American Car Fans- READ

Discussion in '2003 Ford Mustang SVT Cobra' started by SeansVette, Sep 10, 2002.

  1. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    Ignorence? Lets try this I gave you stats by a guy that can drive and tested out cars for 1999. While the stats you gave here are as a worthless as ever. It's by people that can't drive rear wheel drive. Lets see If the wagon is 4/all (what ever) wheel drive then it's easy rev up really high and drop. If you try that with an American car then your going to spin out in place for a while and get a shitty ass time. God damn my friend owns a 02 WS6 and he ran 13.23 at the track and his car is ****ing stock so why are you trying to tell me our cars can't do this when we know they can. You go post your shit how I don't try to learn anything but your the only one arguing the facts that american cars are that fast cause it would pain you to admit it. Also I don't really care how a corvette was in 1989. And I'm anoid with the crap that you say it's only makeing this much power with a bigger displacement. Tool if you knew anything you would know that the bigger displacement the more power you can squeze out of it. So while your tunning a 2.4 to it's max our engines still have a long way to go before they top out, but it's more economical for us to just leave them half way and not worry about squezeing every hp out of an engine. Oh and you are complaining. See the difference between your argument and mine is. You run a 2.4 with turbos putting out 300hp we do that with a 4.6 no turbos, now imagine what would happen if we added turbos on. Want me to go through this really easy as what you can do to the car to make it faster and what we can do. This is hypethetical but you should get the point

    Your car 3.0(-) with turbo 300 hp
    our cars 4.6(+) makeing 300 hp

    you upgrade your turbos makeing maybe 500 hp
    we add a turbo makeing 500 hp
    we add a good turbo we make 650 hp

    who's going to win?
    think about it.

    Your probebly going to give me some crap about gearing, weight, your all mighty 4 wheel drive etc the only thing i'm talking about is the engine and turbos the rest of the crap isn't going in to this.

    OH and one last thing rear wheel drive is better then 4 wheel on the track but you have to know how to use it, if the average joe revs up and drops his timing is going to be shit, but if a pro does it then the timeing would be better then what you could get out of 4 wheel drive. Since my friend can do much better with his WS6 then the times you posted by almost a whole second then those times ain't shit so get over it
     
  2. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    Why the hell do you keep bringing up the GTR?!? It's not sold in America, so who cares? The mustang Cobra is the only $30,000 car that will run 12's in the quarter mile while still being an amazing handling car, believe it or not.
     
  3. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    Ahhh, but it is....

    I bring up the GTR as there are items on the GTR I wish domestics had.....
     
  4. #204 27GTR, Jan 25, 2003
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Re: American Car Fans- READ

    The more you speak, the less credible you exhibit yourself.

    Those times are from Car and Driver, Road and Track, and MMFF. If you`re friend is a better driver than their drivers, I`m sure he wouldn`t be worrying about a WS6.

    "I have a friend...blah, blah, blah" I`m sure he goes for regular runs in his 959 as well....

    Don`t need to upgrade the turbos to make 500HP. Motorex already has them making 610HP TO THE WHEELS on stock turbines, stock motors. Can you make 600HP to the wheels on a stock engine? Think not. Not even the Viper can do that. GTR`s have been tuned to more than 1300HP on the RB26DETT block. Australia (extermini I believe it was) pulled 715AWHP on stock internals....can a V8 do that? Take a look at the LIST of things Hennessey replaces in his 800TT motors....and how much does it cost again?
    Slapping a turbo on a non-reinforced (read N/A) engine might last you to the end of the block...before you melt something. Ask any tuner of Domestic engines...the internals are the first things to go after the ancilliaries. And read the previous message again. Nissan made 280 (just shy of 300) in a 2.6L N/A in the RB26DE!

    You can`t even keep your displacements straight...it`s 2.6 making 320 HP or 450HP in the N1. By the way, the above quoted HP are on the R34, not the R34 N1, which has forged steel internals.....

    Go back to school. AWD is BETTER on the track than RWD. That`s why it has been disallowed in Bathhurst, JGTC and another of other series as they`re trying to keep the game fair. This is dictated by Physics.... Is it coincidence that the fastest production cars in this list ( http://bmwdeler.no/nordschleife.html) are AWD? Many manufacturers don`t use it because they`re stuck in the stigmata of RWD sports cars (Ferrari), or are afraid to add weight to their already heavy cars.
     
  5. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    Again, retardisms and lack of general automotive knowledge.

    The made 20 L88`s in `67. It was a race car. It would be like comparing a R390 to a Corvette. It`s absolute ridiculum.

    On top of ALL this, you couldn`t even drive that car on the street! It would simply overheat.
     
  6. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    God your dumb first of all I didn't care to give the exact displacement it was all in theory, yes there are engines that can do much more then 500hp N/A over 600 hp and i'll get you the link to that later in a few days or so. If you want go see the mustang boss, or the zl1 camaro, for now. Now when it comes to real drag raceing and your useing slicks awd is not better. You have enough traction with slicks it's street tires where awd can be better unless your good at driving rear wheel drive, and you can rev up a car a little as to not spin out but still manage a good start. I'll try to find the link to this later for you, but for now you'd just have to take my word on it even though i know you wont cause you refuse to belive what ever I say cause your to stuborn and like twisting my words around but, a rear wheel drive diablo does better then the awd diablo they made with a little more power. Why do you think that is? Your link that you posted also doesn't work. Oh yeah the link that i gave you before where the cars were tested in 1999 many many times to get the best timeing you can. See how the vr4 got a much better 0-30 and 0-60 then the camaro but not a better 1/4 mile time. Why is that? They have the same Hp camaro has more tourque but you got awd and the f-bird with the same numbers got an even better time but the stats were all the same. The nsx with less power and rear wheel drive did a lot better too. Think that if japan is moveing towards awd sport cars it doesn't make much sence that the nsx is rear wheel drive. Yes of the line the awd tracktion is better but in a 1/4 time a real drag race awd will worsen the performance of a car. DO you honestly think ferari gives a **** if it's car is rear wheel drive or all wheel drive. I doubt it as long as it can performe better in the end and rear wheel drive does that and who cares about weight if a car can still performe better right. Would you care if your care weighed more but would run better times because you have awd? NO you wouldn't, but it doesn't work like that because rwd is better in the end, if anything you are the one that has a lot to learn about cars.
     
  7. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    You disproved your own theory for yourself.

    Why is the VR4 slower in the quarter?....it weighs 2 tons. Why did it get off the line so fast, even though it was so much heavier? More traction. Do a figure on lbs/HP. I bet the SS wins by a good margin.

    In terms of the Diablo....Yes, the 575/630 HP/ft-lbs 1460kg RWD Diablo is faster than the 1700KG VT with 492/428. The VT has an 80HP deficit, 200ft-lbs deficit and an extra 300kg (that`s a rounded 600lbs...IE SOME SERIOUS WEIGHT) Now even if you were talking about the VT 6.0, it has 550/620 and an extra 200kg over the RWD. I think you picked an abysmal comparison.

    The reason it`s not used in drag is simple....ECONOMICS!
    2 diffs, possibly 3 get expensive, it`s also more parts to break
    None of the cars that participate in U.S. drags come with 4wd...so are you going to try to add it? I bet if one of the competitors, say the Cobra, started chalking up AWD....you`d find they all follow suit REAL quickly.
    Take, for example, Japan. The GTR is QUITE easy to disable it`s AWD system for racing....do they? No. Why? AWD is the better system. More traction...PERIOD. What is the name of the game in racing, track or quarter? If you don`t say weight and traction, you don`t know racing.
    It`s weight problem isn`t such a problem when you consider an R32 GTR (with it`s semi-AWD weighs less than a C5 Corvette, SS, or Cobra.

    Take two SS`s, the cars are identical in ALL aspects save RWD vs AWD. The AWD car will be both A) faster and B) More consistant in it`s handling and quarter mile times.
    Slicks make no difference. Take the same two SS`s... put the same compound on both cars...the AWD with slicks on four corners will have TWICE the traction of the RWD car. Not to mention you will be able to store TWICE the potential energy in the walls of your slicks.
    FACT
    ...and since 97% of drivetrain loss is BEFORE the differentials, the 6 or 7 hp difference won`t make up for that six feet you lost getting off the line....
     
  8. #208 8SecStang, Jan 28, 2003
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Re: American Car Fans- READ

    See that's very good you almost had me <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A> but not there yet, you missed one thing in your theory about the 2 camaros and every other comparoson with awd and rwd but i'll show you the camaro cause i'm short on time and you'd get the point. YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE GOOD WITH THE BAD. I'll show you. See here is the thing the SL version of 3000 GT is almost exactly the same as the VR4. Differences are VR4 weighs more due to AWD system and the turbo which is what another 50 pounds or so tops, oh and obviously the hp but that's the turbo adding it. Anyways here is what i'm getting at.
    The SL curb weight 3263
    The VR4 curb weight 3737

    K now that's a difference of 474 pounds so i'll take off another 50 or so due to the turbo and the awd just added 424 pounds.

    The z28 coupe (couldn't find the ss weight but i'm sure it's the same or with in 50 pounds or so) curb weight is 3439.

    Makeing the VR4 weigh 298 pounds more, now if because of that weight the VR 4 couldn't beat the camaro. Imagine what would happen if you took 2 camaros exactly alike and you added awd to one of them but kept the other one stock you would have a good 400+ pounds of weight added on, and since weight is such a problem you then are wrong about the awd camaro beating the rwd camaro. Sure the awd could have more constent times but the rwd would be better. Drag raceing the rwd is better plain and simple. Oh and your comment or slicks is also off. If you don't have the power to excede the traction provided by slicks on a rwd car then it's pointless to have awd. Because you are still getting a good launch with out loseing traction, and you don't have the added weight of awd.

    You can see the curb weight for both cars at these links.

    http://reports.intellichoice.com/reports/sponsors/NATIONAL/frameset.asp?SPON=national&DEFSPON=CV&PROD=1&REPORT=9941001&TRID=0&P1=0&YEAR=1999&MAKE=Mitsubishi&MODEL=3000GT


    http://reports.intellichoice.com/reports/sponsors/NATIONAL/frameset.asp?SPON=national&DEFSPON=CV&PROD=1&REPORT=9917008&TRID=0&P1=0&YEAR=1999&MAKE=Chevrolet&MODEL=Camaro
     
  9. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    First, turbo does not add 50 lbs....and AWD does not add 400. More likely the VR4 had a great deal of chassis stiffening...This one I will look into....

    The extra diff on the GTR weighs 38 lbs. The front shafts weigh 9 pounds each. That's an addition of about 60lbs.

    Turbo's weigh less than 15 lbs for the two of them (Nissan's anyway), the extra tubing (according to my shipping receipt on my hard pipe kit) weighs less than 7 pounds.

    If turbos and AWD are so heavy, why does a C5 weigh more than an R32?

    ...and when was the last time you saw someone NOT spin tires in a drag competition?....

     
  10. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    First i gave you the 50 lbs as a benifit of the doubt in your case. I knew it couldn't of been that heavy but i've heard people ***** about how their turbos weighed almost like 50 pounds and I didn't wanna get involved in that dumb argument again. Next the awd is that heavy check out audi's quatro. It weighs a lot!! More then the 400 pounds that i've listed for the vr4 which is by far not out of range but infact just about right as to what awd weighs. The reason for the r32 weighing less then the c5r. I don't know first maybe you wanna give me the difference. Next it could be the way the vettes chassy is built the type of material, the bigger block that it holds. There are way to many things to pin point the exact reason why a vette weighs more. Also people that spin their tires before the race do it to warm up their tires, warm tires give you better traction. SO if you see a vette rev up to 7k and drop it's for that reason. On the strip you want to drop a rwd car at about 3 1/2K to 4K rpms that's a fact, and i've seen many vipers, vettes on the track not spin their tires when they leave. To spin your tires on the track if you have slicks on A) you are dumb, or your car has insane power.
     
  11. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    I have yet to see a single RWD car not spin tires when it left the line. Warming slicks improves traction, but I wasn`t talking about warming slicks....I was talking about racing. I have yet to see a single car (that wasn`t stock or almost as such) not spin tires on the track. Don`t make me break out physics to show it to you. Drag radial coefficients are pretty easy to pull up......

    As for comparison, in the USCC why did a 510-515HP Viper get outrun by a similar weighing (if not heavier) R33 with 505HP on the drag strip when they were both wearing the same tires (compound/not width) in three consecutive runs? Why did the R33 hit 11.6 each time while the numbers for the Viper were eratic including a fastest time of 12.2 even with a more experienced driver behind the wheel of the Viper? One word: TRACTION These tires by the way were street slicks....or as a number of people say....DOT approved.
     
  12. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    it's chassis not chassy. and Bored up is right, I have yet to see a RWD car not spin the tires off the line as well.

    p.s. you forgot B)you didn't start from idle.
     
  13. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    Then you have never seen a drag race, or you have never seen a good driver, either way it happens all the time (rwd's not spinning when leaving the line). Like it or not rwd is better suited for drag racing.
     
  14. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    for drag racing fine, but drag racing is for nothing more than compensating for genitalial mass, or lack thereof, for real driving conditions AWD is better suited. Actually no, I take it back, AWD generally gets off the line faster, you can pop the clutch at a much higher rpm without spinning the tires, resulting in more power and traction to the ground off the start, equating to a faster start, which leads to faster acceleration, therefore AWD is better suited for drag racing, just more difficult to keep pointed in a straight line (even AWD's spin their tires in the higher classes for drag racing).

    Anyway, I consider the good ol' folks in NHRA to be far more experienced than you (r u claiming they're not?), and the only time I've seen a RWD NOT spin the tires off the start, was when the driver started from idle, and as you should well know, starting from idle generally leads to slower 1/4 times.
     
  15. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    I agree with you 100%.
     
  16. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    but again, the problem with that comparison is that 70% of that 90% would say the Civic would win because the Civic IS faster. It's not known for being an excellent race car in its class for nothing.

    Don't believe me? look at acceleration specs for the Civic SI vs. the Cavalier, and as the vast majority of import fans know, the SI is slow for the Civic.
     
  17. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    In 24hr. LeMans many of the cars are AWD, we've already been through this debate, I posted a link to a site about the 24 hr. LeMans the link showed just how many cars are AWD, and which cars won last season. The conversation dropped there.

    GT Racing....hmm didn't Audi win last season? AWD isn't allowed in the other classes.

    um...recent Lamborghini entries have been AWD, we've already also been throught the drivetrain hp loss argument as well, turned out that hp loss on AWD drivetrains was considerably less than most people thought, including those who were arguing for AWD (such as myself).

    In the early '90's Audi also had an entry in the well known TA racing series, the car was banned because it had AWD (it won almost all the races up until that point). Also, in the early '80's AWD was banned from LeMans (temporarily) because after Audi dominated the series 3 years in a row (as the only AWD cars), I believe all three cars made it an all Audi podium 3 years in a row before AWD was deemed "...an unfair advantage".

    Racing has nothing to do with real driving conditions, any type of driving condition you'll experience on public roads on any given day of the year constitutes 'real driving conditions'.

    AWD is Mechanically OR electronically controlled (sometimes both), and it means that all the wheels are going to be used with just as much power going to each one at all times, except for when one wheel starts to slip, then power is shifted (instantly in the better AWD designs, like Subaru, Audi, and Nissan) to the tires with grip.

    And as for your drag slicks, you might as well be using a top fuel dragster then, as you can't drive that car on the street with drag slicks on anyway, so what's the use? I'd rather drive to the drag strip in a car that costs the same, blow away a few of the Mustangs and Camaros there, then leave the strip, and race one of those same Mustangs and Camaros on my favourite road, again blowing them away, then go enter a rally race, I'd rather do all that, than be able to beat a few imports at the strip and not be able to leave the dragstrip until after I change the tires.

    BTW - Cobbtuning has a mid 9's modified WRX (just barely streetlegal) that will do the same time (might even be quicker, I can't remember for sure, but it's 1/4 time was definitely below 9.7, I think it was 9.35, but don't quote me on that) at 138mph with high traction street tires and absolutely no wheelspin whatsoever (though all 4 wheels chirp at the start of each run, there's no actual wheelspin)
     
  18. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    Doesn't change the fact that rwd is still 100 times better for drag racing password. Also it's better for almost anytype of racing out there (except rally, I'd think that awd would be better for that).
    Think about it, almost all race cars (indy, f1, nascar, le mans, trans am, etc...) are rwd. Why is that?
    1.Cheaper.
    2.Lighter.
    3.Less power loss.
    4.Less to break with rwd.
    5.Usually better handling.
     
  19. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    Again, in one of the well known Trans Am championships, Audi was entered with an AWD car and was banned because the AWD was too good, the Audi won the majority of events until it was banned, so there goes your theory about RWD being better for Trans Am, in LeMans AWD has proven its superiority, not to mention the early 1980's fiascle in which AWD was banned because it was an "unfair advantage", with Nascar I would imagine RWD is better, because handling bears little effect on the outcome, as does how quickly you get off the line, with F1 and Indy, some teams are trying to improve already designed AWD systems that won't interfere with the weight distribution of the cars, in a few years they may succeed, and we'll see AWD enter F1 fully, in Drag racing it's debatable whether RWD or AWD is better, so stop saying it's "100 times better" because it's going to turn into another endless debate, both RWD and AWD have their advantages and disadvantages for Drag racing.

    FYI - AWD is better for Rally racing, however for entry level drivers, RWD or FWD are better to enter in, because the competition is less fierce, thought there's huge debate whether FWD or RWD is better, I think they're both on equal footing for rallying, but FWD is better to enter in because fewer people know how to drive a FWD car well, both have as much potential as rally cars though.

    1) it is cheaper, that's true
    2) it is lighter as well, but the gap is decreasing considerably, and the majority of manufacturers who make AWD cars generally make lighter cars than the manufacturers who make RWD cars
    3) the power loss in well designed drivetrains bears no noticeable difference to the majority of RWD drivetrains
    4) Well designed AWD systems don't break down as often as RWD (though it's true, there is still more to break, but they often are more solidly designed)
    5) RWD is rarely better handling, even on paved surfaces, when it is, it's due more to the overall car than the drivetrain (i.e. NSX, Lotus, Porsche, BMW)
     
  20. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    In the hay day of drag racing (50s, 60's) AWD was tried, alot, and failed alot. It's not suited for drag racing, trust me on this, it is better to have rwd for drag racing.
    RWD for now is the better choice for almost all racing period, thats why its used for almost all types of racing.
     
  21. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    No, RWD is not better for any type of racing. It's the established medium. Most races outlaw AWD as it creates an unfair advantage. Look at the fastest cars on the Nurburgring....How many examples are there of a lower powered AWD vehicle schooling a much higher powered RWD vehicle. Even better....what are the fastest production vehicles?...and their layouts?

    YOU CANNOT CHANGE THE LAWS OF PHSYSICS. AWD has more traction and therefore can utilize more power coming out of the turn much earlier which is the primary concern in any track race. There is no escaping this fact. You can hem and haw all you want about this race and that race...but physics are physics. Two cars, same everything except drivetrain layout, the AWD will be faster around the track.
    By the way...for drag racing....Any idea how much those huge tires w/ soft compounds weigh? How much they cost?

    The only reason they don't use RWD in drag racing in the U.S. is simple....the established cars (Ford, Chevy, Dodge etc) all are EXCLUSIVELY RWD perfomance cars. Go to Japan...what do they use? AWD.
    Again...pick up this months issue of USCC. A Viper with more torque, more HP vs a heavier GTR with AWD. They both are running tires with the same compound. The results? 11.6 (twice) for the GTR, 12.2 (best run) for the Viper. Tell me how RWD is better again?

     
  22. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    Drag radials don't help you on the street.

    9.55 with drag radials.....

    How about 8.73 on street radials?
     
  23. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    As was the GTR that ran the 8.73......
     
  24. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    people, may i present to u the MOST ignorant asshole that ive ever seen!!!
     
  25. Re: American Car Fans- READ

    I've met worse.
     

Share This Page