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Discussion in 'Technical' started by M Division, Aug 30, 2006.
Turbocharged 3.8L gnx motor.
Given the right design and materials a push rod engine can use high revs, but the design will always be inferior to the four valve DOHC design when it comes to engine speed and the use of extreme valve acceleration due to the increased mass and reduced stiffness in the valve system.
As for the GM 3.8L engine I would except that the low output is the main reason for it being "bulletproof". GM aren't exactly known to use the better but more expensive solutions in engines, though there are exceptions.
Modern engines tend to be less "bulletproof" due to the chase for lower frictional losses, lower weight, smaller dimensions and longer service intervals.
If one takes good care about the engine, and if the engine is oversized for its output it can last very long. There is for example a guy in USA which has a Volvo in which he has driven 2,500,000 km in.
Many european and japanese manufacturers also have a long history of building very strong engines, many of which are based around a rigid cast iron block, an aluminium head (usually over head cam), a forged crankshaft, forged con rods and forged or a set of strong cast pistons. Compared to the american engines the are generally much smaller though.
Quote from SaabJohan:
"As for the GM 3.8L engine I would except that the low output is the main reason for it being 'bulletproof'."
Oh, I agree. If you build an all cast-iron engine and keep the output limited to ~60 hp/L naturally aspirated and ~75 hp/L supercharged, as long as you have a decent oiling and cooling system, no wonder it will last a long time. I was giving the guy a hard time because I was implying that the engine was useless when it isn't, and just because it's an antiquated design doesn't make it a "bad" engine either (sorta like my Ford FE engines). <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>
With a pushrod design you can have lower specific output but still maintain high hp/kg.
"Modern engines tend to be less "bulletproof" due to the chase for lower frictional losses, lower weight, smaller dimensions and longer service intervals."
Don't forget about consumer demand for high specific output. It's a powerful economic force. Sometimes it increases weight, external dimensions, and fuel consumption, all while decreasing "bulletproofness".
hmmm..... i believe its 7.3 liters and i also think it was built by some company with three letters. theres probably an A an M and a G in there somewhere. yeah thats it. the monster that calls the Zonda F home. Goodnight.
Seriously, you idiots think your fanboy car engines are the best there are, but do any of you actually know about engines? The Merc engine in the Zonda is just a generic 12 pot. It hasn't prooved to do anything especially well, its just big and makes a lot of power and noise.
I don't see no Zonda's setting horsepower records or endurance records or even doing anything that any other hypercar can't do.
The answer is 4AGE, second in line are some of the timeless american V8's and the LS1, then 2JZ.
Anything else and your just projecting your own misinformed stupid fanboy hard ons into the equation.
That's why Honda engines are so impressive,specially the S2000 engine.
hmmm... i didn't know that high horsepower means you built the best engine ever. the 2jz is a great motor indeed, but without an aftermarket exhaust, downpipe, and headers, it doesn't sound to special. believe me, ive seen and heard 1,000 hp 2js's but, a real motor require engineering, power, sound, and design. i do believe that AMG incorporated all of those into the 7.3 v12. and as far as my knowlegde goes, i haven't seen a single negative review on the zonda motor. i guess i must be a stupid fanboy with a hard on. forgive me folks, ill go finsih off now......
That I like the best?
The ridicuously awesome Porsche TT flat 12, and Auto Union supercharged V16.
Also, the S7 V8, and the AMG 7.3 liter V12 are pretty great, bu lack the sheer lunacy of the abovementioned.
That are good on a daily basis?
GM small block V8
BMW current Gen M5/6 V10
Those are not good on a daily basis.
I again renew the obvious, the Chevrolet LT-5. It didn't need 12 cylinders or 7+ liters to put out more power than that AMG motor when it came crunch time for power.
Look up Lane "Fastlane" Goldstein's Corvette ZR-1, nicknamed "The Hard Way" because it is a naturally aspirated LT-5 pumping out 900 HP with no nitrous, no turbos, no big blocks, no superchargers, nothing but pure technological genius. 368 cubic inches... 900 HP.. no turbos, no nitrous, no superchargers, let that sink in.
YOu've seen and heard 1000's of 2jz's.
Seen and heard thousands of Zonda's too?
No, you haven't. Go sit in the corner dumbass.
BMW inline 6
Porsche flat 6
SBC - LSx
learn to read #$%#er. i said ive seen and heard a 1000hp 2JZ not 1000's of 2JZ. who's the dumbass now?
owned by a kid in orlando who works for a professional race team. T70 single turbo 987 rwhp. 9 sec on race fuel. hooters import meet. #%!@.
Such an expert, and yet you still regard a limited run merc 12 as the greatest engine ever because it "sounds cool"?
If anyone owned themselves it was you - nice self own there, you have proof in your hands that the 2j is a remarkable engine because yours is making about 4 times the output of what it was when it came out of the factory, and if you've set it up properly it'll be useable on a daily basis, and won't need a rebuild every week. You think your merc engine could make 2000hp and be a durable as what you have? I doubt it.
For someone who's such an expert, you really don't seem to understand much at all. "Greatest Engine ever" has nothing to do with what it sounds like, or even how much power it has. Its about the achievements its made. Why do you think I picked the 4AGE? "because it "sounds cool"? ever heard a 4AGE? I've heard thousands and thousands and they sound like shit. But because the engine is so damn good its been put in cars for the last 20 years. I've seen it make 3 times its power without induction. Its driven an SW20 accross the salt flats to set speed records. They've set drag records, they're regarded as one of the most reliable engines EVER made. They STILL raced them in the GT350 and JGTC until a couple of years ago.
No one gives a uck what it sounds like.
But thats cool, you're the expert, the obscure 12 that won't be running in 10 years time is obviously the greatest engine ever right? because it sounds cooler.
And your wrong anyway, Fiat's 12 sound much better.
I would love to read more details about that one...
edit: Nevermind...in case you didn't know the AMG engine is not a race engine.F1 engines had nearly 1000hp with only 3L of displacement.So,I don't think the LT-5 is something special.
you must have missed the engineering and design part i included. i dont at all think that sound alone makes an engine the best ever. jumping to conclusions just to attempt to prove someone wrong...? and i understand that the supra motor pics i posted make 3-4 times the factory bhp, but you need to add all of those aftermarket parts to get it that high. and i know that if done correctly, high hp supras can be driven on a daily basis with complete reliability if properly taken care of.
but what you failed to notice is that i think the 7.3 amg v12 motor is great because it incorporates so many aspects that make an engine great, not just sound alone. i realize the amount of skill, knowledge, and craftsmanship it takes to design a motor of such ability and give it a mid-engined designed, and have near perfect weight distribution. i dont see many other automotive companies doing such, with the exception of the super exotics.
so in the future, lets all try to read everything that is on the screen in front of us, and process all of the information before thinking about the next stupid thing we have to say. sounds good?
i love your sig
Since when do F1 engines and cars use factory air conditioning or factory power steering? Goldstein's ZR-1 was not an F1 race car, not an IMSA tube frame, it was a production Corvette ZR-1 with a modified engine and a 4-speed Lenco manual transmission that took it to high 8s in the quarter mile, making it the world's fastest ZR-1. Goldstein probably could of saved a few more horses if he removed the power steering and air conditioning and alternator, but you know why they remained on there? Because it was a STREET car.
There are precious few modifications done to that LT-5, custom intake manifold, rods, pistons, stroker crank, ported heads, and new cams. From 405 HP to 900 HP.
Street legal? BS...
Why wouldn't it be street legal?
And in any case, even if it weren't street legal, why would he have kept the A/C and power steering?
As long as it has fully functional safety equipment (lights, seat belts, etc.), maybe emissions equipment depending on the state, DOT-legal tires, and has an up-to-date registration, it's street legal.
you forgot PASSION