Lexus LFA Nürburgring Package 7:14 lap?

Discussion in 'Asian Forums' started by Tipo F130A, Sep 2, 2011.

  1. But none of those Z07-equipped Corvettes have been tested on the MPSC tires.

    I'm not talking about production. I'm talking about actual sales.

    So you're telling me all those people who buy Panameras and Cayennes actually give a shit about Porsche's racing history? It has nothing to do with the feeling that, when you get inside a Porsche, it doesn't feel like they've cut corners anywhere in quality and design? I'll bet it does.

    Uh, they may both have been built to run laps around a track, but what I'm getting at is where is the priority. Clearly one car is built with track laps in mind over all the other things that make a car (luxury, amenities, subjective feel, etc); we might even include durability in that if other MPSC-shod Corvette exhibit the same brake fade.
    If lap times don't increase sales, then what does?

    GT2 also costs 2x's as much and the RS is purposefully limited to 500 units. Turbo seats are handy, but I rarely see them ever being used, even by small kids. I don't think that's the reason. Clearly, if you can afford a Turbo, you can afford a ZR1 *and* a pretty nice sedan.

    CF vs aluminum...that's a lot of "ifs." The simple fact is, starting over from scratch on the body is a huge deal. It doesn't make any sense that they budgeted this back in 2000 or whatever when they started. This HAD to have involved considerable cost, and it no doubt delayed the final product. Point being, this is not a model that has had the luxury of constant refinement over 5 decades that the Corvette has had.

    You are right, two very different cars with very different goals. If one is impressive in its lap time, then so is the other.
     
  2. 2 seconds over like 14 miles?

    lol
    give me a break
     
  3. the words of someone who got OWNED by the JAPS by 2 sconds.

    this is revenge for the atom bombs motherfUcker!
     
  4. lose by 2 seconds VS 200k+ dead...

    who got owned?
     
  5. "But none of those Z07-equipped Corvettes have been tested on the MPSC tires."

    Agreed. Maybe we will find out with more reviews and from owners of the 2012 Corvettes with the MPSC tires.

    "I'm not talking about production. I'm talking about actual sales."

    Well Sales depends on how many were produced. Annually speaking, Corvettes sell around 12,000 annually with the ZR1 being 1400-1500 of that total, with most sales being here in the U.S. I'm not sure how many porsches and models are sold in the U.S annually.

    "so you're telling me all those people who buy Panameras and Cayennes actually give a shit about Porsche's racing history? It has nothing to do with the feeling that, when you get inside a Porsche, it doesn't feel like they've cut corners anywhere in quality and design? I'll bet it does."

    I agree on that too, I have sat in various Porsches before and the interior is high quality and very well built and is another part of why many people buy them. I forgot to had that in my previous post.


    "Uh, they may both have been built to run laps around a track, but what I'm getting at is where is the priority. Clearly one car is built with track laps in mind over all the other things that make a car (luxury, amenities, subjective feel, etc); we might even include durability in that if other MPSC-shod Corvette exhibit the same brake fade."

    yes they were both built to run laps around a track, and thats where I was comparing in the first place because both are sports cars and the point of sports cars is performance above all and its the only aspect where these two cars can be compared because one is more for the "masses" or in other words cheaper and built within a certain price range in mind and a deadline. The other is developed to be more than 3 times as expensive or in other words "more exclusive" and with no apparent deadline.

    GT2 also costs 2x's as much and the RS is purposefully limited to 500 units. Turbo seats are handy, but I rarely see them ever being used, even by small kids. I don't think that's the reason. Clearly, if you can afford a Turbo, you can afford a ZR1 *and* a pretty nice sedan.

    The GT2 may be more expensive, but its performance and other features such as RWD, 2 seats, manual transmission, make it a more direct competitor than the Turbo. Not everyone wants to buy 2 cars instead of expensive car. If that were the case, many highly expensive exotics would not be selling at all. here's an example: why buy an LFA or Aventador when I can buy a 458 and a nice sedan instead? People who say that generally use that as an excuse for disliking an expensive automobile and fail to see the true value of such car.

    "CF vs aluminum...that's a lot of "ifs." The simple fact is, starting over from scratch on the body is a huge deal. It doesn't make any sense that they budgeted this back in 2000 or whatever when they started. This HAD to have involved considerable cost, and it no doubt delayed the final product. Point being, this is not a model that has had the luxury of constant refinement over 5 decades that the Corvette has had."

    There are always budgets in any kind of project, which is something that cant be ignored. No company is going to give the "Go" on a project without seeing the proposed budget, because they dont want to lose too much money. No project will ever go into development without a budget proposal. The fact they switched materials and spend alot more money and more development, easily shows that whatever budget they were given was considerably high. It may not have the constant refinement of the corvettes has had but at the same time the corvette has always been designed and built to be affordable for the masses and to make profit, not to be ultra luxurious with limited volume and highly expensive materials.

    You are right, two very different cars with very different goals. If one is impressive in its lap time, then so is the other.

    Agreed. both are very impressive cars, theres a reason why I have the LFA engine sound as my ringtone lol
     
  6. he GT2 may be more expensive, but its performance and other features such as RWD, 2 seats, manual transmission, make it a more direct competitor than the Turbo. Not everyone wants to buy 2 cars instead of expensive car. If that were the case, many highly expensive exotics would not be selling at all. here's an example: why bus not a model that has had the luxury of constant refinement over 5 decades that the Corvette has had."

    There are always budgets in any kind of project, which is something that cant be ignored. No company is going to give the "Go" on a project without seeing the proposed budget, because they dont want to lose too much money. No project will ever go into development without a budget proposal. The fact they switched materials and spend alot more money and more development, easily shows that whatever budget they were given was considerably high. It may not have the constant refinement of the corvettes has had but at the same time the corvette has always been designed and built to be affordable for the masses and to make profit, not to be ultra luxurious with limited volume and highly expensive materials.

    You are right, two very different cars with very different goals. If one is impressive in its lap time, then so is the other.

    Agreed. both are very impressive cars, theres a reason why I have the LFA engine sound as my ringtone lol
    tte exhibit the same brake fade."

    yes they were both built to run laps around a track, and thats where I was comparing in the first place because both are sports cars and the point of sports cars is performanc
     
  7. yes they were both built to run laps around a track, and thats where I was comparing in the first place because both are sports cars and the point of sports cars is performance above all and its the only aspect where these two cars can be compared because one is more for the "masses" or in other words cheaper and built within a certain price range in mind and a deadline. The other is developed to be more than 3 times as expensive or in other words "more exclusive" and with no apparent deadline.

    GT2 also costs 2x's as much and the RS is purposefully limited to 500 units. Turbo seats are handy, but I rarely see them ever being used, even by small kids. I don't think that's the reason. Clearly, if you can afford a Turbo, you can afford a ZR1 *and* a pretty nice sedan.
     
  8. thebarron1989:
    On sales, Porsche sells 10k sports cars a year in the US. But why look at only the US? Look at the world market: 35k units.
    I'm leaving production out of this because GM used "push production" in some years. They even built over 30k units in one year, but many of those languished on dealer lots for ages. In 2011, you could still buy a 2008 or 2009 model year Corvette that was never titled. Meanwhile, Porsche has much faster turnover.
    GM built too many cars, for too little demand. Not the right combinations of colors, features, options, etc. But these Corvettes are just as fast as other Corvettes regardless, no? A red ZR1 with grey seats is no slower than a blue ZR1 with black seats. So even among Corvette buyers, there is consideration for things outside of just performance only. Now that you have acknowledged the innate tactile quality of a Porsche vs a Corvette, it's pretty apparent why Porsche can outsell Corvette at similar price points. And why GM has announced they are benchmarking Audi for interiors on the C7.

    GT2 is a more direct comparo? Maybe for fans who haven't been weaned from their performance mag datasheets. Tell me, seriously, who cross-shops a GT2 if they can only scrounge enough for a ZR1?

    Why buy an LFA vs 458 or Aventador?
    Maybe a person doesn't like the look of the Italians. Or the sound, compared to the LFA. Maybe a person wants true exclusivity, not a car built in quantities of 4000-10000 (based on predecessors) and the issues of depreciation that go with it. Maybe a person prefers a front engined layout, doesn't want to sit with offset pedals like in the Aventador. Or a car that's not so visually loud (has worked for Aston buyers). Or one that doesn't set itself on fire. Or the feeling that you'd better have kissed your dealer's ass or bought one of his old stock before having a chance at a new car at MSRP.
    Sure, you can say "I'd rather have [insert obvious Italian supercar choice] over the LFA." So what? That doesn't mean there isn't just as much to like in the LFA.

    As for development, the LFA hasn't always been in continuous development. It has stopped and started, on and off. It's had at least one major styling makeover that we know of. Just because Toyota started in 2000 or whatever, it doesn't mean it's had the same continuous development or emphasis on performance that the Corvette has. That much is obvious just looking at the interior and build quality of the thing. As is the fact they presented a convertible, but never built it. As is the fact that the most hardcore track version isn't on Cup or Corsa tires, but the *slower* of the two summer tires on the old GT-R. Same tire as OEM for the WRX STi in some markets, as well as the S2000 CR.
     
  9. the shItrolet crapvette.
     
  10. gt2 shits on any american ox cart or some chink #$%# lexus pos
     
  11. except on the N-Ring

    owned.
     
  12. look at these unreadable words from a gigantic knob who doesnt know anything
     
  13. "On sales, Porsche sells 10k sports cars a year in the US. But why look at only the US? Look at the world market: 35k units."

    The reason why I'm mentioning the U.S sales is because only a few hundred Corvettes are shipped out to the rest of the world every year, making it more fair to compare the U.S sales since the U.S is also one, if not the biggest market of Porsche.

    "I'm leaving production out of this because GM used "push production" in some years. They even built over 30k units in one year, but many of those languished on dealer lots for ages. In 2011, you could still buy a 2008 or 2009 model year Corvette that was never titled. Meanwhile, Porsche has much faster turnover"

    The numbers I posted are not previous year models sold each year nor production numbers, they models of the current year sold, so if the numbers you just posted regarding Porsches U.S sales, then the Corvette sells competitively if not more than Porsche.

    "GM built too many cars, for too little demand. Not the right combinations of colors, features, options, etc. But these Corvettes are just as fast as other Corvettes regardless, no? A red ZR1 with grey seats is no slower than a blue ZR1 with black seats. So even among Corvette buyers, there is consideration for things outside of just performance only."

    Is this a case that only Corvettes suffer from, or is this something that any model from any manufacturer goes through.



    Now that you have acknowledged the innate tactile quality of a Porsche vs a Corvette, it's pretty apparent why Porsche can outsell Corvette at similar price points. And why GM has announced they are benchmarking Audi for interiors on the C7."

    Umm yeah thats quite obvious on the quality and interior, everyone knows that.

    However as mentioned in my upper paragraph, the sales of the Corvette and the Porsches are nearly identical with corvette selling a little more despite the aging of the Corvette.

    "GT2 is a more direct comparo? Maybe for fans who haven't been weaned from their performance mag datasheets. Tell me, seriously, who cross-shops a GT2 if they can only scrounge enough for a ZR1?"

    First off I never mentioned the cars competing sales wise. Second, the post you responded to originally was a troll post. Third, the conversation was about performance comparison not sales competition. If the post i posted earlier dealt a track time comparison of a 90k Z06 with a 350k LFA, do you think i was trying to compare something else other than performance??? Or did you decide to make it a comparison of sales????

    So if you want to talk about sales comparison then your in a completely different discussion because my troll post was comparing lap times, not who makes more sales. So performance wise the GT2 is more of a ZR1 competitor. Period.



    "Maybe a person doesn't like the look of the Italians. Or the sound, compared to the LFA. Maybe a person wants true exclusivity, not a car built in quantities of 4000-10000 (based on predecessors) and the issues of depreciation that go with it. Maybe a person prefers a front engined layout, doesn't want to sit with offset pedals like in the Aventador. Or a car that's not so visually loud (has worked for Aston buyers). Or one that doesn't set itself on fire. Or the feeling that you'd better have kissed your dealer's ass or bought one of his old stock before having a chance at a new car at MSRP.
    Sure, you can say "I'd rather have [insert obvious Italian supercar choice] over the LFA." So what? That doesn't mean there isn't just as much to like in the LFA."

    Hold up, so now your saying "oh so what if that person doesnt want this or that.."???? when the previous post you had used the same implication about the Turbo??? "Clearly, if you can afford a Turbo, you can afford a ZR1 *and* a pretty nice sedan"

    That makes your statement invalid because your statement can be flipped the other way around making it invalid.
    how??? ex. the person may not want a "lexus". The person may not want an exclusive car. The person may not like the sound of the motor. The person may not like the looks of the car..etc.

    It doesnt matter what cars are being compared because I only stated it as an example to your previous post about being able to buy two cars instead of buying one particular car.

    "As for development, the LFA hasn't always been in continuous development. It has stopped and started, on and off. It's had at least one major styling makeover that we know of. Just because Toyota started in 2000 or whatever, it doesn't mean it's had the same continuous development or emphasis on performance that the Corvette has. That much is obvious just looking at the interior and build quality of the thing. As is the fact they presented a convertible, but never built it. As is the fact that the most hardcore track version isn't on Cup or Corsa tires, but the *slower* of the two summer tires on the old GT-R. Same tire as OEM for the WRX STi in some markets, as well as the S2000 CR"

    Yes it has, I actually been reading about the LFA ever since rumors first started circulating, however what i was getting at with the development was that the LFA was given "special privilages" toward its development with a long time of development and a large undisclosed budget.




     
  14. Oh god not this again.
     
  15. #65 Guibo, Sep 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    thebarron:
    So you're saying the only chance in hell we can compare Porsche sportscar sales numbers vs Corvette sales numbers is on the Corvette's own home turf where it enjoys advantages due to no import duties and home-market patriotism. So that begs the question: why doesn't the rest of the world want to buy the Corvette? Could it be the relative lack of quality?

    The numbers I cited are ALL model years sold within that single year. This bolsters Corvette sales numbers because in those years, many more sales from previous model years (unsold in their original model year) are included, while the turnover on Porsche models is much higher. The number of sales for Corvette is only slightly better, considering the average transaction prices of Porsches is much, much higher. Of course it remains more popular with older folks...for now. The US population is getting older. But even GM knows the handwriting is on the wall if they don't appeal to a wider, younger audience (thus the benchmarking of Audi).

    From my knowledge, it wasn't only GM that suffered from the oversupply caused by "push production." I would not be surprised if Chrysler and Ford did the same. Notice the crap position these companies have been over the past few years: into or near bankruptcy.
    Read more here:
    http://www.bnet.com/blog/auto-business/can-us-auto-industry-make-the-switch-from-push-to-pull/803
    Like I said, if performance is that significant, customers should be buying whatever Corvettes are on dealer lots, regardless of trim levels.

    There is no inconsistency with my statements about the LFA: I never said *everyone* must like the LFA. <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/wink.gif"></A> Again, we were talking about the significance of lap times on the general public. I have yet to hear you admit that it doesn't mean a whole helluva lot. Thus, the entire point of introducing sales. For what else is the point of lap bragging rights if not a tangible benefit in sales?? My point has been that for budget-minded cars like the Z07/ZR1/GT-R, performance is more relevant than it is for cars like Porsche and the LFA (and you can add just about every other poor value-for-money supercar to that list).
    You pointed out the significant difference in lap times. I'm discussing the signficance of that difference, and thus sales, see?

    And what exactly would be the point of comparing GT2 lap times to Corvette lap times?? As you admit, completely different cars in completely different markets.

    Sources for your LFA development rumors?
    Here are some sources indicating the LFA had been put on hold:
    "Early reports said that Lexus had permanently shelved the mega-power car, but repeated LF-A sightings at the Nurburgring seemed to say Lexus was still interested in it."
    http://www.autofiends.com/2008/12/lexus-registers-lf-a-name/
    "...during its long on-again, off-again development..."
    http://www.autos.ca/lexus/preview-2011-lexus-lfa
    "On-again, off-again development has lasted four years and the car has yet to even be green-lighted for showrooms. At this point, we’ve got to say: Lexus, build the car or get it off the ‘Ring.
    Do you think the Lexus LF-A will ever hit public roads?"
    http://wot.motortrend.com/spied-lexus-lfa-back-at-the-ring-build-it-or-get-it-off-the-track-4444.html#ixzz1Xohy0r1A
    "there are rumors that Toyota has killed plans for the car. Members of the testing and development crew that are testing the car in Germany recently revealed that the car is not destined for the showroom...it's only being used as a development platform."
    http://www.thetorquereport.com/2008/08/has_the_lexus_lfa_been_killed.html
    Watch the first 20s of Chris Harris's review:


    Unless you work for Toyota and have access to their financials, you don't know what the budget is. (I doubt it is as much as the nearly 60 years of Corvette development.)
    Unless you work for Toyota, or camp out at the 'Ring or Fuji Raceway for months on end, you really have no way of saying the car was in continuous development.
     
  16. #66 Guibo, Sep 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    thebarron:
    So you're saying the only chance in hell we can compare Porsche sportscar sales numbers vs Corvette sales numbers is on the Corvette's own home turf where it enjoys advantages due to no import duties and home-market patriotism. So that begs the question: why doesn't the rest of the world want to buy the Corvette? Could it be the relative lack of quality?

    The numbers I cited are ALL model years sold within that single year. This bolsters Corvette sales numbers because in those years, many more sales from previous model years (unsold in their original model year) are included, while the turnover on Porsche models is much higher. The number of sales for Corvette is only slightly better, considering the average transaction prices of Porsches is much, much higher. Of course it remains more popular with older folks...for now. The US population is getting older. But even GM knows the handwriting is on the wall if they don't appeal to a wider, younger audience (thus the benchmarking of Audi).

    From my knowledge, it wasn't only GM that suffered from the oversupply caused by "push production." I would not be surprised if Chrysler and Ford did the same. Notice the crap position these companies have been over the past few years: into or near bankruptcy.
    Read more here:
    http://www.bnet.com/blog/auto-business/can-us-auto-industry-make-the-switch-from-push-to-pull/803
    Like I said, if performance is that significant, customers should be buying whatever Corvettes are on dealer lots, regardless of trim levels.

    There is no inconsistency with my statements about the LFA: I never said *everyone* must like the LFA. Again, we were talking about the significance of lap times on the general public. I have yet to hear you admit that it doesn't mean a whole helluva lot. Thus, the entire point of introducing sales. For what else is the point of lap bragging rights if not a tangible benefit in sales?? My point has been that for budget-minded cars like the Z07/ZR1/GT-R, performance is more relevant than it is for cars like Porsche and the LFA (and you can add just about every other poor value-for-money supercar to that list).
    You pointed out the significant difference in lap times. I'm discussing the signficance of that difference, and thus sales, see?

    And what exactly would be the point of comparing GT2 lap times to Corvette lap times?? As you admit, completely different cars in completely different markets.

    Sources for your LFA development rumors?
    Here are some sources indicating the LFA had been put on hold:
    "Early reports said that Lexus had permanently shelved the mega-power car, but repeated LF-A sightings at the Nurburgring seemed to say Lexus was still interested in it."
    http://www.autofiends.com/2008/12/lexus-registers-lf-a-name/
    "...during its long on-again, off-again development..."
    http://www.autos.ca/lexus/preview-2011-lexus-lfa
    "On-again, off-again development has lasted four years and the car has yet to even be green-lighted for showrooms. At this point, we’ve got to say: Lexus, build the car or get it off the ‘Ring.
    Do you think the Lexus LF-A will ever hit public roads?"
    http://wot.motortrend.com/spied-lexus-lfa-back-at-the-ring-build-it-or-get-it-off-the-track-4444.html#ixzz1Xohy0r1A
    "there are rumors that Toyota has killed plans for the car. Members of the testing and development crew that are testing the car in Germany recently revealed that the car is not destined for the showroom...it's only being used as a development platform."
    http://www.thetorquereport.com/2008/08/has_the_lexus_lfa_been_killed.html
    Watch the first 20s of Chris Harris's review:


    Unless you work for Toyota and have access to their financials, you don't know what the budget is. (I doubt it is as much as the nearly 60 years of Corvette development.)
    Unless you work for Toyota, or camp out at the 'Ring or Fuji Raceway for months on end, you really have no way of saying the car was in continuous development.
     
  17. you guys should go on a date
     
  18. #68 Tree Fitty, Sep 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    RLQ what youre failing to understand is that this is a necessary discussion to further the development of articulation in regard to the thoughts expressed upon the lame american cars that exist.TRUE technology is not found with american cars currently and they have never had good interiors and their trannys bang. not only that but rubbing the shafts the wrong way can cause terrible damge that ok parts are cheap but still sux! ppl like barron like to say merican cars are capable but theyre not and they cannot comepete against superior forces from nippon. from zed to sixty its dead. top speed dead. fita nd finish dead. no way can u compare. i hope you agree with this RLQ
    porshe has a long history of racing and is able to completely decimate its opponents even tho its smaller than gm
    ha! how is that even possible? passion mostly duh but lexus is right up there also. i am glad lexus is kicking some butt
    maybe gm can catch up here are review for reference:The Corvette's overall performance is universally lauded, but reviews note a few drawbacks as well: The seats have a flimsy feel, and the Corvette's reliability record is poor. The base car's interior doesn't look particularly upscale, with an abundance of cheap-feeling plastic, some critics say. Chevrolet now offers a pricey "leather-wrapped" interior option that provides an acceptable upgrade.compare to this The engine is stunning, providing massive thrust from 4000 rpm and zinging upward to the 9000-rpm redline. Its note is an incredible wail that sounds like an F1 car’s but quieter. The V-10 is so flexible that the driver can deposit the car in sixth gear at relatively low speeds—say 50 mph—floor the throttle, and the car will rocket to 150 mph in a hurry. Use the full nine grand through the gears, though, and the soundtrack is unforgettable, as is the rate that the scenery and other cars close in.

    The shifts are smooth and eye-blink quick in manual mode but become a bit clunky in the automatic setting. (This is the case with most single-clutch automated manuals.) When the tach needle approaches redline, the gauge glows red and there are all sorts of overwrought bleeps and bings.

    For all that, the most impressive aspect of the car is its stability at speed. We saw just over 170 mph out on the Ring (and somewhat lesser speeds on the autobahn), and even then, the thing feels as planted as a sequoia (the great tree, not the lumbering SUV). Unlike the video-gamey Nissan GT-R, the LFA is much more tactile. The steering has great feel and weight, which is surprising since it’s a fully electric system. The brake pedal, too, is linear and rewarding, while the carbon-ceramic brakes are sensational. On German roads, which are as smooth as a croquet lawn, the LFA rides nicely—it’s firm but well damped. On the Ring, which is actually bumpier than normal German blacktop, we’d say it was stiff but not uncomfortable.
    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q4/2012_lexus_lfa-first_drive_review/a_grammy_worthy_soundtrack_page_2
    http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/corvette/
     
  19. These threads make my head hurt.
     
  20. you no who is reading all these walls of text?


    no one.
     
  21. I like how lexus invites LFA drivers to the ring and gives them a year pass, whereas Nissan would be like "Oh shit, you went over 60mph, warranty == void"
     
  22. lol @ essays
     
  23. #74 RLQ, Sep 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    I get it.
     
  24. I'd take the white 2000GT
     

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