Lexus LFA Nürburgring Package 7:14 lap?

Discussion in 'Asian Forums' started by Tipo F130A, Sep 2, 2011.

  1. How many effort behind this lap time? :D
     
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  3. yes it was a troll post and it was comparing lap times. it wasnt me who brought sales into this discussion, you did. Ive already mentioned why I brought sales in U.S market only so its pointless to repost what you didnt read. You still dont get the picture Guibo, and you will never understand that we are comparing current models and how much was invested on such cars development. The more money is spent on a developing project, the more expensive the project is going to cost and thus making the final product more expensive. I'm not making any accurate budget numbers but its simple logic to see car A had a less budget than Car B.

    Certain somebody once mentioned its harder to produce affordable mass produced cars than high end cars because you are trying to make a car affordable thus reduces the amount money that can be invested on such car.
     
  4. oh i was just trolling guys lol
     
  5. I brought sales into this thread, but *you* tried to follow up on it.

    "Somebody once mentioned..."? Your development price explanation makes no sense, if you leave out VOLUME. What were the two factors that Audi's CEO Wintekorn was debating when deciding whether to produce the Quattro Coupe concept? It was price and volume. He knows that for whatever the development cost is (in the case of the Audi, adapting the mechanicals to an existing S5 platform meant he could undercut the typical 1B euros required to develop a new car from scratch by over 50%), it can be recouped via higher production volume (and thus lower cost) or higher prices (and thus lower production). The two are inextricably linked. You're trying to extract volume from the equation and that makes no sense.
    Major reasons why a Corvette can cost much less is because
    1) it's built in much greater quantity, and
    2) if it were priced like the LFA, GM would never meet their intended production quota (see 1 above)

    You're treating the C6 "project" as if it was a stand-alone, built-from-ground-up model like the LFA. But it's not. Without knowing the actual numbers, you can't really know how much was put into each car for the purpose of fast lap times, which is what your earlier post was about. The LFA *may* have had a shitload more money put into it, but that's because of issues that have little to do with making it fast (training of personnel for hand-made manufacture, a plant dedicated to LFA production only, acquisition/building of CF looms, tooling required for the bespoke interior components, acoustic tuning of the engine, etc).
    You are quite confident a $1.2M Reventon took much more to develop than the Aventador? You are quite sure the Ferrari Aperta, at 400k euros, required twice the R&D of the 200k McLaren MP4-12C?
     
  6. man take your clowning to general chat this is a serious discussion about srious stuff ok
     
  7. Yes I didnt "try" I did. A simple response to your post.

    "Somebody once mentioned..."? yes Bill Murray said that about 5 years ago. once I find the article in my room i will happily show you <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/wink.gif"></A>

    "1) it's built in much greater quantity" So why doesnt kia or honda use carbon fiber for the entire interior and panels of their mass produced cars, or use the same interior material as Lexus?

    "2) if it were priced like the LFA, GM would never meet their intended production quota." Of course unless they wanted smaller volume car like the LFA but then again the current "C6" doesnt have that kind of spent on the car to justify its price."


    Of course its not a stand alone project, thats why i'm saying it had less budget than the LFA. YES the LFA "May" have had more money put into it and that's what ive been saying.

    "You are quite confident a $1.2M Reventon took much more to develop than the Aventador? You are quite sure the Ferrari Aperta, at 400k euros, required twice the R&D of the 200k McLaren MP4-12C?"

    or are they trying to make huge profit???????

     
  8. You "tried" in the sense that you failed (Porsche's success having to do with motorsport heritage and not so much the fact that they're damn nice cars to be in).

    1) What do kia or Honda have to do with this? I think you might want to look at BMW's "i" city cars: CF monocoque and composite body panels, mass produced (25k+ per year) and relatively low money (
     
  9. ...and then there was a less-than sign supercars.net doesn't tolerate in posts.
    that's how we fight html here
    amateurs <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/sad.gif"></A>
     
  10. Thanks MooSquad.

    ...(less than $40k). For their purposes, Honda/Kia don't see the cost-benefit in favor of CF...at THIS time.

    2). What do you mean "of course"? There is no "unless" anything. Fact of the matter is, Corvette is currently set up for volume production with supply chain support at ~12k units per year. Fact is, there is no way they could hit that sales volume at $375k+ per copy.

    Now that you accept it's not a stand alone project, then why would you treat it as if it were? There is no way you can deny that the current Corvette as we know it is the aggregate result of decades of constant development, billions of R&D in initial startup, plant & equipment, personnel training, technical know-how, and literally billions in safety and certifications process alone.
    Perhaps what you really wanted to say is GM had nearly 60 years of R&D, billions in revenue from Corvette sales alone, plus Cup Sport tires, 6+ liters (or supercharged) and they've managed a 7:19-7:22. Whereas Lexus had 5-10 years of on-road development during which time they've managed a 7:14 with only a 4.8L engine on more conventional tires in their first officially released effort.

    So there you go! It's not all about development costs!! Differences in MSRP can be reflective of profit goals. Which is exactly my point: You cannot look at MSRPs as an accurate measure of R&D, and certainly not between projects with such massively different goals as the LFA and Corvette.
    You have been trying to extract VOLUME out from this discussion all along, when you simply can't. Look at McLaren. They are now able to produce a car that costs ~1/3rd of what their SLR used to cost. And that car had a modified existing MB engine and transmission, while the MP4-12C has a completely new engine, a more advanced dual-clutch transmission, arguably the most advanced suspension system on any supercar today, a claimed 1M miles of development spread among 40 prototype mules, plus a new factory to produce it. How else can you explain this, if not VOLUME?
    Same with the Aventador: the R&D to produce the Aventador is a whole shitload more than what it cost Lambo to take the Murcielago from that level to a Reventon. So why does the Reventon cost that much? Because of VOLUME.
     
  11. "For their purposes, Honda/Kia don't see the cost-benefit in favor of CF...at THIS time"

    Would you like to explain why??

    "2). What do you mean "of course"? There is no "unless" anything. Fact of the matter is, Corvette is currently set up for volume production with supply chain support at ~12k units per year. Fact is, there is no way they could hit that sales volume at $375k+ per copy"

    As I said in my last post of course it wouldnt hit that sales volume at that price, because "A" sales in that price range are very limited, "B" The car "AS IS" would not be able to justify the price tag.

    Before a project is given the green light for example the current C7 in development, do you think they first have to propose a budget on how much money they can spend on the car. Or do you think they are just going to spend and spend and spend more money in its development and expect to make profit in volume?


    "Perhaps what you really wanted to say is GM had nearly 60 years of R&D, billions in revenue from Corvette sales alone, plus Cup Sport tires, 6+ liters (or supercharged) and they've managed a 7:19-7:22. Whereas Lexus had 5-10 years of on-road development during which time they've managed a 7:14 with only a 4.8L engine on more conventional tires in their first officially released effort."

    Did you know the Z06 not the Zr1 beat the LFA by over 2 seconds at laguna seca by the same driver and same conditions on the same day???? KAPOW KO

    "Which is exactly my point: You cannot look at MSRPs as an accurate measure of R&D, and certainly not between projects with such massively different goals as the LFA and Corvette."

    LFA sells for for 350k each and yet its still a loss to the company, geesh how much does it cost to build one? Why doesnt Lexus just charge 50k and mass produce the LFA with 12k units annually to make profit?????? Is it because they dont want to or is it because they cant do it?

     
  12. " geesh how much does it cost to build one?"

    they loss because of the project cost, not the car itself, lexus started from 0, and realized something 100% new, vette improved something that was already done, this doesnt make it a bad car, just a different kind of project, the same can be said about porsche.
    it's easier to improve than improvise
    *and cheaper
     
  13. Did I mention the 340hp V8?
    yeah, stfu.
     
  14. This! Can't be so hard to understand...


    thebarron:
    Honda/Kia..."Would you like to explain why??"
    Err, maybe because they'd like to continue amortizing their initial investment based around steel?? BMW is also a premium marque. They know they have a customer base that will pay a lot extra for little tangible benefit (see: MINI), and are gambling that early adopters will pay extra for the benefits of CF whereas your typical Honda/Kia family scrounging for the best deal is more value-conscious and won't buy into a $40k small car. BMW have partnered with a CF producer for that kind of capacity for such a niche vehicle. 25k+/yr is a lot for CF, but a drop in the bucket in the hundreds of thousands (if not million) that a Civic sells in.
    Same deal for Ferrari keeping with aluminum and reserving CF only for its ultra-exotic hypercars: they have already invested the tooling for aluminum manufacture with their partner ALCOA and at this point it's cheaper to stick with aluminum.


    "Before a project is given the green light for example the current C7 in development, do you think they first have to propose a budget on how much money they can spend on the car. Or do you think they are just going to spend and spend and spend more money in its development and expect to make profit in volume?"

    Of course there is a budget. Who said there is no set budget?? Where is your proof the LFA had an unlimited budget?? As I said, there is plenty of proof via development stops and threats of cancellation that the budget was limited.
    Why would GM need to spend and spend and spend when so much of the groundwork has already been laid by SIX GENERATIONS of Corvette?


    "Did you know the Z06 not the Zr1 beat the LFA by over 2 seconds at laguna seca by the same driver and same conditions on the same day???? KAPOW KO"
    ZR1 wasn't same day. Its lap time is 1:35.8 vs the Lexus's 1:36.39. that's not over 2 seconds. That's only 0.59s. Did I mention the massive power, torque, tire width advantage, and the fact that the ZR1 has no comparable interior?
    Z06...on CUP tires. Motor Trend said every car that wasn't on Cup/Corsas would have been faster. That was also Pobst's 3rd time driving a Corvette, and only his first in the LFA. Perhaps you might want to compare what the standard Z06 did on its first Motor Trend test? 1:40.9. KAPOW KO indeed.


    "LFA sells for for 350k each and yet its still a loss to the company, geesh how much does it cost to build one? Why doesnt Lexus just charge 50k and mass produce the LFA with 12k units annually to make profit?????? Is it because they dont want to or is it because they cant do it?"

    Both. The LFA project manager has said it was always going to be exclusive. And it was tied in with their F1 program which died. So, no need (and no budget) to keep building it on an F1 glory that never came.

    The simple fact is, you've failed at establishing a direct link between MSRP's and R&D cost between two very different projects.
     
  15. LFA is the best car Toyota ever made! No questions!
     
  16. Awesome photos.
     
  17. i miss ron simmons
     
  18. Isnt that the point? You dont think that may be the reason why the base corvette does not benefit from extensive use of carbon fiber, due to it will become substantially more expensive and thus making it farther out of reach from its own typical clients?


    "Of course there is a budget. Who said there is no set budget?? Where is your proof the LFA had an unlimited budget?? As I said, there is plenty of proof via development stops and threats of cancellation that the budget was limited.
    Why would GM need to spend and spend and spend when so much of the groundwork has already been laid by SIX GENERATIONS of Corvette?"

    Where is your proof that I said Unlimited Budget???????????? You dont think a company would like to start from scratch on a model and do something completely different from its past iterations?

    "ZR1 wasn't same day. Its lap time is 1:35.8 vs the Lexus's 1:36.39. that's not over 2 seconds. That's only 0.59s. Did I mention the massive power, torque, tire width advantage, and the fact that the ZR1 has no comparable interior?"

    Reread my post it says "Did you know the Z06 not the Zr1 beat the LFA" I wasnt including the ZR1 because it wasnt done at the same time and conditions and it was the 2009 model which didnt have the upgraded suspension and tires which would easily shaved another 1.5 seconds off from its time.

    "Motor Trend said every car that wasn't on Cup/Corsas would have been faster. That was also Pobst's 3rd time driving a Corvette, and only his first in the LFA. Perhaps you might want to compare what the standard Z06 did on its first Motor Trend test?"

    Its not the Corvettes fault that it comes stock with such tires so it doesnt really matter because then i can say " well the Z06 would be faster if it had a transmission such as the LFA or 458" but this is reality. He didnt even liked how the car drove around the track and it placed behind the Corvette in the same Drivers car comparison. So apparently a race car driver who highly skilled didnt like how the LFA performed. Oh yeah and its transmission began to overheat within 2 laps.


    The fact you want to compare the standard Z06 which wasnt even driven the same day and conditions just shows your trying to hide the fact the LFA was 2 seconds slower than the Z06 of today. Do you think its fair to compare the 2018 Corvette to the 2012 LFA?? INDEED KO GUIBO OUT


    Both. The LFA project manager has said it was always going to be exclusive. And it was tied in with their F1 program which died. So, no need (and no budget) to keep building it on an F1 glory that never came.

    Your right, he also mentioned the Engine is many times more expensive than any other engine produced by Lexus.
     
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  20. thebarron:
    I never said volume is the only reason, but a main reason. As evidenced by how much cheaper the MP4-12C and Aventador can be relative to other supercars made from CF (SLR, CGT, etc). By your logic, we would have to look at the MSRPs of the 458 and MP4-12C and conclude there is no major price difference in developing CF. Look at the old Murcielago: its steel tubed frame with composite bodies isn't considerably more expensive to develop than the alloy frame and composite bodies of the Corvette. Yet it is priced multiple times more expensive than the Corvette, even more than the alloy space-framed F430/458 and R8.

    So changing out tires on an LFA is like changing the manual transmission out on the Z06 for a semi-auto? The simple fact is, the Z06 had better, grippier, fatter tires. They're even grippier than the tires on the LFA's track version, which should tell you something about Lexus's intent for outright objective performance. As should its transmission, which lacks a gear to even the old BMWs. And this was Pobst's 3rd time driving a Corvette. He had driven the Z07 pack just a few months back. This was his first time in the LFA.
    2018 Corvette? You're telling me the difference between a 2012 Z06 and a 2007 Z06 is the same as a a 2012 vs a 2018?
    So what you're telling me is that he set that lap time for the LFA with an overheating transmission? How did he know it was overheating? Did it go into limp mode? This is a pretty bizarre conclusion considering the LFA has been track tested multiple times before, with no complaints about transmission temps, even on the Nurburgring which is a far greater test of transmission durability and cooling systems than Laguna Seca.

    If that's what the LFA chief engineer said (about the LFA's engine costs), then I'd like to see it. Post it up. Was he talking about development costs, or the cost of each one as a replacement unit?
    You still have not confirmed the link between development costs and MSRPs. You might not have said "unlimited budget" but has it not been your intent through this entire thread to show that Lexus spent far more on the LFA? This is information you have not supported with any evidence whatsoever. Nor can you separate out what part of that budget and development time was spent on things that have nothing really to do with outright performance (the feel of the engine, the sound of the engine, the interior quality, safety, the tooling necessary just to build the thing, etc.). It's a hollow argument.
     
  21. From the Motor Trend article:
    "In the Corvette's defense, the Porsche GT3 RS also came packing basically the same sticky Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. However, they're different spec, and the autobahnstuermer's tires had tread all the way around. Not the 'Vette's meats. A quarter of the enormously wide 345s had no tread at all. The refrain then became, 'Sure, the 'Vette's fast. But put those tires on the LFA, and let's see what's what.'"
     
  22. I much rather have a LFA over any modern Corvette.
     
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