up. M3's have better handling and braking then Corvettes. But the comparison wasn't between a Corvette, we're talking about the Mustang how it will never beat an M3.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Well funny when Car & Driver asked tuners of the world to send in their best cars, AC Schnitzer, Alpina, Dinan, Hamann, Hartge, Korman Autoworks, Racing Dynamics, or any of the BMW tuners, were no where to be found. Only two tuned Euro cars showed up at the track, AutoThority's 911 Turbo and one of RENNtech's Mercedes-Benz. Unfortunately both got trounced by a pair of tuned Corvettes (Lingenfelter and Mallett) and a tuned RX-7 (Peter Farrell Supercars).

    You claim how good BMW is, but how come whenever an open invitation to prove this "luxo-muscle" against other cars, BMW never responds? Sad to say, but a highly tuned BMW would get smoked by RENNtech's M-B.

    Oh and calling mariowrc a newbie... a nice, mature touch, don't you agree? *Sarcasm* Come on, you were a newbie just 9 posts ago! Anyway newbism is not a post count, but a frame of mind, and well I'm sure we can all agree you have not reached that frame of mind yet BMW_M.<!-- Signature -->
     
  2. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from BrownDoggie</i>
    <b>A Mustang GT outperformed the Z3 in almost every road test, including two handling tests. It's got the stiffer suspension, goof.

    This luxury arguement cracks me up. Luxury is a matter of opinion. Give me performance any day. You can have the cushier seat, and I'll blow by you in a faster vehicle.

    Let me present this arguement one more time: when will a European or Japanese car company produce a 6500-horsepower engine to match the Top Fuel Hemis? The Z06 outperforms every car in the world for it's price when it comes to handling - so that arguement is dead. Time to step up to the plate. Americans have been making the best engines in the world for years.

    This site recently featured the 1969 Skyline - with 160 horsepower. The same year the Corvette's 427 was underrated at 430 horsepower (tested at well over 500). We INVENTED performance engines. And our carbureted, pushrod 600-cubic inch Hemis make more horsepower than 600 Honda Civics combined. You ask "when will Americans learn to make engines?" I answer: come to school, let me give you a history lesson.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    dude, how can u compare a Stang GT with a Z3.....use the M variant of the Z3.

    true luxury is personal.....but if the guy in a luxo car can keep up, then that luxo car just gave you the best of 2 worlds. my arguement is that EURO CAR LOVERS don't go for performance ALONE. massive HP is great, but when u finally get in a car that has all the amenities AND a powerful engine, you get ALOT.

    and your issue about the top fuel dragsters.....think about it. europeans aren't into that stuff (1/4 mile racing, they like curves). but, that doesnt mean they can't make those engines....they prolly can......but if u noticed, all european race engines or cars (except for F1 and LeMans) are tuned up variants of real car engines in real car body frames on real car chassis.

    im NOT saying big 3 engines suck, i never did....but the engine making philosophies of the 2 cultures are VERY different. you have very powerful, big block 1/4 mile runners that can turn, on one side and small, but powerful exceptional handling machines that can still do a decent 1/4 mile run on the other.

    americans have always made great engines, europeans make them too (don't deny it) but just added leather seats to them.<!-- Signature -->
     
  3. Well funny when Car & Driver asked tuners of the world to send in their best cars, AC Schnitzer, Alpina, Dinan, Hamann, Hartge, Korman Autoworks, Racing Dynamics, or any of the BMW tuners, were no where to be found. Only two tuned Euro cars showed up at the track, AutoThority's 911 Turbo and one of RENNtech's Mercedes-Benz. Unfortunately both got trounced by a pair of tuned Corvettes (Lingenfelter and Mallett) and a tuned RX-7 (Peter Farrell Supercars).

    You claim how good BMW is, but how come whenever an open invitation to prove this "luxo-muscle" against other cars, BMW never responds? Sad to say, but a highly tuned BMW would get smoked by RENNtech's M-B.

    Oh and calling mariowrc a newbie... a nice, mature touch, don't you agree? *Sarcasm* Come on, you were a newbie just 9 posts ago! Anyway newbism is not a post count, but a frame of mind, and well I'm sure we can all agree you have not reached that frame of mind yet BMW_M.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    about BMW tuners....like i said before, they all suck big time. you can't compare Renntech to any BMW tuner......on contest, Renntech would smoke any Bimmer tuned by those guys.

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  4. American V8's not only get more power, but they also get a crap load better gas mileage, and for at least 20 grand less. You could put an extra 10,000 to tottally pimp them out and the luxury and power would way surpass any beamer
     
  5. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from mariowrc</i>
    <b>yo BMW M dude, as others have said you seem to need to read the hole forum first, and i did post in the page 11 or 12. I am stating my apinion here, unlike you I am not trying to prove my point to what ever the cost. Anyway the furom started by saying the americans can't build engines, and i gave some reasons you why the do these kind of setups. Did I dis BMW no. I like those cars, and I like this mustang very much. No need to take every comment as a threat.
    As i said this car has actually more power than the numbers above.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    fair enough.<!-- Signature -->
     
  6. BMW M yea I'm new to supercars.net, i just found out bout this site , but you ahve to admit American does make cars better for less, they are cheaper, more fuel efficent, more power, you can customize for more lux and still less money, and they're just sexier on the outside. BMW's are nice, but american is gooder, plus i mean come on dude, i'm assuimng you live in america, you gotta support us, theres no way i would sell my camaro, and go foreign.
     
  7. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from FuriousZ28</i>
    <b>BMW M yea I'm new to supercars.net, i just found out bout this site , but you ahve to admit American does make cars better for less, they are cheaper, more fuel efficent, more power, you can customize for more lux and still less money, and they're just sexier on the outside. BMW's are nice, but american is gooder, plus i mean come on dude, i'm assuimng you live in america, you gotta support us, theres no way i would sell my camaro, and go foreign.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    It's one thing to be patriotic and it's another thing to sacrifice something better. The M3 has better handling, braking, technology, luxury, safety. Read road and track, car and driver, and watch motor week if you don't believe me. There many other magazines, sites, and shows that support this statement.<!-- Signature -->
     
  8. #233 Lee Iacocca, Aug 9, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from BMW M</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from FuriousZ28</i>
    <b>BMW M yea I'm new to supercars.net, i just found out bout this site , but you ahve to admit American does make cars better for less, they are cheaper, more fuel efficent, more power, you can customize for more lux and still less money, and they're just sexier on the outside. BMW's are nice, but american is gooder, plus i mean come on dude, i'm assuimng you live in america, you gotta support us, theres no way i would sell my camaro, and go foreign.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    It's one thing to be patriotic and it's another thing to sacrifice something better. The M3 has better handling, braking, technology, luxury, safety. Read road and track, car and driver, and watch motor week if you don't believe me. There many other magazines, sites, and shows that support this statement.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Please ! For God sake ! Stop this cry, BMW_M !
    It's time to bring numbers !

    Let's talk about aerodynamics ! The vette is a sport car and you M3 is just a daddy car !

    I can buy a normal vette convertible, save 6,000 and kick you BMW ass !

    Look sc.net, car & driver, anything ! look www.bmwusa.com, www.chevrolet.com

    Again and again and again and again....

    A BMW M3 46,545 (333hp) (daddy car)
    A Corvette coupe 41,855 (350hp) (sport car)
    The AMERICAN car wins:
    you have 27 more hp and you SAVE 4,690 !

    BMW M3 conv. 54,545 (333hp) (daddy car)
    Corvette conv. 48,380 (350hp) (sport car)
    The AMERICAN car wins:
    you have 27 more hp and you SAVE 6,165 !


    It's time to bring numbers ! No more tears ! (lol!)
    <!-- Signature -->
     
  9. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Hoseman</i>
    <b>Wasn't the topic about engines? Then why are all you bmw-lovers talking about leather seats? America makes better engines, and you can't use the excuse that in Europe we don't do the quarter mile, we are talking about speed not seats.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    what?!?!! don't u watch speed channels......ever seen a european dragster? not to my knowledge.

    if you want to keep it to speed, show me a stock sedan that can top out past 170 mph and do the 0-60 sprint in 4.7........and have leather seats. our point is u get more from a fully loaded powerful car that can almost (if not) keep up with an american car than a barebones, 1/4 mile killer.

    u cant compare inexpenssive, natural borne drag cars (american) to superb handling, driver pampering, sports cars that corner like nothing else.

    then you're gonna say, but the Z06 beat the M3 in the car and driver shoot out......true. but you're comparing a fully loaded, 4 passenger coupe (with the perks) to a 2 seat road monster.....and whats amazing is that the editors liked the M3 more if not for the vette's faster figures. wouldnt u say thats awesome?

    <!-- Signature -->
     
  10. so why are you comparing them then??.........wouldnt that make them 2 separate classes?....come on
     
  11. comparing what?.....z06 and m3?....car and driver did that.<!-- Signature -->
     
  12. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Jadotch</i>
    <b>Name a STOCK car that can beat the 1964 Hemi Dodge Dart in the 1/4 mile?..............still waiting.................The McLaren F-1 may come close.

    Granted it isn't the best around a track, but it was made in 1964.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    oh God...another 1/4 mile question. like i posted up here before, americans are kings of the 1/4 mile, europeans are kings of the whole track.....GET IT!?!

    alot of american lovers....like you....bash euro cars, engines, designs, companies....everything coz' they can't run the 1/4 mile as fast as americans. granted its the weakness they have.

    so i'll turn your table around and ask you.....give me a stock american car that has all the amenities of comfort do 0-60 in 4.7 or a top speed of greater than 170mph or handling like (maybe even better than) a Z06.

    now don't go comin in here bashing me for saying american cars suck......I'VE NEVER SAID THAT!!! read all my posts and you'll see ive never bashed americans before.

    true, euros can't do the 1/4 mile as fast as you, but the road of life has turns (handling)......and bumps (suspension). europeans just covered that aspect of driving alittle more than trying to beat a guy to the finish a quarter mile away.

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  13. I admit it ...i'm a huge BMW fan. Every one i've driven from the z3 1.9 to the 750il has completely blown me away. What made these cars impressive was not their engines (the 1.9 reminded me of my brother's civic) but their cassis dynamics. If you ever read the reviews on BMW cars they always talk about "Bank vault - like chassis rigidity". As for the mechanical bits, take the 3.2 in the M3, while it is pretty impressive putting out 333hp/l, this is an inline engine w/ a high redline, it damn well better put out high hp, especailly w/ BMW's Vanos system. Now take the 'stang. this is a car that costs 20 grand less than the cheapest v8 bimmer (540i). and its engine puts out almost 100 more hp.. (don't even think about invoking the M5...its super limited and there's no way you'd ever get one for sticker, and its already twice the price). Ok, now you're gonna talk hp/l. 86 hp/l may not be spectacular from a blown engine. but hell that means there's plenty of boost left on tap for an underdrive pully to spin up more. The fact of the mattter is, comparing the M3 to the SVT cobra even is not a fair comparison.. because the M3 once agian is really rare.. and i've heard has huge dealer markups.. unless you get a used one.. which while impressive only puts out 240hp...wait a second.. that comes out to 75 hp/l.. damn. Its only been with the last m3 that BMW got into the high hp/l game. and even the m5 puts out less than 80 hp/l. If you ever did try to stick that engine in a ford.. you'd end up w/ an expensive ass mustang, especailly considering the M5 has Vanos.. while the stang has no variable valve timing
     
  14. Ok, what is the title of the post? What does the engine have to do with turning ability besides weight?
     
  15. hey who actually can give me some sites that do reviews of european cars also. If you have any of the sites can you post them, cause american magizine sometimes tend to be one way lookers, (since the avalanche became the truck of the year). thanx
     
  16. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from FuriousZ28</i>
    <b>BMW M yea I'm new to supercars.net, i just found out bout this site , but you ahve to admit American does make cars better for less, they are cheaper, more fuel efficent, more power, you can customize for more lux and still less money, and they're just sexier on the outside. BMW's are nice, but american is gooder, plus i mean come on dude, i'm assuimng you live in america, you gotta support us, theres no way i would sell my camaro, and go foreign.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Nope, as Homer put it last night on the Simpsons, he lives in "America Jr." or the UK, look at his grammar. Anyway, how can he be patriotic, Canada doesn't have it's own car maker.

    Yes American muscle is 20X sexier than Euro-luxo.<!-- Signature -->
     
  17. quite a discussion ive dipped my feet in2 here....

    browndoggie, i feel we've had this discussion b4, but u cant really use dragsters as an example since america is the only country that takes part in it, its a bit like saying "oooh, look at the Lakers, best basketball team in the world, that makes america the best"....erm, no, basketball is an american sport so u SHOULD b the best anyway

    back 2 cars, ive heard so much rubbish in the 15 pages of this forum it makes me laugh, so many made up statistics it almost defeats the purpose of putting ppl right

    hp/litre is irrelevant, ESPECIALLY between NA and super/turbo cars, a supercharger isnt just a 'thing' that aids performance, its not a category of engine on its own, a mildly supercharged engine like this cannot b compared to a highly turbocharged engine like an Evo 6, for example, because they run at different boost levels, different compression ratios, and different combustion chamber capacities

    as for america inventing performance, in the 1950s look no further than the Jaguar XK120/150 and the Mercedes 300SL as the benchmarks for performance, 150mph in the 50s, show me an american car 2 beat THAT browndoggie, i think the europeans invented performance personally

    into the 60s look at the lamborghini miura, in SV spec it could run to the high 170s, show me a muscle car to compete

    today, BMW make the finest engines, 2 take the X5 4.6iS as an example....4.6-litre V8, NA, 347hp, 354 lbft....show me an american 4.6-litre to compete

    Murcielago, 6.2-litre V12, NA, 580hp, 480 lbft....soundly thrashes any similar sized american car

    of course, im using incredible expensive cars (well not that much for an X5) to prove my point, but that just shows that u get what u pay for, is it just that america doesnt bother making true exotics?

    if u want cheap performance, ONLY american will do, if u want the ultimate driving experience, european is the only way 2 go, and thats always been the case
     
  18. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from ch1c4n3</i>
    <b>quite a discussion if u want cheap performance, ONLY american will do, if u want the ultimate driving experience, european is the only way 2 go, and thats always been the case</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    ch1c4n3 knows what's going on.
     
  19. As for american inventing performance engines...
    Anyone ever heard of the silver arrows? Auto Union, which became Audi duked it out with Mercedes in the 30's, with huge benefits from Hitlers gov, because he wanted the Germans to dominate the track. The cars that arose from the two were phenominal, like the speeds you guys are comparing and more. Granted these were purpose built race cars, but still, the HP was incredible. This is in the 30's, and were talking like 600 hp I believe. The US had could not compete at all with that in the 30's.<!-- Signature -->
     
  20. No. no no no no. BMW whatever ur name is. The comparison was between the BMW M, the Corvette Z06, and he Porsche BOXSTER S not the 911. You might have them confused. The Z06 won every category. It handles better, accelrates better, and looks better. Post the lateral G's of a BMW M against a z06.. go ahead.. acceleration too if you want to be real embarassed.
     
  21. To try and settle this debate, comparing a BMW or something to a Mustang is like comparing a Dodge Viper to a Hummer in terms of off road performance. Sure, I would probably prefer an M5 over a 2003 Mustang just because it is a sedan that has a 400hp V8. Where else can you find that? But the Mustangs and and muscle cars have something that the Europeans and Asians don't. Spirit and Heritage. The Dodge Chargers and Stingray Vettes began the muscle car age and will always rule the sports car industry. Not only because of their performance but their sounds (like the rumbling of a 440 Magnum), but their style, and originality. Would I take an M5 over a '69 Stingray with the 427? Hell no. To answer the question, When will the Americans learn how to make engines? I can't answer that but these people can: Carroll Shelby, Steve Saleen, Jack Roush, John Hennessey, John Lingenfelter, or Dario Orlando.
     
  22. How many American engines have more than 100 hp/liter (Naturally Aspirated)? Cadilac Cien does I think.<!-- Signature -->
     
  23. It seems that people are still comparing BMW and this car, and trying to say neither company can build engines.
    People, Ford is going with supercharger becuase lets see it is being used on lightning, jaguars so it all be cheaper to just buy the part and spend some more on engineering it to work properly. Without it they would have to produce so many new parts to get the output close to this thing. So I would say they went the smart way.
    As americans not building decent engine, look no further than cadilac, it is also one of the most reliable.
    Now for americans who say europeans can't build engines specially BMW, BMW got 1060HP out of a 1.5 liter turbo charge engines I believe in late 1890's for formula1 and it did win races to, and europe lets see jaguar and mercedes.They are more expensive but proves the point they can build engines
    I am canadian, so no company really matters to me.
     
  24. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from ch1c4n3</i>
    <b>quite a discussion ive dipped my feet in2 here....

    browndoggie, i feel we've had this discussion b4, but u cant really use dragsters as an example since america is the only country that takes part in it, its a bit like saying "oooh, look at the Lakers, best basketball team in the world, that makes america the best"....erm, no, basketball is an american sport so u SHOULD b the best anyway

    back 2 cars, ive heard so much rubbish in the 15 pages of this forum it makes me laugh, so many made up statistics it almost defeats the purpose of putting ppl right

    hp/litre is irrelevant, ESPECIALLY between NA and super/turbo cars, a supercharger isnt just a 'thing' that aids performance, its not a category of engine on its own, a mildly supercharged engine like this cannot b compared to a highly turbocharged engine like an Evo 6, for example, because they run at different boost levels, different compression ratios, and different combustion chamber capacities

    as for america inventing performance, in the 1950s look no further than the Jaguar XK120/150 and the Mercedes 300SL as the benchmarks for performance, 150mph in the 50s, show me an american car 2 beat THAT browndoggie, i think the europeans invented performance personally

    into the 60s look at the lamborghini miura, in SV spec it could run to the high 170s, show me a muscle car to compete

    today, BMW make the finest engines, 2 take the X5 4.6iS as an example....4.6-litre V8, NA, 347hp, 354 lbft....show me an american 4.6-litre to compete

    Murcielago, 6.2-litre V12, NA, 580hp, 480 lbft....soundly thrashes any similar sized american car

    of course, im using incredible expensive cars (well not that much for an X5) to prove my point, but that just shows that u get what u pay for, is it just that america doesnt bother making true exotics?

    if u want cheap performance, ONLY american will do, if u want the ultimate driving experience, european is the only way 2 go, and thats always been the case</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    nicely put.

    and 84Fordman, don't even think of getting Canada into this arguement, coz' if you do, I can go mouthing off all night why we're the better part of north america. you may have all the car companies, but we Canandians don't use black people for target practice. take care, but watch were you drag this....<!-- Signature -->
     
  25. exactly the point of this is what...who wants to pay more..right?

    bmw makes these engines that are dohc v-8's and other things...but the car is freakin 66000 dollars to own and it pushes 400bhp and 390lbs torque.

    why do that when a corvette pushing 405bhp and 400lbs torque will run u about 50k...hmmm yes cheap but gets the job done, and will and does spank the bmw equivalent.

    name one bmw car that costs under 22k and can match the performance of the 21k mustang gt....cant becuz i dont think one bmw car that has a v-8 costs less than 45k.

    Put it this way....sure ur engines do this or has this tech, but what the fck, u cant even boost another car becuz u will mess of the chips in the car...think not go to a bmw dealer and ask if it is safe to boost another car, they will look at u and say hell no.

    American engines dont even produce what they can in hp terms becuz it would cost them money to do that hence pushing the cars cost up as well.

    That is why the mustang gt engine is only pushing 290bhp i think it is, and the more expensive z28 pushes 310bhp.....see what happens when the manufactuer boosts the power, it costs more.

    i garuntee that a mustang gt costing 21k with about another 9k into the car and engine will spank a z3 or m5 on the track or in a line. Its 2k for a saleen/roush suspension, 2k for a roush supercharger, 2k for tranny and axle upgrade. put that into the car and u will do nothing less than under 5 sec 0-60...especially if u crank up the boost on the supercharger....Mustangs are so easy to tune its not even funny, put a crane cam in the mf and u get 15-20hp, put in just a udp and u get 15hp a air filter charger from k&n puts 10hp but in a better air sensor another 10hp, put a performance borla exhaust another 15hp.....

    Name one bmw that will take very kindly to mods, u cant becuz of all the computer tech stuff on the engine, the check engine light will come on or else u have to get a superchip and have it programmed for the mods u have just made to the car.

    Now show me a 21k bmw or mercedes or porshe or something in that like from germany that can beat a mustang gt.

    didnt think so, see ur agruement for this and that about the bmw engines and how much they cost can be thrown right back at u.<!-- Signature -->
     

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