Re: He could easily be right. I'm sick of tools thinking Since I have twice as many cylinders you must be twice as fast right? Don't get me wrong, Camaros are defintley one of my favorite cars but when I see douches say "japs suck", "they take more money to mod up" I have to say something. I say the same when A kid in his pimped out civic says american cars cant handle or they break down. Thats just not true,,many american cars can really take the turns, espcially vips an vettes. Another thing, QUIT COMPARING A STOCK CIVIC ECONO-CAR TO A CAMARO, do I compare a supra to a 4 cylinder cavalier? My point to the above, 90-99 eclipes and talons are one of the cheapest and fastest cars to modify period (yah, thats outta anything v-8 what have you). I know your probaly laughing but if you actually go to most tracks you'll see quite a few whipping some ass. Why are they good you ask, Like almost all forced Induction engines, they are built up from the factory. They can easily take 450 hp on stock internals daily driven. Factor in AWD launches at 5500 RPMS and 22 PSI you see you have a real car. THAT IS WHY ALOT OF IMPORTS ARE FASTER AND CHEAPER SPEED THEN ANY DOMESTICS. STI's, evos, dsm's,supra,rx-7,wrx,300z's,mr'2. Many of these cars can more then double or even triple their horsepower with TOTALLY stock internals and just turned up boost. Lets give an example so im not just talking out of my ass like alot of the 15 yearold bench racers I see online You can pick up a 92 Turbo AWD eclipse for $1,500 average. Most people run a 14.6-14.9 avg stock. Is that incredibly fast? Hell no, however when they came out in 1990 they WERE FASTER THEN THE VETTES AND CAMAROS of the time, look it up. Thats not my point though, so how do u make it faster? I'm glad you asked,, just shut your mouth and listen. Being a turbo car you want NO BACKPRESSUE, if your in the $2000 challenge you can just remove everything after your downpipe. Now, using a 5 dollar boost controller, you can crank the boost up on the stock 14B turbo and EASILY run mid to high 12. No internals and NO fuel upgrades. Just open up both ends w/ exhaust and intake and crank up the boost. The stock turbo has gone in the mid 11's w/out nitrous but im just doing averages w/ a average tuner. http://www.dsmtimes.org/turbo.htm Now you wanna get faster, easy. Throw on a bigger turbo and some 720cc injectors w/ a SAFC. The engine is boost happy and runs so well because it WAS designed for boost. Meaning, Oil squirters, LOWer COMPRESSION, ECU which has a knock sensor and advances timing right up until the edge of knock. Obviously you will need to upgrade rods at some point if you want to Daily drive it espcially but not until the 10-11 second mark. Got another question for you? How many daily driven cars do you see w/ full interiors and STREET TIRES, that run 8.7 second 1/4 mile times w/out changing a thing. Well I know of one but since its only a 2.0 liter 4 cylinder DSM (talon/eclipse) it can't be fast right?? CHeck out the link. I see his car every year at the DSM shootout in Ohio. Great car, check out the old mag article and videos. http://shepracing.com/ There are faster eclipses/talons that are full out drag cars but I'm impressed more by the cars that actually drive to the track and don't even change the tires they are riding on. So you say "Well, If I put the 22 pounds of boost on my camaro im gonna be twice as fast cause I got twice as many cylinders" GOD, If murder were legal I'd kill all you stupid asses who talk shit but never touched a wrench. It's hows a engine is designed and its quirks, period. To run over 8-9 PSI on your SS you'll have to do some serious internals which will be very expensive and ruin any chances your car had of being a daily driver because of noise and reliability. Remeber, i already knocked off a mid 12 w/ $2000 invested INCLUDING the price of the car. The 4 cylinder 4g63 engine can easily handle 25 Pounds of boost WITH TOTALLY STOCK INTERNALS. And it still would never make you twice as fast even if you did get that much, just keep reading tool. So whats left, you still say domestics are FAR SUPERIOR cause there faster stock. NOPE. You know those evos and stis will kick your ass. How about the new evos and evo MRs that actually have the same 2.0 liter 4 cylinder 4G63 engine as the eclipse. EVO MR 0-60 4.3 sec 1/4 mile 12.9 sec .98 g's on the skidpad OUTHANDLES and OUTBRAKES ANYTHING STOCK!!! PERIOD Oh YAH starts at $31,000, check out R&T from march Heres a motor trend article on the first US EVO, not the more powerful EVO MR. Notice it still beats EVERY CAR IN THE SLALOM, Murcielago, Viper, cobra. corvette, 360 modena etc. http://www.motortrend.com/features/scenes/112_0306_spdtest/index.html The new Evo MR is 300 pounds lighter, better tires, active center differiantial, upgraded shocks, upgraded turbo w/ 30 more horses and ft/tq. It will kill the regular EVO in these same test and for only 3,000 grand more. A VIPER AND VETTE KILLER IN EVERY SENSE OF THE WORD FOR 31,000 grand!!! But i got 6 more cylinders dogg, so i cant lose!! Yah whatever.. This shows even HP and TQ are just another number in determining speed. The EVO MR is only rated at 281 horses and 295 ft/tq. Some douche on this site would think a 500 hp/ 500 ft/tq viper should be twice as fast but yet there within a .4 second in quarter mile time. That is because there are MANY FACTORS THAT DETERMINE SPEED. Weight, traction, power ACROSS THE RPM RANGE, are defintley as impotant as any Peak horsepower number which means almost nothing. On the street the EVO will most likely take a faster car for the simple reason it has that AWD system. That split second the viper spins is the split second the EVO will jump and beat even 11 second drag cars on the street. I got more but I probaly shouldn't waste my time since talking to a wall would be more productive.