Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

Discussion in '2000 Mugen SS2200 Concept' started by Spyder757, Aug 9, 2002.

  1. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

    Not efficient, huh?
    the Corvette 5.7l gets about 24 mpg
  2. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

    Your'e not wrong. But there's a flip side to that coin. If you take a small engine and a large engine, the larger one would make more power. Put a really big turbo on the small engine and it would make as much if not more power. These are just different ways to achieving the same goal. Yeah I know, a turbo can suffer from lag. But it's easier to tune.(IMO)

    So, Is there a replacement for displacement? Does it even matter?
    If you really means business, increase the displacement AND add a turbo!
  3. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

    By the way. Why are you guys allways arguing about hp?
    It's the easiest thing to fix on a car. I'd take an underpowered but well balanced car over an highpowered poorly balanced car any day.

    But what I really want is an highpowered AND wellbalanced car.

    And there's nothing wrong with high displacement engines.
  4. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

    Also there's how an engine behaves at different engine speeds. Let's take an example. A Ferrari 550 and a Viper GTS has pretty simular power. Pretty simular 0-60. But going from 45 to 70 in 6th gear, the 550 is almost twice as fast. The ferrari engine is more "elastic" and easy to drive. It also keeps singing until 8000rpm. The viper engine is pretty dead over 5000rpm.

    In other words, rev. is important, but not a replacement for displacement.
  5. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

    exactly, no replacement for displacement, which means screw the 2.2 crap and go for the 5.0 or higher v8... jeez
  6. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

    As some guy said there are different ways to get to the same goal.

    For example.

    You've got a 300kw Holden GTS which is worth about $90,000.

    You buy a $25,000 civic and from the money you save you can mod it past the point of the 300kw Holden GTS.

    Of course due to my inexperience with modding cars im probably wrong so instead of giving me shit just prove me wrong.

  7. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

    Why is the Ferrari more elastic? An engine is called elastic if it's got more torque. You can feel what torque is by driving a simple Volkswagen TDI for example. These engines are very torquey. press the accelerator when low in the rev range and feel your body pressed in the seat.

    Now when the engines of both the Viper and the 550 are linked to the SAME gearbox the Viper (which has significantly more torque) will be quicker in the in-gear acceleration.
    In the real world the Viper is much slower because of its very long gearing.

    What you are referring to in the above about elastic engines: the Viper has the most elastic one. See for yourself on the site. The max torque figure of the Viper comes much lower in the rev range than the 550s. Elastic means you can pull up from very low RPM.
  8. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

  9. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

    Jeez I'm so sick of that saying! I'm a big fan of imports and everything (I drive a CRX Si and I want a S2000), but V-TEC barely gives anything that cant easily be gained in some other way. Get a life, or at least know what youre talking about.
  10. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement cc more of displacement...crazy torque Two words for you...#1-Forced and #2-Induction. or maybe you could go for a wild cam or set of cams, high compression pistons, titanium valves, valve springs, and retainers, adjustable camgears, knife-edged crankshaft, high stress rods and bearings, a cold air intake, some kind of cool intake manifold, and oversized throttle body, and all the other cool crap that goes with naturally aspirated tuning...all without the use of boring over or stroking. There are replacements for displacement.
  11. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

    displacement creates torque low down in the rev range.. vtec only kicks in at 6000 or so rpm

    real replacements for displacements are lowering weight, a good turbo or supercharger, or using conservative cam duration and timing
  12. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

    Hmmm if only Honda would take the time to create a seriouslly GOOD engine, not modifying a 4-Cylinder with electronic stuff, then ill give them some more respect, kinda like how chrysler took the time to design the Hemi. A hemi is an engine that will continue to be a legend, where as Vtec is only a few electronic helper outers to the 4-cylinder engine, its just somewhat of a crutch, no permanant fix... which is why all japanese "sports" cars, must be modified to compare up to domestics and other sports cars etc.
  13. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

    Hmmmm, if only you would take the time to do some seriously TRUTHFUL research, and not make assumptions based on your lack of knowledge. Honda engines are designed from scratch to be better controlled by "electronic stuff", that's hardly a weakness.

    How many Domestics compare to the STi or EVO? very few, in fact the only cars that do are full on sports cars (most of which can only accelerate as quickly) while the STi and EVO are family sedans that perform so well without any modifications whatsoever.

    How many domestics can compare to the NA I-6 NSX around a track? a whole 2, amazing, 2 whole cars can run with the NSX, can't keep up in the turns, but are slightly faster in acceleration, and yet, both cars have engines more than 2x the size of the NSX.....your point is meek, engineering is superior to displacement.

    BTW - V-Tec has little whatsoever to do with fact the only thing electronics have to do with the performance of V-Tec engines, is how cleanly the engine burns, and how much fuel goes to the engine with what timing.

    V-Tec is the modern day equivalent of what the Hemi engine was "back in the day", as V-Tec engines put out more power per displacement than any other engine (the exact same thing the Hemi engine was touted for when it hit the scene). So if you're going to sit there and claim the Hemi engine to be an engineering miracle (which it really wasn't) then don't say the opposite of V-tec, as you're then contradicting yourself.

    The V-Tec design engages different cams at different rpm, for the most part, it's controlled mechanically.

    And Honda's engine designs are not so good because of how much power they produce for their displacement (hell, anybody can achieve the kind of power output they do), their engines are so good because they can make their engines put out so much power, burn so cleanly, and do so reliably (which is the very reason the K20-A was such an engineering feat).

    So don't be such a silly twat.
  14. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

    yea dude
    i agree with u
    if they just rev the engine to a higher rpm level
    i think that should do the job
    wat i am saying is that torque and rpm are just equal
    example: if less torque + high rpm = 300hp (Formula 1)
    then high torque + low rpm = 300hp also (Muscle car)
    mayb less torque doesnt make the car go fast in acceleration
    but in a race, u dont brake to stop, rite?
  15. Re:

    What the hell were they thinking this thing totally sucks it is so ugly Mugen or not!!!
  16. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

    think about what your sayin

    "if honda would take the time to create a seriously good engine, not modifying a 4-cylinder with electronic stuff" alright now honda doesnt make GOOD engines they make great engines and great CARS. you see honda has realized that its not a good car if it goes straight really fast, costs $40 to fill the tank, and rolls over when it takes an 80 degree turn at 70. now im not sayin hondas are bad at goin in a straight line fast cause there not. i wanna see a domestic 4-cylinder hit the nines wit good mileage i mean good mileage on a 9 second street car even i think thats dumb but they can do it.

    "vtec is only a few elctronic helper outers to the 4-cylinder engine"
    and it makes torque whats wrong with that, nothing how is it a critch not a permanent fix so what do you domestic guys do when your not getting enough torque in early 2nd gear to late 3rd. oh wait i know BORE IT OUT!! cause thats how a real man would do it

    "your engines not as big as your mouth"-Quote from 2 Fast 2 Furious not much of a car movie but a good movie all in all if you ask me.
  17. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

    I wish there was replacement for stupidity you ignoramus
  18. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

    I’ve never seen so many misconceptions about “no replacement for Displacement”. Although many of these errors in judgment have been corrected, I feel that I should try to clarify what has been said and give it meaning.

    The fact of the matter is THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT, period. There is no disputing it. A good definition is as follows:

    “if you put an equally sized turbo on a small motor and a large motor, the large one will make more power. if all other factors are equal, the larger motor will ALWAYS make more power. this is a fact.”

    Why are there misconceptions about this statement? No one will know for sure, however I hypothesize that the term “no replacement for displacement” was coined around the late 60’s muscle car era. Therefore, people associate the term with cars that were basically powered by raw displacement and no other fancy tuning. Even if someone does make this association they haven’t thought very hard about it. By their logic the only way to make more power is by boring or stroking an engine. Even in 60’s muscle cars this is fallacy, using larger carburetors, more aggressive cams and increasing the flow of heads were all common place. As the years pass we gain other methods of tuning Forced induction, No2, VTT (really an aggressive cam) and so forth.

    So what exactly does displacement do for you? Air-fuel mixture enters the cylinder during the intake cycle. The potency of this air-fuel mixture is determined by numerous factors which are often mistaken as replacements for displacement. These factors include: Intake volume from heads, cam lift and duration, compression (which is technically after the intake cycle) and any method of forced induction, turbocharging, supercharging or No2. *Do note that this is not a complete list. Ultimately the amount of power made by the air-fuel mixture is determined by the displacement (size) of the cylinder in which it is inducted. This is because a larger cylinder can draw in more air-fuel mixture per cycle.

    That is what “There’s no replacement for displacement” means. Here’s what is does not mean.
    - Displacement is the only way to make horsepower. Clearly this isn’t true. You don’t even have to touch a vehicles engine to make it faster.

    Also there has been much talk of formula 1 cars. As far as them not making a lot of torque that’s not entirely true. 3.0L F1 engines make around 300 lb/ft of torque. Do the math that 100 lb/ft per liter, notice were talking about torque/L not hp/L. That is very impressive, no current production car makes 100lb/ft per liter naturally aspirated and one probably won’t for quite some time. Don’t say torque isn’t important because F1 cars make more per volume n/a than any other motor on the planet. (Of course how all of this torque is applied is more important.)
  19. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

    "“if you put an equally sized turbo on a small motor and a large motor, the large one will make more power. if all other factors are equal, the larger motor will ALWAYS make more power. this is a fact.”

    I know this is a quote from someone else, but you believe it to be true, and it is, if you're an idiot and forget all the advantages a smaller displacement engine has. All factors being equal (i.e. same compression, same rpm range), yes, the bigger motor will produce more power, however, to truly make all factors equal, you're forgetting that a smaller displacement engine can run a higher compression, and (with good engineering) safely run at a high enough rpm to produce the same amount of power. So, again, there is a replacement for displacement, but it's more of an alternative, because ultimately, for overall power output, neither has a greater potential. Greater displacement is more advantageous because it's cheaper, and easier to do, that doesn't mean it's better.

    all the rest is mindless babble.

    LoL, the funniest thing about you, is that after all this time, you still think you actually know something about cars, yet everything you mention is the most basic of knowledge, or entirely wrong altogether.
  20. Re: Honda knows theres no replacement for displacement

    what he is trying to say is that if you do the EXACT SAME thing to two DIFFERENT sized engines, the larger engine will always make more power/torque. It's not comparing a NA v8 with a turbo i4. It's comparing a turbo 4 with a turbo 8 or a NA 4 with an NA 8 or a vtec 4 with a vtec 8.

    however i do think a car powered by 1.21 jigawatts is the replacement for displacement
  21. I know exactly what he is trying to say.

    You're missing my point entirely.

    to "do" the exact same thing to two different sized engines, then you have to take advantage of their characteristics. Large displacement engines take advantage of their large capacity for larger combustion. Low displacement engines take advantage of their capacity for producing a whole lot of smaller, more powerful per volume, combustions in a short period of time. Therefore to do the exact same thing to both, you have to maximize their benefits, in which case the 4 can conceivably produce just as much power as an 8, only at a much higher rpm (within reason of course), torque is of little consequence.

    LOL, yeah, but the doc only made ONE Delorean Time Machine, so I'm afraid you're SOL. Besides, time travel isn't the same as accelerating fast on main street.
  22. Spyder757 rocks.
  23. ummm the first or second gen DIPSHIT, IT HAD VTECH
  24. They should make engines with 0 displacment so they can rev really high.
  25. That because the rest of the car is different. You can buy a LS2 from GM for less than the cost of a civic, you could put it in an old beater like a 240Z and for less than 90K it would beat every civic in the world.

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