De-tuned F1?

Discussion in 'Technical' started by Pando, Jul 8, 2009.

  1. I didn't read this post, because I know you're full of shit. Also, way to go on #$%#ing up the page layout, n00b.
  2. i'm going to start coming to this site more often again

    threads like this make this place great
  3. Forgive me then, I didn't mean to annoy you guys like you annoy me.
  4. I think we should encourage this guy to go ahead and try driving a fully powered F1 car.

    It'll restore the natural order.
  5. oi cocksucker, you can't do it ok? that's it! numerous members said you can't, they have experience pwning n00bs all day and night long amirite? ok so shuddup and have a seat
  6. #31 Phanofmuzik, Jul 10, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    driving something and driving something over .5/10ths of its limit are very different things. Im sure most anyone with a bit of experience driving a manual car can putt around a track in an F1 car.

    You have no idea where the real limits of an automobile are.

    Thats the difference between you and me. You think youre fast and good because you extract minimum potential out of a fast machine. I KNOW im fast because I extract maximum potential out of increasingly fast machines. In reality you have no idea what real speed really is because you never can actually push where that boundary is. You think speed is mashing on the gas and going fast. I think speed is entering a corner you take at 40 at 85.

    Have fun being the slow driver in the fast car. Ill have fun driving a slower car faster than you drive your fast one. This is the classic issue with the guy that starts out on a superbike. By starting out with a hammer you never learn any of the finesse skills.

    In reality, youre the huge pussy. By driving fast vehicles far, far under their potential (which youll be doing) is actually way, way safer than driving a car at its actual limit. When you get all the way out to that 10th/10th, shit starts getting wild and unstable. You wouldnt know though, considering youve never been there.

    Unlike you, I can actually substantiate my claims. Ive had several members here on track with me as passengers. RabbitL1, my911turbo, innotech can all vouch for me. Since theyve ridden ive gotten significantly faster and tweaked my setup a bit.

    And I bet they dont even let newbies like you try out the nice cars they have. You probably have to start on something much slower to prevent an idiot like yourself from splattering an F1 car into a wall.

    and you still havent substantiated any of your claims with EXPERIENCE or EVIDENCE, outside of what you THINK or ASSUME might be right.
  7. good point. I retract all statements.
  8. he may be a stupid thinking that those cars could be boring but how can you say that you can outrun his gsxr with your STI? it really depends on the circuit, in long straight you cant really do anything against it
  9. #35 Pando, Jul 10, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    You really don't understand anything do you? Furthermore, you don't read what I write, and make a lot of faulty assumptions.

    You're also a major ass, I didn't say anything bad about you before you did, yet you managed to make your first post a perfect example of an ad hominem directed towards me.

    If you think I'm an idiot, then why did you even bother to reply to the thread, multiple times? Why don't you just stay the hell away from the thread to begin with if you have nothing to do but start a flame war and utter ridiculous ad hominems? (Yes, we all know you have to 'defend your turf', but it is still rather ridiculous). Oh, you want to "teach me"? Is that it? But if I'm an idiot then how can you teach me? Any way you put it you are following some absurd logic and methodology in the construction of your statements, which is the clear line seen through all of your posts.

    Now, calm yourself down and read the following:

    1) Have I ever stated that I would be able to push an F1 car -- ANY F1 car -- to the LIMIT? No, I haven't. Yet you assume so. I said I could HANDLE the F1 car (and I didn't specify what exactly handle entails, either -- so you're on ice when you use this as a vector for your attack), I didn't say how fast I would go in the corners, did I?

    2) How do you know at all how I drive regular street legal cars and how I drive my GSX-R? How do you know that I don't push it (GSX-R) to the limit in corners as well? I've had my GSX-R for a couple of years now, and I do just that.
    I'm not sure what you mean by the "limit" but based on your slow learning curve I guess you mean breaking the limit and spinning your car? When I talk about the limit I don't mean that, I mean the fine line between static friction and sliding friction as per the traction circle -- which was actually really intuitive for me way before I learned the term.

    3) You assume I know nothing about racing, yet you have no idea how much material or how many books on the subject I might have studied.

    4) You imply that all forms of simulators are sheer nonsense, well, I guess for an idiot it is hard to comprehend that by simulating the laws of physics you can actually create a pretty authentic simulation of the real thing; even though it lacks certain (important) sensory input -- any way you put it, the best simulators as of 2009 are not the same thing as "The Need for Speed 1" 15 years ago, even though I'm sure that (that too) is hard for you to comprehend. :)

    5) You think you can extrapolate your knowledge from Formula SAE to real Formula One. I'm sorry, but the Formula SAE cars are not the same as the Formula One cars.

    6) You think your stock STi can outrun a GSX-R 1000 on any track, in any conditions. Well, no further comments on this one ...

    7) You think GT4 (Gran Turismo 4 [I actually had to look it up]) is a racing simulator. Here is a list of racing simulators:

    I'm afraid I'm not as shallow or as stupid as you think, even though you like to imagine I am, I'm just rude back to you when you're rude to me. ;-)

    Read it and weep, you just missed it: "Even if I can't push the car to its limits in the corners I can still enjoy the flat out insane acceleration?". Yes, I actually wrote this, just must have overlooked it.

    I know I can't handle an F1 car at the limit, I know I can't handle a GP2 at the limit, I know I can't handle a Formula 3 at the limit, I know I can't even extract anywhere near the same performance from a slow go-kart as professionals can. That obvious, why would you think I would believe I could? How stupid would someone be to believe that? Probably more stupid than being able to throw together a proper sentence, yes?

    Then why do I want to have ~850 HP at 18 000 RPM instead of ~550 HP at 12 000 RPM? Come on, don't tell me you wouldn't find it more fun on the straight with 850 instead of 550 HP? There is also the sheer fun of high RPM, I don't know about you, but I rather enjoy the sound of a screaming 18 000 RPM engine, it would be fun to control one, even if just for a short period of time.
    I can't make use of 850 HP in the hairpin corners, oh, jesus, I can't? I couldn't figure that out for myself! Oh, you can't make use of 550 HP either in the same corner? I didn't know that! Jesus H.!

    I'm actually laughing while I'm writing this, it is quite amusing, I don't really care if you believe me or not in any of this, it is still rather amusing to have this discussion. :)

    So there you have it, lets see now if you can resist the temptation of commenting on this or not, if you do comment, no matter what you say, it will prove a huge point.

    If you do decide to comment, will you please raise the intelligence bar by a couple of notches? I don't think it will be much fun to reiterate this too many times on the same level.
  10. hahaha good god

    Who said SCN was dead ?
  11. #37 Phanofmuzik, Jul 10, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    I think its fun watching you avoid the tough answers.

    1) Fair enough, but whats the point of driving something so fast so slowly?
    2) You dont drive the bike to its limit on the street. You are alive, which is a testament to that. Streets arent smooth or consistent enough to do such. The line between static and sliding friction isnt like you would think when youre dealing with tires, mr physics 1. Because tires torque and twist your contact patch is doing lots of complex stuff, and having a bit of slip angle in the tires is often a good thing for grip, and necessary for driving fast. Managing slip angle, scrubbing speed vs braking, managing weight transfer, being smooth, having non-smooth inputs end up as smooth outputs, managing distance vs speed, etc all are the thing that push where that limit really is. Skills you simply cant gain on the street, no matter how hard you ride or drive.
    3) Your points so far indicate to me that you have very little. And all the book knowledge in the world is irrelevant without the real world experience. ive read several racing and design methodology books and it all sounds nice and easy until you actually do it. The experience is 100 times more important than the on paper stuff.
    4) They are, because you dont have the important sensory inputs, you dont have to manage the same balance of things, and quite honestly, racing games are all meant to be lenient. The only sim ive used so far that was even close to simulating the real thing to the point that valuable info could be learned was a 30,000 dollar custom made device made for racing teams to learn new tracks.
    5) Racing experience is racing experience. You can extrapolate much of the information you learn from it into experience. gaining the intuition for pre-emptively correcting things is a common skill. As is knowing where to keep your eyes, how to properly manage adrenaline, how to combat mental fade, and even things knowing things like proper seating position and how to hold a steering wheel properly. F1 cars are pretty much the exact same in terms of inputs and outputs, the only real difference is that you have to do everything faster and youre in a downforce-grip based car.
    6) I did not say that. I said ME in MY STI could outrun YOU in YOUR 1000cc bike. Im fully aware I couldnt keep up with an experienced racer on one (note the difference between RIDER and RACER).
    7) You fail at interpreting what I say.

    The thrill of having the extra 300 hp wears off very quickly, while the thrill of pushing a car to both you and the cars limit does not.

    And its highly amusing to me to watch you continually defend your points with no literally no backing.
  12. Pull to the left or right and knock him off his bike??
  13. I think you should ask yourself what you're really trying to prove here.

    This is probably a once in a lifetime thing for me, it is only TEN LAPS, nothing more. With only ten laps available I don't have time to get very familiar with the car, all I can do is try enjoy every aspect of the experience as much as possible -- why is it so hard for you to understand that on the straight, which I will only pass ten times, that I wouldn't mind having 300 extra horsepower and 6000 RPM more? Do you hate good engines?

    When I first had my GSX-R I was rather thrilled by the sheer power and acceleration, but now that isn't so interesting anymore. OF COURSE it is more interesting in the corners with an F1 car, the F1 car is a CORNERING-MACHINE, that is all it is built for; but how can you expect me to learn to handle an F1 car properly around an unfamiliar track in just TEN LAPS?

    You're completely wrong about simulators, I never said they are substitutes for the real thing, I'm saying they can be useful. They can teach you SOME ASPECTS of the MOST GENERAL things in racing. But since you thought I was talking about "GT4" or some other arcade game, then I wouldn't blame you, but for failing to read what I wrote, that I blame you for.

    How I defend my points with no backing? Avoid tough answers? What on earth are you talking about?

    If you by that mean informing you on what you misread, failed to read at all, and reminding you of what I've said, then ... well, sure, but I don't really see what is amusing about realizing your own mistakes.
  14. save your money and just take your bike to the track. Simple solution to all of that. You stop being a bad rider, you get more than 10 laps, and you actually are familiar with the machine.
  15. Jesus christ, can't you at least bother to read what I wrote before you insult?

    I never said it would be boring, I merely WOULD PREFER to have 300 HP more, wouldn't you?
  16. Cat fight!!!
  17. Ive seen the kinds of times new track riders and drivers put down out there. Motorcycle guys are especially slow the first times out because of the obvious cost of mistakes compared to a car and the extra twitchiness of those super fast bikes. Experience is the sole reason Ive passed things like an ACR, panoz racecar, ford GT, gallardo SL, and a 360 CS out on track. Im not some super stud driver (im quite good though) and never would pretend to be, but compared to a first timer its night and day.

    And I may not be able to keep up on a couple of the mega highspeed courses like VIR, but It would probably be close, or he would die/have an accident in the process (likely in the braking zone at the end of the main strait) trying to outpace me. There are maybe only 3-4 non-roval tracks in north america that a first time track motorcycle rider would even have a chance at outrunning an experienced auto racer in a modestly fast car on.
  18. don't know, never drove anything similar, i drove really fast cars but not this fast, still at first it could be ok having some less power
  19. Diction cannot beat logic Pando. There is nothing left to be said, as phano has already said it all.
  20. Only very experienced race car drivers will be able to take these cars to the limit. Anyone claiming anything else is only fooling him/herself.

    These cars have enough power and grip to set an alltime lap record in almost any scandinavian race track and Johan Rajamäki, the instructor, have indeed have set many records with these cars (since these tracks normally don't see any faster cars race there). From what I can recall his times have only been beaten when Shell let one of Ferraris test drivers do a few laps in a later Ferrari F1 car.

    The engines used are older detuned V8 engines, possebly Cosworth engines. Newer F1 engines are too expensive and are also very difficult to handle from a technical standpoint, which would make them to expensive to operate in this manner. Running the engines with full power would also reduce their lifetime and make costs go up.

    Since these engines only run to 12000 rpm they can probably be run with conventional mechanical valve springs.

    "I think I'll manage the F1 car at full race spec,"

    What a #$%#ing idiot.

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