This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

Discussion in '2000 Hennessey Viper Venom 800TT' started by Bluey, Sep 12, 2002.

  1. Re: This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

    Also
    Yes of course a car with 1000 hp can beat one with 800 hp. What i was saying is that there are already 1000 hp Skylines, and Supras out there. Many of them get it with nitrous of course, yet there are still a very few that push 1000 hp with out nitrous. Unrealible though. So the viper does beat them there.
     
  2. Re: This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

    but to say that i should do you a favor and never respond again is ridiculous. I am a huge fan of all cars. I do not dislike the viper"

    No, i said you should do yourself a favor and not respond here

    BTW, what did you mean by this then? "I will be impressed with this piece of engineer crap." i mean if you don't "do not dislike the viper"

    "so what if it can go around a track quicker thatn other cars"

    What do you mean, so what? you said the car would spin out if you pressed the accelorator in a turn, and considering it doesn't do that, and beats those cars in the process, you're kind of wrong.

    "But when the majority of the performance european magzines call the car slugish for handling"

    well, when american mags. like C&D, MT, or R&T, compare the car, ON A TRACK, with other cars and the "slugish for handling" car beats some european cars, i tend to go with that.


    "So lets say we give a Supra uprated suspension. With the right tuning and weight reduction 1g is possible for it."

    Yes, this car has suspension mods. (six piston brakes, slotted disks, eibach springs exc..)
    but still, a stock viper can get 1g, and the modded 800, 1.06g. <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>

     
  3. Re: This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

    obviously you do not understand the basics of engine design and power curves you could take this car and get rid of the pushrods and make it an overhead cam engine and it would push over 800hp naturally asperated but like a lot of japanese engines and higher reving OHC european engines it would loose much of its low end the supra and skyline make awful low end power and same with the speed 12 and about handling have you ever driven a 600hp+supra or skyline ? you will b surprised at 500hp what happens to the supras handling it looses the rear end easier than the viper and its weight dist is not perfect for strait line performance either so an "overpowered" supra is also extreemly hard to drive down a drag strip. and wtf do u bring the McLaren into this ? it costs over a million dollars and the TT costs 160K fully loaded. The Mclaren has quad overhead cams compared to the vipers Pushrod motor if you put that much money into the vipers engine that much time and money on fine turing the vipers chasis you would have a million dollar viper making over 800hp naturally asperated easily with time managed valve lift control with variable profile overhead cams but its all about the $/hp/weight ratio and the viper wins that one. And about handling ? the viper isnt an F1 car but its decent and gettin better and it is still drivable at over 600 hp and with simple suspension and brake upgrades it does excellent on a track but then again you could get traction assist on it with variable power sent to each dif in case you lost the rear end (mclaren) but that would again up the price its important to understand that the viper could b a very different car but its designers coose to make it the car that it is its not because they couldnt do a better job at it
     
  4. Re: This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

    obviously you do not understand the basics of engine design and power curves you could take this car and get rid of the pushrods and make it an overhead cam engine and it would push over 800hp naturally asperated but like a lot of japanese engines and higher reving OHC european engines it would loose much of its low end the supra and skyline make awful low end power and same with the speed 12 and about handling have you ever driven a 600hp+supra or skyline ? you will b surprised at 500hp what happens to the supras handling it looses the rear end easier than the viper and its weight dist is not perfect for strait line performance either so an "overpowered" supra is also extreemly hard to drive down a drag strip. and wtf do u bring the McLaren into this ? it costs over a million dollars and the TT costs 160K fully loaded. The Mclaren has quad overhead cams compared to the vipers Pushrod motor if you put that much money into the vipers engine that much time and money on fine turing the vipers chasis you would have a million dollar viper making over 800hp naturally asperated easily with time managed valve lift control with variable profile overhead cams but its all about the $/hp/weight ratio and the viper wins that one. And about handling ? the viper isnt an F1 car but its decent and gettin better and it is still drivable at over 600 hp and with simple suspension and brake upgrades it does excellent on a track but then again you could get traction assist on it with variable power sent to each dif in case you lost the rear end (mclaren) but that would again up the price its important to understand that the viper could b a very different car but its designers coose to make it the car that it is its not because they couldnt do a better job at it
     
  5. Re:

    any one have any estimates on what kinda power the viper engine would make if it waz an OHC engine ? the 427 cammer which waz a single overhead cam big block made 657hp naturally asperated. It is considered the most powerful engine in history with respect to the technology of its day and the displacement.
     
  6. Re: Re:

    actully, Ford factory specs. were 616hp @ 7500rpm.

    but i don't really care about an OHC est. for this car, i mean look at the cammer, 616hp AT 7500RPM!!?? there you're really loosing the low-end acceleration, thus is why the viper and vette, will have OHV engine, for that (literally) "back-breaking" acceleration. <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>
     
  7. Re:

    the 4.6 manages to maintain good low end and can be ahieved even with the viper and corvette but at a great cost it would require valve timing that would have to b electronically adjusted through the rev range and also lift timing changed so that it would compensate for the loss in low end it would make the viper engine much like the Porsche V10 and lambo V10 imagine a viper engine with all the low end it already has but with more top end and a flatter powerband. The cammers specs depended on the excact intake and carb specs. I have never seen specs or actually seen the car but there is claimed to be a 99 RT-10 in southern cali that has all wheel drive traction controll (same system as in the vette) an active suspension system and heavy engine mods including relocated twin cam shafts and dodge had actually experimented with OHC technology on V10 when chrysler had owned lambourghini at the time but lambos attempts on the V10 were pathetic they did not master their V10 untill they were bought by WV/Audi and got some help from porsche.

    The LT5 engine from GM is one of the finest engines ever made quad cam 350cui V8 405hp with an excellent powerband it had great low, mid range and high end but its success was greatly limited by its high production cost
     
  8. Re: This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

    "But think about what you're saying, a supra or skyline with 1000hp would be able to beat this, which is rated at 800hp, what's your point, a car with MORE hp, would be able to beat this car?"

    So what is your point with saying that the Viper can beat the Ferrari, Porsche, and ect. then? They have less power thatn the Viper. There is a reason that the viper is in the class above them, it has more power. Try looking at the times around handling courses and things like thet. I have never seen a viper in the top ten. It is always loaded with Porsches, BMW's and Ferrari's. Not only that, but what car holds the record for production cars on the Nurenbergring (#$%# the splelling), the Porsche GT3. so lets see hear the viper is better than a Porsche at handling, has more power, yet on the most infamous handling, speed, everything course, yet doesn't beat it. Explain that one you dumb ass. Not only that, but if you ever watch races, which i assume you don't if you think the viper handles better, you would see that according to the telemitry that the viper goes way slower thatn the Porsche's and BMW's int the turns. So lets see hear you pull some courses up that are probally all about speed, not handling, and say look it is better. Yet is not as fast on the handling courses. Seems like the viper can't handle. And by the way why the #$%# am i talking to you morons? YOu stupid people that know nothing about cars and get your info off a website that has too many errors to list. **** OFF.
     
  9. Re: This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

    "Explain that one you dumb ass."
    "YOu stupid people that know nothing about cars and get your info off a website that has too many errors to list. **** OFF."
    -------how old are you ? 12? 13? lol im just j/k yer 15 right?
    yea how do u explain the vipers 2 year strait victory at Nürburging? the Zackspeed racing viper has won it in 2001 and 2002 the 24 hoours of Nürburgingthats right the viper an american car beat the german BMWs and Porsches in their own home coountry and even the skylines and supras were not competition for the viper the Zackspeed took the lead early during the race only to loose it in lap 4 then got the lead back and held it almost for the next 24 hoours and it won the race laps ahead of the porsche in 2nd. (2002 24hrs Nürburging)
    The guy that was doing the commentry on the race actually said that the slower porsches made the race extreemly dangerous for the viper because he had to pass them on countless occasions.
    Yer another 1 of those kids who does not know how to make proper car comparisons and absolutely does not appreciate cars for what they were made to do and how well they accomplish that task. And you think the viper handles bad i bet you havent even been behind the wheel of the viper every one thinks it handles alot worst than it really does ok i admit the early Gen I dont haldle that great but for some reason ppl think it cant do anything on a track b/c it can do good in a strait line the Gen II GTS especially '01 and newer handle excellent and are a lot milder than even the porsche 911 turbo have you ever driven a 911 turb? if you have you will kno what i mean especially when the turb comes spoolin up and kiscks in if your not pointed in the right direction your goin for a long ride and there isnt anything u can do about it the viper on the other hand has a much more effective powerband with reasonable amounts of power where you need it and you dont need to b redlining to get the viper to perform well.

    Comparing Porsches and Vipers is not a sensible comparison especially street cars if u compare the GTS-R to a GT3 racer with all the frills stripped it might start to make sense. But not teh street versions the viper is made for those who grew up in the muscle car era and want a mordern day musscle car that will take almost anything in production in a strait line and can also do some racing on the track once in a while the porsche on the other had in made for those who seek refinement and the frills.
     
  10. Re: This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

    "There is a reason that the viper is in the class above them, it has more power"

    the cars in that comp. are in the same class because they can give close performance to the viper in other catagories (that's probably why MT chose those cars in the comparison)
    Also, the viper may have more power, but keep in mind the 355 weighs about 300lbs. less than the viper, and the 911 only has 50hp less, and it has twin turbos.

    "Try looking at the times around handling courses and things like thet. I have never seen a viper in the top ten."

    "So lets see hear you pull some courses up that are probally all about speed, not handling, and say look it is better"

    SURE <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>

    Circuit de La Sarthe (LeMans)
    LeMans, France
    8.47 Miles
    The first lap time is from a dead stop and the 2nd is taken when the car passes the starting line at the end of the 1st lap.

    Car First Lap Second Lap
    1. 1996 Ferrari F50 4:32.3 4:25.8
    2. 1991 Ferrari F40 4:32.9 4:27.1
    3. 1995 Lamborghini Diablo SE 5.7 4:35.7 4:28.7
    4. 1998 Dodge Viper GTS-R 4:42.1 4:35.5
    5. 2002 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 4:42.8 4:36.0
    6. 1997 Ferrari F355 Spider 4:48.6 4:41.6
    7. 2003 Ford Mustang SVT Cobra 4:52.5 4:45.6
    8. 2003 Mercedes-Benz SL 55 AMG 4:58.7 4:51.7
    9. 1998 Chevrolet Camaro SS 4:58.7 4:51.3
    10. 1994 Toyota Supra Turbo 5:00.2 4:53.4


    Nurburgring GmbH
    Nurburgring, Germany
    14.18 Miles
    The first lap time is from a dead stop and the 2nd is taken when the car passes the starting line at the end of the 1st lap.

    Car First Lap Second Lap
    1. 1998 Mercedes-Benz CLK-GTR 8:25.0 8:20.3
    2. 1994 McLaren F1 8:29.1 8:25.1
    3. 1996 Ferrari F50 8:44.7 8:39.4
    4. 1991 Ferrari F40 8:45.2 8:39.4
    5. 1998 Dodge Viper GTS-R 8:56.3 8:51.0
    6. 2002 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 8:59.5 8:53.6
    7. 1999 Chevrolet Corvette LS1 Hardtop 9:11.2 9:04.4
    8. 1997 Ferrari F355 Spider 9:12.0 9:05.9
    9. 2000 BMW Z8 9:21.5 9:15.4
    10. 1994 Toyota Supra Turbo 9:26.2 9:19.4


    Maybe the race version GT3 is the fastest, but i find it hard to believe the regular GT3 could beat mclaren f1, or F50.
    (BTW, The Viper is in the top ten here) <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>


    "lets see hear the viper is better than a Porsche at handling, has more power, yet on the most infamous handling, speed, everything course, yet doesn't beat it. Explain that one you dumb ass"

    Well it's kind of like what you've been saying "viper is in the class above them" and in this case, the 911GT3 is in the class above the viper, also you're saying "the viper is better than a porsche", well in the comp. i posted it's better than a 911 turbo (and other porsches) now you're trying to compare a GT3 (a car that does 60 in 3.2) to a stock viper (60 in 4.0)? Try comparing it to the 800tt, it would be 2 twin turbo cars vs. each other, and the 800 on street tires does 60 in 3.21. <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>

    Now if you want me to explain why a stock viper can loose to a GT3, besides the cars being in diff. classes, well, maybe it's because the GT3 weighs 474LBS. LESS THAN A VIPER.


    "Seems like the viper can't handle. And by the way why the #$%# am i talking to you morons? YOu stupid people that know nothing about cars"

    You're saying We don't know about cars??? YOU'RE THE ONE SAYING THE VIPER CAN'T HANDLE, WHICH IS BS, (shows how much you know)

    Yes, why are you talking to us?

    I said it once, i'll say it again: do yourself a favor and don't post here again. <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>
     
  11. Re: This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

    Also, bmwm3gtr200, and i quote Bluey when i say this: SHUT UP STUPID NEWBIE.
     
  12. Re: This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

    lol...i was wondering when some-1 else was gonna say that...
     
  13. Re: This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

    "Nurburgring GmbH
    Nurburgring, Germany
    14.18 Miles
    The first lap time is from a dead stop and the 2nd is taken when the car passes the starting line at the end of the 1st lap.

    Car First Lap Second Lap
    1. 1998 Mercedes-Benz CLK-GTR 8:25.0 8:20.3
    2. 1994 McLaren F1 8:29.1 8:25.1
    3. 1996 Ferrari F50 8:44.7 8:39.4
    4. 1991 Ferrari F40 8:45.2 8:39.4
    5. 1998 Dodge Viper GTS-R 8:56.3 8:51.0
    6. 2002 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 8:59.5 8:53.6
    7. 1999 Chevrolet Corvette LS1 Hardtop 9:11.2 9:04.4
    8. 1997 Ferrari F355 Spider 9:12.0 9:05.9
    9. 2000 BMW Z8 9:21.5 9:15.4
    10. 1994 Toyota Supra Turbo 9:26.2 9:19.4"


    Were did you get these times? the same place that you get all of your other information that is way wrong. Pick up a copy of the September 2002 CAR issue. Turn to page 127 and look at the records at the bottom of the page. You will find that Porsche test driver Walter Rohrl ran the course in 7min. 56sec. in a Porsche production 911 GT3, factory spec.
    And now to address the 911 GT3's performance:
    According to the knowledge of EVO magazine issue number 52, Febuary 2003, the 911 GT3 has 360 hp @ 7200 RPM. It did 0-60 in 4.5 sec. That is not the factory 0-60 but what their tester got. Actually the same tester that did 0-60 in 4.3 sec in a BMW M coupe(Euro Spec) so he isn't slow. If you want to call me a newbie fine, but if you get beat by a newbie what does that make you?
     
  14. Re: This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

    "obviously you do not understand the basics of engine design and power curves you could take this car and get rid of the pushrods and make it an overhead cam engine and it would push over 800hp naturally asperated but like a lot of japanese engines and higher reving OHC european engines it would loose much of its low end the supra and skyline make awful low end power and same with the speed 12 and about handling have you ever driven a 600hp+supra or skyline ? you will b surprised at 500hp what happens to the supras handling it looses the rear end easier than the viper and its weight dist is not perfect for strait line performance either so an "overpowered" supra is also extreemly hard to drive down a drag strip. and wtf do u bring the McLaren into this ? it costs over a million dollars and the TT costs 160K fully loaded. The Mclaren has quad overhead cams compared to the vipers Pushrod motor if you put that much money into the vipers engine that much time and money on fine turing the vipers chasis you would have a million dollar viper making over 800hp naturally asperated easily with time managed valve lift control with variable profile overhead cams but its all about the $/hp/weight ratio and the viper wins that one. And about handling ? the viper isnt an F1 car but its decent and gettin better and it is still drivable at over 600 hp and with simple suspension and brake upgrades it does excellent on a track but then again you could get traction assist on it with variable power sent to each dif in case you lost the rear end (mclaren) but that would again up the price its important to understand that the viper could b a very different car but its designers coose to make it the car that it is its not because they couldnt do a better job at it."

    Moron, obvously you do not understand engineering. If you did you would know that what determines power of an engine is not if it has OVHC or a push rod. It is the design of the intake, the compresion, the timing, and so forth. The reason cars have OVHC's is that they are more reliable, and they cause less of a lose of pwer to the wheels. Remember it takes more power to run a push rod system than an OVHC system. Why, it takes energy from the crank to run a pully that spins the cam that pushes the rod that rocks the rocker arm wich pushes the valve. So in the case of a push rod engine energy is lost in two extra places, the rod, and the rocker arm. so the OVHC engines get more power to the pavement than the push rod engines. A small amount, but still they get more. Also RELIABILTY like i said before is improved. What any engineer should strive for if possible, and was met by many companys with large hp to littter ratios such as BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari somewhat, and then there are also the likes of Toyota, Honda, ana Acura representing Japan.
     
  15. Re: This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

    "the same place that you get all of your other information that is way wrong."

    if you think motortrend does something wrong.....ok

    Speaking of motortrend, the specs. i got of the GT3, were from there, but it was the GT3R. On page 156 of the Nov. 2002 issue, gt3r: 410hp, 60 in 3.2 and 1/4 in 11.2. Now i did see the specs. of the 360hp gt3, they were the same #'s you gave, and i find it hard to believe a car with those #'s can be faster around a track than a mclaren or F50.

    "but if you get beat by a newbie what does that make you?"

    I wouldn't know, hasn't happened. <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>


     
  16. Re: This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

    OVHC, never heard of that?? (over valve head cam?) it's either ohc, or ohv, or dohc.

    "so the OVHC engines get more power to the pavement than the push rod engines. A small amount, but still they get more"

    well, ohc engines do that, but the more hp they get over ohv engines is in the high rpms. (they get none of that good ohv low end accel.)
     
  17. Re: This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

    "the same place that you get all of your other information that is way wrong."

    if you think motortrend does something wrong.....ok

    Speaking of motortrend, the specs. i got of the GT3, were from there, but it was the GT3R. On page 156 of the Nov. 2002 issue, gt3r: 410hp, 60 in 3.2 and 1/4 in 11.2. Now i did see the specs. of the 360hp gt3, they were the same #'s you gave, and i find it hard to believe a car with those #'s can be faster around a track than a mclaren or F50.

    "but if you get beat by a newbie what does that make you?"

    I wouldn't know, hasn't happened.


    Ok kids...Fine, bang on him because of a typo. Wees al dun gon dat a time o to. And the numbers are irrelevant by themselves (combine all the diffrent figures from all the mags., ad them up/divide & get the average). You know, Desktop Racing.
    Two people fighting over the authenticity and accuracy of second or third hand information makes me laugh. I would, however, take the info from CAR or EVO over MotorTrend. The majority of specs from MotorTrend come from the manufacturer, not expensive multiday track/tech sessions. Manufacturer specs are, by nature, skewed (marketing, hurried tests, no tests w/ est. results, etc...). MotorTrend is notorious for being misleading,and basically a jumble of rather abrasive toiletpaper.
    This has nothing to do w/ American vs. Euro mags., just the diffrence between good & bad journalism. I used to read EuropeanCar quite a bit, but in '99 the staff started changing, and the publisher got much bigger, and the articles began to suck. CarAndDriver still rocks, Automobile is nice, and GrassRootsMotorsports is killer...
    BMW is correct in his theories as well, regardless of what you may perceive as true, one cannot dispute mathmatical fact.
    Do some real reading on mechanical theory, fluid dynamics and the like.
    We often like to compare object 'A' w/ object 'B' to bring some definition into our lives. When comparing, we form opinions and beliefs, thus our defined selves.
    Many times, we compare apples to oranges. Case in point: Viper vs. Porsche. Both sports cars, both rwd, choice of forced or N/A, etc... But they are really uncomparable, because of the beliefs and direction supporting the creators. Porsches will be happy to tear around town all day reving up & hiding in traffic when cops role by. The Hennessy will scare bikers. But try to even drive it in a straight line. I know, I drove my bosses GTS, a beautiful blue coupe w/ black leather interior. It reminded me of riding in my cousin's 79 bird w/ a wonkin 454. Shakey and scarry! The cars are focused in diffrent directions. Maybe a debate over a TVR speed 6 & Viper Hennessy w/b better...no, wait, the speed 6 only has 6 cylinders (someone would argue about that undoubtably).
    I don't think we can argue over the talents of the engineers and developers either. Some people prefer pushrod to ohc/v. There are really no advantages of rods vs. ohc though. Just supply of parts, comfort of builder, and the 'Keepin it Real' factor. OHC engines can rev much higher and achieve more hp, ultimatly. I'm not saying the LS1 or Hemi or 5.0 or any of the great American engines are bad. There are masterpieces in all forms of art and there are piles of shite too.
    Get over it.
    You only had one post sometime in your life.
    Either help the hobby & culture by being open to debate & question, to help advance theory & idea... or get the phuc out.
    Word.
     
  18. Re: This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

    "Speaking of motortrend, the specs. i got of the GT3, were from there, but it was the GT3R. On page 156 of the Nov. 2002 issue, gt3r: 410hp, 60 in 3.2 and 1/4 in 11.2. Now i did see the specs. of the 360hp gt3, they were the same #'s you gave, and i find it hard to believe a car with those #'s can be faster around a track than a mclaren or F50."

    First off what I was saying is that your numbers are wrong. I then proved that they were wrong by quoting from a highly reliable source the offical numbers.(A magazine that constantly beats the american ones to the story sometimes up to 6 months. And they have interviews in it all the time by the peole who designed the car. When was the last time C&D interviewed the designer of the F1? Try Febuary 2003 for Evo.) Your numbers are obviously wrong. Try getting your info from a more reliable source, or prove it's reliability like I have.

    Next the typo, so when i write sometimes I mess up and write OVHC which is what I used to think the abrevation for it was when I was younger, and would only look at a magazine on cars once every couple of months. So all I new was that they used an abreviation for Over Head Cam, and came up with OVHC for what it maybe.

    For my age what does that matter? If I have an informed opinion as I do it is just as credible as no matter if I am 10 or 100.

    To volvolysol (lol) nice job. +1 if I could. Nice job bring some sort of middle ground to this debate.

    Peace Out Y'all
     
  19. Re: This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

    OHC engines only make more high end not the low end you need that the pushrods give you the only OHC engines that give you some low end are the 4.6 SOHC and DOHC ford engines and the 5.7 LT-5 as for japanese and european OHC engines they make their power only at the higher end which is pretty useless because how often do u c people driving around the street almost redlining their car ? and if you do drive like that the reliability factor is lost where as with pushrods you do not have to be redlining to get power from the engine. "OVHC(im sure you mean OHC" engines get more power to the pavement than the push rod engines " >> not true that is the most famous myth about the OHC engine ive seen from experience that pushrod engines with same or close displacement to the OHC engine almost alwayz wins in a race because of low end that pushrods have.

    "Why, it takes energy from the crank to run a pully that spins the cam that pushes the rod that rocks the rocker arm wich pushes the valve. So in the case of a push rod engine energy is lost in two extra places, the rod, and the rocker arm"
    ohc engines still have to run off the crankshaft! and a lot of times it would mean an extra camshaft.

    viper 1426, i hate to pick on my fellow viper fans but what is an OHV engine ? overhead valve? pushrod engines and OHC engines are all overhead valve engines.

    you cant rely on mags for every thing about cars you will often be suprised with the difference from what you hear about a car and when you actually drive it. MT always concentrates on the handling difference between the Viper and Vette but in reality the difference is only noticible by a professional driver and not significant enough to affect the avg viper or vette owner and same goes for the power just because a car has a max output of 350hp that doesnt mean any thing it might redline at 7200 and get its max at 7100 so wahat are you doing to do launch it at 7100? or drive around town keeping it in the 7000range? i dont think so and if you do drive like that can plz i be your mechanic ? the viper and most pushrod motors make most of their power at low end and mid range wiht the exception of a few OHC engines like the LT5 and 289ford.
     
  20. Re:

    "But they are really uncomparable, because of the beliefs and direction supporting the creators. Porsches will be happy to tear around town all day reving up & hiding in traffic when cops role by. The Hennessy will scare bikers. But try to even drive it in a straight line. I know, I drove my bosses GTS, a beautiful blue coupe w/ black leather interior. It reminded me of riding in my cousin's 79 bird w/ a wonkin 454. Shakey and scarry! The cars are focused in diffrent directions. Maybe a debate over a TVR speed 6 & Viper Hennessy w/b better...no, wait, the speed 6 only has 6 cylinders (someone would argue about that undoubtably)"


    Ive tried way too many times to tell ppl on here why you cant compare cars that were not meant to be compared but trust me people dont get it.
    What year was that GTS your drove ? the pre '01s are very different in comparison to the newer vipers and the SRT-10 id love to get my hand on an srt and see what it drives like but havent had the opportunity yet.

     
  21. Re: This vs Jap cars like...AB-flug Supra & Veilside Supra, ect.

    "OHC engines only make more high end not the low end you need that the pushrods give you the only OHC engines that give you some low end are the 4.6 SOHC and DOHC ford engines and the 5.7 LT-5 as for japanese and european OHC engines they make their power only at the higher end which is pretty useless because how often do u c people driving around the street almost redlining their car ? and if you do drive like that the reliability factor is lost where as with pushrods you do not have to be redlining to get power from the engine. "OVHC(im sure you mean OHC" engines get more power to the pavement than the push rod engines " >> not true that is the most famous myth about the OHC engine ive seen from experience that pushrod engines with same or close displacement to the OHC engine almost alwayz wins in a race because of low end that pushrods have.

    "Why, it takes energy from the crank to run a pully that spins the cam that pushes the rod that rocks the rocker arm wich pushes the valve. So in the case of a push rod engine energy is lost in two extra places, the rod, and the rocker arm"
    ohc engines still have to run off the crankshaft! and a lot of times it would mean an extra camshaft.

    viper 1426, i hate to pick on my fellow viper fans but what is an OHV engine ? overhead valve? pushrod engines and OHC engines are all overhead valve engines.

    you cant rely on mags for every thing about cars you will often be suprised with the difference from what you hear about a car and when you actually drive it. MT always concentrates on the handling difference between the Viper and Vette but in reality the difference is only noticible by a professional driver and not significant enough to affect the avg viper or vette owner and same goes for the power just because a car has a max output of 350hp that doesnt mean any thing it might redline at 7200 and get its max at 7100 so wahat are you doing to do launch it at 7100? or drive around town keeping it in the 7000range? i dont think so and if you do drive like that can plz i be your mechanic ? the viper and most pushrod motors make most of their power at low end and mid range wiht the exception of a few OHC engines like the LT5 and 289ford."

    You are right that most OHC engines get their power in the upper rpm's, but that is because of the way the engine is deigned. If you were to take two engines that were identical except one had an OHC and the other a push rod they would make the same power at the same places. The only difference in power will be that the pushrod uses more power from the engine to run the cams and valves ect. Teh reason is that OHC engines, like i said before, have less parts that absorb energy which is the same as power for those less scientifically informed. Also good note on the OHV, that was bothersome, but eveyone is allowed to make mistakes in abvr.

    You don't launch the car at 7000 rpm, you do it at the torque's peak, or just below it so you do not burn out. Torque is what gets the car moving not hp, so launching there would do nothing realy, maybe burn out since the amount of torque at that level combined with the sudden accelartion of the wheels would cause it to burn out.

    Of course you can't rely on magazines completely. The magazines are also testing two different versions of the car in most cases. The majority of european carmakers make different versions for america than what is in europe. For example the E36 M3 in europe had 320 hp, in america it had 240. So comparing what an american version of a car from europe to one that is american is like comparing a Taurus SE to a 528i, and then saying the 528i would is better than the SHO based on the numbers of the SE. That isn't fair, or accurate. so that is one reason i tend to go with european magazines over american for performance specs on european car makers. I also use them to get the ratings for american cars though since there realy aren't power differences between euro versions of american cars and domestic that i have realy noticed yet, but then again there are probaly some out there. That is why I usually double check my numbers, if possible, with the american mags. There is a big difference from what you read to what you feel when you drive. Like you said the difference in most cases is not noticed by people other than professionals. These people will notice the difference though because they do take many cars to the limit, and what they report on is how the car deals at the limit. This is what racecar drivers do aswell when they are saying that a car is not handling right. Not only that, but the way they drive the car has a lot to do with it. If they are a person that tries to brake as late as you can everytime in a corner, then the handling will be different than if they brake at the point that gets them through the turn as quick as possible. So if a driver for a magazine drives five cars, the one that matches his driving best will probaly be the fastest seeing how they usually compare cars that are similar to one another in performance. That brings up another reason why I choose Evo and Car over the rest, they usually have testers that like the way that type of car drives, not just some generic driver for all of the cars.

    Peace Out Y'all
     
  22. Re:

    "You are right that most OHC engines get their power in the upper rpm's, but that is because of the way the engine is deigned. If you were to take two engines that were identical except one had an OHC and the other a push rod they would make the same power at the same places. The only difference in power will be that the pushrod uses more power from the engine to run the cams and valves ect. Teh reason is that OHC engines, like i said before, have less parts that absorb energy which is the same as power for those less scientifically informed. Also good note on the OHV, that was bothersome, but eveyone is allowed to make mistakes in abvr"
    actually they both would not make the same power in the same places the pushrod would have more max torque and make most of its torque at a lower rev range yea hp is great for bragging rights but we all know that torque and low end hp is what really counts not how much hp a car makes just before redlining.

    "Evo and Car over the rest, they usually have testers that like the way that type of car drives, not just some generic driver for all of the cars"
    > true but u still cant really judge a car unless you drive it didfferent people drive differently and look for different things in a car and what might seem like a great car to your might seem like a terrible car to me ie. motortrend tested the viper and vette by two different drives one guy absolutley loved the vette and hated the viper and on guy loved the viper and absolutely hated the vette.

    and i also agree with what u said about different specs the euro spec viper is pretty different from the US spec and a Jap spec or euro spec Skyline would make an avg of 175+ hp compared to if you imported it stateside and many times in comparison tests cars designed to meet different specs are tested side by side.
     
  23. Re: Re:

    "viper 1426, i hate to pick on my fellow viper fans but what is an OHV engine ? overhead valve? pushrod engines and OHC engines are all overhead valve engines. "


    ummm.....Yeah, a pushrod engine goes by OHV (because it's overhead valve) lol, i even looked in a motortrend issue for a viper, and yes OHV is what they go by (just to make sure)

    also for the person who said motortrend gets thier info from the manufactor, NOT TRUE. motortrend tests pretty much all the cars they get thier hands on (there's even pics. of the testing in the mags. and on MT tv, they show that)


    So lets all agree to ............agree. <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>
     

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