Even Japan's Big 4 realize "no replacement...displacement"

Discussion in '2003 Acura RSX Type-S Performace Package' started by Aroon, Oct 9, 2002.

  1. Re:

    Yes, but skidpad AND slalom can tell you a lot about the vehicle's ability to react to the road under extreme driving conditions.

    Dodge Viper SRT-10: 1.1 g skidpad. Oh, and C&D says it handles like no Viper before it.

    As for the "Performance" package RSX-S, VTC (i-VTEC's supposed "power booster") is nothing more than Vacuum Advance; all engines have, slightly advancing timing at higher RPM's (this does help slightly with low-end torque).

    I'm sorry, but 142 lbft @ 7000 rom is NOT low end Torque, Formula 1 cars are massively supercharged 3.0 liters (this effectively increases displacement), and the fastest cars in the world have 10-liter engines. There really is "No replacement..."

    Well, you know how it goes.
     
  2. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    g forces do not mean a whole lot, the more power you make the more gs you make, the heavier your car is the more "grip" it has and the higher the gs you pull, and we all know the heavier your vehicle gets the crappier it handles. Handling and cornering are different characteristics about how a car turns and rides, slalom is important to a certain degree but does not give an accurate idea of how a car handles on a real track with real conditions.

    Displacement will generally always yield more power, the guy who said F1 cars are amazing and only use a 3litre engine has a point. But they would use bigger engines if they were allowed too. Of course there would be a feasable limit on engine size because of how much weight effects cornering and stability.

    VTEC actually improves lower end power as well, 142ft/lbs of torque from a 2 litre is actually quite good, you must realize the engine has more poop up high because this car has the same torque from about 2500 to 7300RPM and the higher you climb the more horsepower you make. VTEC means variable valve timing and electronic lift control. It changes the lift in the cams constantly to always produce maximum torque, and at VTEC engagement point in this car 5900RPM it switches onto the bigger more aggressive camshaft set. VTEC is very real, and produces quite good numbers for a car that was literally built to be environmentally friendly. This engine in particular is the best one from Honda yet. With little tuning this car can achieve figures much higher then the F20C (S-2000 engine). The K20's #$%#ing rock. The type R in japan has 220 horsepower, the only thing different about there engine as far as I know is a .5 higher compression ratio, and an intake manifold. They should start using this powerplant in an S2K. The F20C in the S2K is a very highly stressed engine as it is. Or they need to make a K22A engine, and put that in the S2K. Like I said displacement never really hurt anyone.
     
  3. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    Brown doggie F1 cars do not use any means of forced induction, they are not supercharged.
     
  4. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    In reference to your statement of: "this car has the same torque from about 2500 to 7300RPM and the higher you climb the more horsepower you make."

    how about NO.
     
  5. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    If you people didn't know already, the variable timing controls lift-> just to say <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>
     
  6. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    Ummm I have seen dozens of dynos on lots of stock RSX's it has a very flat torque curve it hase between 130-143ft/lbs of torque from 2600RPM and up.
     
  7. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    Yes the torque curve is flat, but you dont get all of the torque you paid for untill 6,000 rpm. (see graph) Its the pitfall to the vtec system. Stock or modified your vtec motor wont preform its best untill 6,000rpm.
     
  8. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    heres the graph
     
  9. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    ill give you a replacement for displacement... it is called boost. i drive a 93 RX-7tt with a 1.3L rotary motor that will smoke many v8s
     
  10. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    The quote in my signature was inspired by misinformed individuals such as yourself. “There’s no replacement for displacement” DOES NOT mean that displacement is the only way to increase horsepower, torque or any other measure of performance. Instead it is more of a physical property, because a larger engine pulls in more air/fuel mixture per cycle.

    Here’s an example:

    A Subaru WRX has a 2.0L boxer 4, fed 14psi of boost to make 227hp

    I have a GMC Typhoon which has a 4.3L V6 also fed 14psi of boost, however it makes 280hp, only by virtue of more displacement. (it has no other major performance mods)

    The Typhoon is ten years old and I’m sure lacks some more “modern” features of the WRX, so clearly it isn’t decided by technology or engineering.
     
  11. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    But with 16.5 psi, would your Typhoon make 300hp as some past STI versions of the Impreza have?

    Bear in mind that the WRX has 5 <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/amazed.gif"></A> cats on it.
     
  12. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    AGAIN its irrelevant to my point.

    However if you remove the governer on a Typhoon or Syclone its turbo will make its maximum amount of boost at 17psi which bumps it up to about 330hp. (so ive been told)
     
  13. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    :<A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A> sure, whatever.
     
  14. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    what exactly is that suposed to mean?
     
  15. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    You didn't really answer to what he said, He said that the Skyline with the N1 engine comes out with 450 HP and more torque then the Viper for 48 000$ which is cheaper then the Vette and Viper

    Dont even bother saying that the Skyline N1 isn't factory stock cause it is but only on a limiter production of 1000
     
  16. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    an 8000lb car could pull 1g at 30MPH, where as a 2500lb car could pul 1 g at 80MPH, see the diff, don't give that shit about the vette handling better, around Nurburg they tested 911 turbo, NSX-R, NSX, vette zo6, and Chrysler viper(450HP if i recall right) in euro. and the viper came in last, the zo6 was about 5 sec. a head of it, the normal NSX was 8 sec. over that, and the NSX-R was (trying to remember) around 12 or 13 sec. faster then the standart NSX, and the 911 turbo was the fastest, but i 4got what the times where, if i can find them again on a website i'll be back to post all the times. but this shows that even if the NSX only has 280HP (290HP for the NSX-R) it handles better then most cars.

    P.S. the NSX (280HP) runs a 1/4 almost the same time the 390HP cobra does. and the NSX handles much better.
     
  17. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    I agree that boost is a replacement for displacement. Take two EXACT (read: not different) engines of ANY size and add boost to one. The one with boost will always be more powerful, thus acting like an N/A engine of a bigger displacement. Take the biggest engine EVER produced (let's say the biggest engine humanly possible for arguement's sake), then take another one exactly like it and boost it. The boosted counterpart will no doubt be more powerful. Thus making the power of an engine that does not exist!

    Any engine, no matter what displacement, will never be as powerful as it's boosted counterpart, plain and simple.

    The limiting factor is how big a street car you want. We can't have 60 liter engines in street cars can we? I doubt it. But we CAN have smaller boosted engines that DO fit on the street, that might be able to make the power of a 60 liter N/A (60 liters as in displacement). (this is all for arguement's sake by the way, these numbers are just there as placeholders, do NOT take the numbers as fact) There's only so big an engine you can fit into any given street car.

    Yes my friends, the boosted one will always win. Although displacement and boost DO go hand in hand, again, the boosted one will always win regardless of the displacement that the two have (the same). Up the displacement WITH boost and you get a significant power difference. But take the boost away and you have an engine that won't be as great then when it had boost. I motion to change the old adage to "Boost, the replacement for displacement."

    I know what I said could have been a little confusing, so let me break it down a little more just in case.

    5 liter N/A vs 5 liter boosted = boosted one wins
    6 liter N/A vs 6 liter boosted = boosted one wins
    7 liter N/A vs 7 liter boosted = boosted one wins

    now....

    7 (seven) liter boosted vs 8 (eight) liter boosted = 8 liter BOOSTED wins.

    The keyword is boost. The displacement ONLY matters when comparing it to a boosted engine of a smaller size. Yes, without displacement boost is nothing, as was mentioned by a fellow member above. But without boost, displacement N/A can never be as powerful as a larger engine (a higher displacement engine, N/A). Boost makes up for displacement an engine physically does not have. Boost "replaces" displacement that isn't there.
     
  18. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    Its hard to believe how bad ive grown to hate this car. At first, I liked having the extra power and its "good" looks, but it got old fast. After driving a Type-S at the local dealer, I was greatly dissapointed. Because of Honda's lack of low end power and its obsession with VTEC, the revs had to be insanely high to really get the best out of this vehicle. I know it was much the same in the old Integra, but it jut felt right in that car. I think Honda needs to take a lesson from its compedators and tune the engine up a bit, hell use that partnership with GM and find out how to make a good even powerband. And one other thing, at well over $20,000 this car is hardly the value thatit used to be...
     
  19. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    If you understood the difference between DOHC and OHV, you would realize that your entire ideology is flawed. Cam engines are heavier than pushrod engines. So a 3.5 L DOHC probably weighs the same as a 5.7 OHV while the 5.7 has more HP. American sports cars have bigger displacements using OHV engines, while most foreign manufacturers achieve similar horsepower using DOHC engines with less displacement, but the actual physical dimensions are similar and the engine might weigh even more. OHV engines can be cast in aluminum, which is lightweight and inexpensive, but DOHC engines are cast in much heavier metals because aluminum would overheat due to the increased revolutions of DOHC in order to reach the same horsepower. I won't even waste my spit with the whole notion of the difference between HP, Torque, and the power band.

    In other words: LONG LIVE THE GOOD OLD AMERICAN OHV V8.
    and I'm not even American and I still love them!
     
  20. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    holy shit some of you guys are dumbass's vtec doesn't make the engine make less power it's almsot like having 2 dif sets of camshafts one to make more power down low and one for more up top. if u take one of your v8's and give it a higher performance camshaft is will always say that your idel and low end torque will suffer and thats bc it's tunning the engine for the top end power vtec allows for both top end and low end torque. thats one dumbass down. another thing the z06 doesn't pull 1g on the skidpad it pulls .97 dumbshit and around a track it kills the zo6 even tho the zo6 has much better acceleration and top speed why si taht oh eya it handels better why u ask it's because the car doesn't weigh as much and is a mid engined car which has much better weight balance. and pushrod engines still ahve camshafts dumbshit it's jsut that theres only one and it's right above the bend in the angel in the blcok and the valves are controlled threw rods that open and clsoe the valves overhead camshafts like dohc and sohc have the camshafts over top the the vlavles and reducing the amount of moving poarts which in turn reduces the rotating mass and if u know shit then this allows the engine ti turn more frelly thus more hp next time don't speak threw your ass think first
     
  21. Re: Even Japan's Big 4 realize

    oh yea and american cars are pushrod engines not over head cam engines so if your talking about that good ol v8 they your thingking of the wrong one. dohc does not cause the engine to weigh more my integra gsr has an all aluminium engine and it has double over head cams. don't speak threw your ass about stuff u don't know once againdohc will alsways be better then pushrod or sohc if u want proff then why do all race cars use double over head cam engine? formula 1 dragsters all of them the reason is it's better
     
  22. #47 ETB4U, Mar 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    So much for your NSX beating Corvette theory: http://www.supercars.net/nurburgring.html
    And, twin, you are an idiot. OHV, over head valve, is "pushrod." As for reliability, you cause more friction rotating at 8,000 RPM vs. 5,000 RPM. Take a wild guess what friction does.
     

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