# I SPIT on your "Masterpiece"

Discussion in '2000 Honda S2000' started by beliveinfiction, Nov 11, 2002.

1. Re: I SPIT on your

Perhaps the Tires "stick" so well becuase there is only 153lb/ft of torque at most put to the wheels.

2. Re: I SPIT on your

True they stick very well with only that much torque, but the reality is torque does not mean a whole lot, infact it means nothing on its own. Here is why:

Torque is a force, for instance give me a footling torque wrench and I could make at least 600ft/lbs of torque. However horsepower is a measurement of work over time. For example, great I can make a lot of torque, but I can not do it very fast. 100ft/lbs of torque @ 1000RPM is 19 horsepower. 600 ft/lbs of torque @ 10RPM is 1.1horsepower. This is why I cannot move a car as fast as an engine. Regardless of how much torque I make it will not help much. The same idea applies in cars, engine speed delivers power better then brute force. If you have ever been in a really powerful muscle car before you know that it throws you back in your seat,not because of low end torque, but because of low end horsepower. Take two cars like a Mustang GT, you might launch at 3000RPM, going by a dyno chart the car makes around 260ft/lbs of torque that makes 148.5 horspower. Not a bad launching horsepower by anymeans. Now you take a car like an S-2000, to be fair I will say 5000RPM launch instead of the faster method at 7000RPM, 149/ft/lbs of torque off a dyno this makes 141.8 horsepower, very close on the launch there is it not. Not to meantion that the Honda drivetrain is more efficient therefore would end up being about just as good as the mustang, lets see what happens when you launch at 7000RPM, 150ft/lbs of torque, this equals 199.99 horsepower, hmmm quite a bit of power no?

Potenza S02's will give you a great launch all the way up to 350WHP, thats why this car actually has very good launches if you know what your doing, the clutch in the car is supposed to take that kind of abuse, dump at 7grand feather the clutch like a mofo and you are #\$%#ing gone. Problem with all the mags that test this car is that they always launch at like 4500RPM, why would you launch outside of your powerband in any car?

3. Re: I SPIT on your

I see some stereotypes developing and i want to try and set something straight for the record.

-Many fans of muscle cars seem to put much emphasis on torque, seeing that an old school V8 has much of it.

-Many Honda fans or people who care for high reving engines seem to take the focus off of torque and put it on Hp through high revs.

Low and plentiful torque is better in certain situations as higher revs are in others; however neither of these points of view are superior to the other.

To summarize what budgy said above Torque is the amount of twisting force and Hp is simply the rate at which the force is applied. For those of you that donÂt know the equation for hp is:

Torque X Rpm
------------ = Hp
5252

The 5252 in the denominator is a constant, so basically if you want to increase hp you have to increase the amount of torque or the engine speed, or both.

Looking at the equation in an extreme case:

0lb/ft of torque X any rpm = 0hp
Any amount of torque X 0rpm = 0hp

This is the extreme example but you can see that if one of these factors is low, the hp will suffer. Basically you need both, one is no more important than the other.

When people compare torque to hp itÂs like comparing apples and oranges because hp is not a tangible or physical occurrence like torque or engine speed.

Again in reference to budgy's post I have been a muscle car or that is I own a vehicle with loads of low end torque. With your reference to this you somewhat missed the mark. It does throw you back in your seat because of low end torque, because the low end torque creates the low end hp, or more than a high reving motor.

*do note that on average an engines peak hp is at the redline because that is the highest rate at which the torque is applied; the peak torque however is usually a distance from the redline.

However A Honda b series motor starts to pull hard from 6k because that is when the valves are opened fully this allows it to produce more torque, granted it isnÂt as much as a muscle car but its being applied at a higher rate.

Basically what this all boils down to is you can have a large amount of torque with low or average engine speeds or less torque or higher engine speeds. Again, of these two methods of making hp one is not vastly superior to the other.

4. Re: I SPIT on your

Anyone who says torque is important, because without torque you dont have any horsepower at all, or without significant revs you dont get significant horsepower, unless you have shitloads of torque that is. The reason I will live and die by horsepower instead of torque is that performance equals horsepower, if you have horsepower, you have either good revs, or lots of torque, heck maybe even both. But just because you have torque doesn't mean you have performance (horsepower). Other than that I do totally agree with you. Its good to see we can see eye to eye on these sort of things even though we have a difference of opinion.

5. Re: I SPIT on your

Oh sorry, my bad, the F-1 cars don't do 240mph, but the champ cars (CART) do. Sorry.

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CART cars are also allowed to use a turbocharger in there vehicles.

7. Re: I SPIT on your

indeed they are, a laughably weak one though, i could sneeze and cause a greater pressure differential than those crappy little turbines - its almost not even worth measuring.

in the good old days (up to '00) theyd do 245mph on the 2 mile ovals...still less than the speeds achieved in the late 80s at Le Mans - on public roads.

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What boost do they run?

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I dont think the boost is that insignificant. The engines run a very high compression ratio. I know that on a high compression engine you do not need to run a lot of boost to bump your horsepower by incredible amounts. 14.7psi with a 8.5:1 compression ratio is the same power as 8psi:with an 11:1 compression ratio. At least this is what ive heard, if someone here knows how the formula for effective compression ratios work, they could tell if I am wrong.

10. Re: I SPIT on your

in '00 they used 5.5psi to get about 900hp, then they changed the rules coz theyre pussies down to 2.5psi, yes thats right...TWO POINT FIVE psi, so i wasnt joking when i said i could sneeze harder.

budgy, u r assuming the function of boost and CR is a straight line, which is true for small differences, but false for large ones. The formula for small increases is absolute pressure x CR = constant. So the two situations u mentioned are correct - but further increases will not yield extra power, u cant use a CR of say 12:1 on a highly boosted engine unless u use something other than petrol.

high boost/low CR is better than low boost/high CR even though the combustion pressures are the same because u have more MASS of air if u have high boost which means u get more power.

11. Re: I SPIT on your

Yeah that makes sense. 2.5 psi is pretty much nothing on any car. And no you could not sneeze harder, I would like to see someone force that much air out of a hole that big. I have a pressure washer that runs on 250psi, but it does not make as much power as a turbo in a car. If it did, we would see people using that shit in cars, to pressurize the intake instead of a turbo. You might say 50psi is a shitload for a car, but my pressure washer makes more psi. And my pressure washer can barely clean dirt off a fence, how would you explain 50psi in say a stock engine like a geo metros, would just blow the thing to pieces?

12. Re: I SPIT on your

You could turbo charge your pressure washer and strip the paint off of your car.

13. Re: I SPIT on your

budgy, a turbo doesnt make any power at all, it merely increases the power of the engine. 50psi would blow a normal engine up because u have to multiply that by the CR of the engine - so uve got say 450psi in the engine, which will pre-ignite the fuel and so blow your engine up. Use 250psi and your fuel will ignite in the air intake, it wont even get near the chamber.

If your pressure washer ran a turbine at the nozzle, u could generate quite a lot of electricity from the flowing water, like a hydroelectric power station. It would produce a lot more power than a turbocharger on its own, minus the engine - because 250psi is more than 20psi.

14. Re: I SPIT on your

Well I know a turbo does not make power on its own, the exhaust gasses spin the turbine and is forced back into the combustion cycle via the intercooling system and into the intake. But still there has to be a way of a turbo producing that much psi without detonation.

15. Re: I SPIT on your

no, there isnt, there is a limit to the amount of boost u can run using normal gasoline. Increasing the pressure of a gas increases its temperature, petrol has a flash point where it will explode without a spark, this flash point will be reached quicker the more boost u use, so there is a limit to avoid detonation.

An intercooler will struggle to cool down high pressure air to a sensible temperature, whereas they can cool down low pressure air to about 120deg.

16. Re: I SPIT on your

Therefore change fuels.

17. Re: I SPIT on your

All i know is that champ cars have about 900hp.

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19. Re: I SPIT on your

they had about 900hp in '00, and something like 325lbft. Dunno about '03, probably not much more than F1 now (280lbft)

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Thats funny, what is the displacement on a CART cars engine. They must do doing wierd things in CART to only get 300ft/lbs of torque with forced induction no matter how little boost they run. The 2JZGTE can achieve 700ft/lbs of torque with tuning and it is only a 3 litre. But of course for that much power people are using a HUGE single turbo from HKS, and they probably run about 35psi.

21. Re: I SPIT on your

CARTs are 2.6 V8s

325lbft from 5.5psi is pretty damn good considering a Skyline has the same size engine and more boost yet only has 290lbft

22. Re: I SPIT on your

Yeah but the Skyline doesn't run a very high compression ratio(9.5:1), and it isnt tuned from the factory. There are so many things you can do with a skyline to make tons more torque without adding boost or displacement. I guarantee you can make more the a CART car, considering the engine actually makes 300ft/lbs of torque from the factory when unrestricted.

23. Re: I SPIT on your

You can't go wrong with more displacement.

24. Re: I SPIT on your

skylines actually run 8.5:1, and have TWICE the boost of a Champ Car. They arent restricted by the factory, they come stock with about 325hp/290lbft.

The compression issue is difficult to argue when you're using different fuels - besides, the figure of 325lbft for the CART was an educated guess on my part

Silverado, more displacement is always a good idea, but not when the rules say its gotta be a 2.6-litre V8

25. Re: I SPIT on your

Yea, somewhere around 300lb/ft of torque.