sport auto Supertest: Ford GT

Discussion in 'American Cars' started by ajzahn, Jan 20, 2006.

  1. #76 Mack100, Jan 23, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    http://www.dtm.de/statistik-wertung.de.php?jahr=1990&Anzeigen=Anzeigen
    Walter Röhrl participated in 4 events.Hans-Joachim Stuck was in all 11 events.also considering that WR started to race on tracks in 1988(he did some races before but not championships)i think that's it's very impressiv.now,i would have liked to see H-J S in rallys.
    http://www.dtm.de/statistik-rennen.de.php?rennen=1991-09-29
    this is the last DTM race in which WR participated.actually it was his only race in 1991.
    ask any german on this planet who is better:WR or Stuck.i'm quite sure that many people will say WR.also,keep in mind that overtaking or blocking weren't (well, most of the time)required in rally.and don't forget that he was elected by rally drivers(kankkunen,blomqvist,makkinen,vatanen,mouton,ragnotti,...)the best rally driver ever.

    i said that a 1.1 second difference is a lot,when you take the other lap times as a reference.i don't remember the AMS test.some tracks suit a certain car better and also some tracks are easy to drive on and usually the differences between the cars(or driver)isn't that big.

    BMW also claims that the M5 is lighter and that the M6 is a lot faster than the M5.have i ever said that their claims are accurate?
     
  2. wtf??

    HRing
    550 - 1:16.1
    575M - 1:14.7

    Nurburgring
    550 - 8:07
    575M - 8:05

    my point is that a evolution make a difference in some tracks,while in other tracks the difference is smaller.
    and i was not comparing the GT3 or Z6 to the ferarris.
     
  3. ok then.i say between 1:00 and 15:00....could you be a bit more precise please?
    we'll see who's right.
     
  4. DTA you're argument is dead ..you're completely out of points ...fade away , you can be stupid later
     
  5. what argument is dead?
     
  6. Consider the fact that the 360 CS only managed a 7:56, compared to the GT3 RS's 7:43, yet they tied on the Top Gear track. These things aren't that easy to predict. You also have to consider the length of the lap. 15 seconds is huge at most tracks, but not at the 'Ring.
     
  7. #82 Guibo, Jan 23, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    WTF? How about trying to stay on topic. I asked you for lap times. Not race results. But then coming from a guy who puts so much stock in BM battles, I'm not surprised you think race results answers the question.
    Overtaking/blocking...well, isn't that just another skill that Stuck had to develop?

    Also, at the bottom of your link:
    "Schnellste Runde: H.-J. Stuck, 2.22,64 Min."

    And what exactly does an election of rally drivers have to do with lap times on a road circuit of production cars? That's about as relevant as me citing Stuck's career successes in GT/ALMS/IMSA/ETCC racing at Sebring, Nurburgring (6H, 24H, and 1000km) and Le Mans.

    If 1.1s is a lot on *different-day* conditions, then what does that say about a 3.59-second difference over a much shorter lap? It raises questions about the SLR's TopGear time, doesn't it? I asked you specifically:
    "So, you really *DO* think the SLR is that fast compared to other cars? 2.5 seconds faster than a GT3 RS?"
    By your unwillingness to answer the question, are you saying that you really *do* think the SLR should be about 2.5 seconds quicker than a GT3 RS under identical conditions on a typical track?
    Since you're too chicken to post up the HRing times like I asked, I'll go ahead and do it (because I know you won't post it even if I ask again):
    SLR - 1:13.5
    GT3 RS - 1:11.8

    And not even at the NRing, where the SLR should be able to stretch its legs, does the SLR open up any sizeable gap over the GT3 RS. It's actually slightly slower than the GT3 RS (but for all intents and purposes, they're largely the same). Next, you'll be telling me the GT3 RS outaccelerates the SLR...

    According to BMW's site, they list the M5 at 1830 kg. Sport Auto weighed it at 1844 kg. Wow, a whopping 14 kg (.76%) difference. BMW aslo claims the M6 weighs 1785 kg, yet Sport Auto reports 1761 kg. Porsche claims the CGT weighs 1380 kg, yet Sport Auto reports 1475 kg. Did Porsche *lie* about the weight? Yes?
    BMW said the M6 is a lot faster than the M5? No, their 0-100kmh claim is 4.6 seconds. That's only .1s faster than their M5 claim. As it turns out, in the Supertest, it did 0-100 in 4.2 seconds, which is .3s faster than the M5.
     
  8. Well, maybe you should because that also shows the evolution on various tracks: On more typical tracks, the C6 laps on a par with the old 385-hp Z06 (and the Maranellos), and the more recent C5 Z06 with more hp and revised suspension should be even faster. And the C6 Z06 should theoretically make the biggest difference yet between them. Especially on a longer track like the 'Ring where it can overcome its lazy gearing far better than the regular C6.
    Just to give you an idea, consider lap times at another typical racetrack, Gingerman Raceway:
    405-hp C5 Z06 - 1:33.9 (driver: Corvette C5-R racer Ron Fellows)
    C6 Z06 - 1:32.75 (driver: Automobile Magazine journalist Mark Gillies*)

    (*In this very same session with the same driver, the Ford GT lapped in 1:32.45, and the C6 Z06 was actually faster by 1 mph on the measured straight.)
     
  9. talking about the evolution of the Corvette at the Nurburgring:

    7:42.9 - 160.207 km/h -- Corvette Z06, 500 PS/1319 kg, Jan Magnusen, (Sporbilen, jun,26 05),
    7:56* -- 155.798 km/h -- Chevrolet Corvette Z06 ,company chief engineer Dave Hill (*mfr.)
    8:15 --- 149.818 km/h -- Corvette C6, 404 PS/1491 kg (sport auto 08/05),
    8:18 --- 149.916 km/h -- Chevrolet Corvette Z05 Commemorative Edition, 344 PS (sport auto 09/2003)
    8:25 --- 146.851 km/h -- Corvette Callaway C12, 400 PS/1564 kg (sport auto 04/99)
    8:40 --- 142.615 km/h -- Chevrolet Corvette C5 automatic, 344 PS/1505 kg (sport auto 07/97)
    8:44.83 141.303 km/h -- Chevrolet Corvette Coupe, 339 PS, automatic (Top Gear magazine)
     
  10. sport auto did 7:47 in GT3 RS and you have a reference lap time of 7:42.a difference of 15 seconds on the ring is the difference between a CGT and GT3 RS.
     
  11. #86 Mack100, Jan 24, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    since when do slow drivers make good race results?
    Stuck didn't start his carreer in rallies.stuck did his first race at the age of 18.WR did his first rally at the age of 21.when he was 29 he did his first race on the track(DTM,finished 7th).the difference in track experience is huge.stuck is only 4 years younger than WR.
    so stuck had time to develop the typical track racing skills while WR had to develop very different skills.i would have like to see stuck on a rally.
    at the time when Röhrl raced there was no internet so you must understand that finding lap times isn't easy.
    the election shows ou how good WR is.i don't know for you but i think that the title of the best rally driver ever means more than some wins on a race tracks.it's not just an average driver.he's among the very best.

    as i said some tracks suit a certain type of car better.the GT3 handles better than the SLR but the SLR has 240hp more.on a close track a difference of 300kg plays a huge role.the HR and top gear track are very different.

    on this site http://www.bmw.com/generic/de/de/products/automobiles/download/pdf/M5_LI_datasheet.pdf it says it weighs 1830kg...with 68kg for the driver,90% of the tank full and 7kg of luggage.you know how sport auto weigh the test cars.same for the CGT which was weight following the same EU methods(driver,luggage,...).
    about the M6 when i speak of faster,i meant on the car.they said that because of the lower weight and lower CG it would handle much much better than the sedan.that would explain the 20,000euros difference but it doesn't.
     
  12. Walter Roehrl did a 7:43. That's 13 seconds faster than the CS, yet they seem to be equal cars. I wouldn't try to make a very precise prediction on such a long track, especially when I don't know the exact difference in talent between Magnussen and von Sorma.
     
  13. i refered to sport auto because i asked you what lap time sport auto would do in the Z06.
    you didn't read what i wrote about von Saurma's and Walter Röhrl's lap tmes,didn't you?
     
  14. As we all know unlike most tracks the Nurburgring is significantly longer. Taking this into account, it will take many many more laps to effectively learn how to race the track. Also, there are many more opportunities for mistakes given the amount of corners.

    Each driver is different, with a different style of racing. Sometimes the natural set up of the cars just favor one driver's particular driving-style as well. This would also explain for differences in times.

    It's a mute point to continuously argue about things you can't control either. Like that they weren't tested on the same day, the track temperature was different, there was this and that and blah.

    It's all just excuses to justify your own opinions that you WANT this particular car to win. You're not going to have a situation where every available sports car and supercars is going to be tested at the Nurburgring on the same day, at the sametime, in the same conditions.

    The conditions at 8am, will be different than 12pm. So unless you can stop the progress of time and the weather, you should just give over to some of the natural differences that will occur.

    Until you get your dream comparison of the C6 Z06 and Ford GT, or whatever other car you have in mind, on the exact same day at the relatively same time and condition, you are just going to speculate until your fingertips bleed from all the excessive typing you'll be doing to prove your superior point.
     
  15. "since when do slow drivers make good race results?"

    Who said anything about slow? Seriously, your sense of reality (and proportion) is all out of whack.


    "blah-blah-blah....i would have like to see stuck on a rally."

    That is simply a matter of Stuck preferring not to follow that profession. That says absolutely *nothing* about how successful he might have been if he had tried at an earlier age. You just don't know.
    Nor does that have *anything* to do with my original request.


    "at the time when Röhrl raced there was no internet so you must understand that finding lap times isn't easy."

    Wait...you have to look to a time *before* the internet to answer my question?? That's quite a long time ago, don't you think? During that time, it's not like Hans Stuck has been sitting around, doing nothing.
    I think the point is clear: You have absolutely *NO* evidence that on a given day with a given car, Rohrl would necessarily be the quicker driver. It's also pretty clear that there *are* other drivers (WR, Sabine, etc), who can lap the 'Ring quicker than von Saurma.


    "as i said some tracks suit a certain type of car better.the GT3 handles better than the SLR but the SLR has 240hp more.on a close track a difference of 300kg plays a huge role.the HR and top gear track are very different."

    Now, tell me precisely what those differences are. I'd like to know how the SLR is much faster than the RS at the TG track, yet noticeably slower around the HR.


    "you know how sport auto weigh the test cars.same for the CGT which was weight following the same EU methods(driver,luggage,...)."

    Actually, I don't know how Sport Auto weigh the test cars. You mentioned somewhere it includes a full tank.
    That still does not explain how there is an even larger discrepancy between the CGT weights (mfr claimed vs Sport Auto).
    Was BMW lying when it underreported the M6's weight by 24 kg? Or was it Sport Auto that was lying?


    "that would explain the 20,000euros difference but it doesn't."

    Isn't the M6 (and the 6 Series in general) a much more limited production car? That, combined with the CF roof, would explain the price difference more than the difference in performance. But I can't recall seeing a same-day test between the two on the same track with the same driver, so until that happens, how much faster the M6 really is is anyone's guess, outside of BMW.
     
  16. I haven't been reading the conversation between you and Guibo. If any of it is pertanent to our conversation, you can post it when you respond to me.
     
  17. That's a very good post. It explains why I didn't try to predict Sport Auto's lap time with a high degree of precision. One person doesn't seem to understand the effect of things like the driver and the conditions.
     
  18. 2006 Ford GT = 0-100 km/h in 3.9 secs. with 550 BHP
    2004 Porsche GT2 = 0-100 km/h in 3.9 secs with 483 BHP
     
  19. ?
     
  20. Not that it matters, but the FOrd GT was about a half second quicker than that.

    The GT>GT2
     
  21. I know what your trying to say, but to put it in short, inaccurate and stupid.
     
  22. if WR has good race results he will also be fast on a time attack.

    when Stuck was racing,WR was developing porsches on the Nurburgring....think,use your brain.ok...<A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/tongue.gif"></A>orsches-Sport Auto-lap times.....

    you want me to know every lap time that Stuck and WR did in theirs carreers by heart??????

    top gear track has bigger straights and technicaly it looks easy.just look at the lap times of the celebrity guests.

    Sport Auot weighs their cars with the tank full and no driver or luggage.
    Sport auto measured a difference of 80kg between the M5 and M6.

    the carbon fiber roof doesn't explain a difference of 20,000 euros.also the 6 doesn't have any particular parts that aren't in other BMWs(except of course for the body.
     
  23. the track is 20km long and between the heighest and lowest point of the track there is a difference of 300m.that's why Sport Auto doesn't precise the conditions because there are different everywhere.some portions of the track are always in the shades because of the trees,the temperatures differences can be quite big because the track is (edit:in)altitude(near a castle,die Nurburg i think)...

     
  24. the air and track conditions of the sport auto Supertest onyl apply for the Hockenheim short track
     
  25. Please bare in mind that the 0-100kmh race isn't very common... And saying that the FGT does 3.9 is a little like saying the M5 does 4.7. It's been acknoledged to go faster then that.
     

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