Nurburgring Lap Times

Discussion in 'Car Comparisons' started by ajzahn, Oct 28, 2004.

  1. Thanks a lot
    Next?
     
  2. mafalda:
    If I'd wanted a stupid picture of yourself, I would have asked. Why not answer a simple question:
    "Do you consider changing tire pressures to be 'manipulating' like Ferrari did for the Scuderia in Evo's test at Bedford?"



     
  3. add
    7.27 gt3 rs MY11 4.0l 500ps (claimed)
     
  4. latest addition to the list:


    7:27* -- 165.98 km/h - Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0, 500 PS/1360 kg *mfr.

    GT3 RS edition with four-litre displacement
    Limited edition racing car: 911 GT3 RS 4.0

    Stuttgart. With the 911 GT3 RS 4.0, one of Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG, Stuttgart’s most popular, coveted and successful racing pedigree production cars is entering the home straight. Limited to 600 vehicles, the 911 GT3 RS 4.0 brings together in a road car all the attributes that have made the Porsche 911 GT3 a serial winner on the race track. The new model purveys thoroughbred motorsport technology to its innermost core. The flat engine's crankshaft has been lifted unchanged from the 911 GT3 RSR racing car’s six cylinder engine and the forged pistons’ connecting rods are fashioned from titanium. The four-litre displacement sports engine, the biggest 911 model line engine ever, is also the most powerful naturally aspirated engine with 125 hp/litre (92 kW). It achieves its maximum power of 368 kW (500 hp) at 8,250 revs per minute. The engine delivers its maximum torque of 460 Newton metres at 5,750 rpm.

    The 911 GT3 RS 4.0 offers truly impressive performance. The most eloquent figure: It makes it round the Nürburgring-Nordschleife in 7:27 minutes. The 911 GT3 4.0, available exclusively with a six-speed sports transmission, sprints to 100 km/h (62 mph) from a standing start in 3.9 seconds, its gearing designed for the racing circuit taking it to the 200 km/h (124 mph) mark in under 12 seconds.

    The 911 GT3 RS 4.0’s outstanding driving dynamics are the fruit of meticulously coordinated details. In addition to using the suspension components typically encountered in motor racing, weight reduction is also of supreme importance. Equipped as standard with light weight components such as bucket seats, bonnet and front wings made of carbon fibre, plastic rear windows and weight-optimised carpets, the two-seater’s ready-for-road weight is a mere 1,360 kilograms with a full tank of fuel. At 2.72 kg/hp, the 911 GT3 RS 4.0’s power-to-weight ratio thereby dips below the magical threshold of 3 kilograms per hp.

    The limited edition 911 is painted white as standard and emphasises its proximity to motor racing by its dynamic appearance. Trademark characteristics are the wide track, the low vehicle position, the large rear wing with adapted side plates, the typical central twin tailpipe and the aerodynamically optimised body. The lateral front air deflection vanes, so-called flics, making their first appearance on a production Porsche, testify to the aerodynamic precision engineering. They create increased downforce on the front axle and together with the steeply inclined rear wing bring the vehicle into aerodynamic equilibrium. As a result, at top speed, aerodynamic forces exert an additional 190 kg pushing the 911 GT3 RS 4.0 onto the road.

    The market launch of the new Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 begins in Germany in July 2011. The basic list price is 178,596 euro including 19 per cent value added tax and country-specific equipment.
     
  5. tyre pressure is not "race tyres"
    Harris talk about race tyres, and you was agree.
     
  6. #2182 Guibo, May 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Here's the link:
    http://jalopnik.com/#!5760248/how-ferrari-spins

    Where does he say "race tyres?"

    So you accept that tire pressures is not cheating. Fine. Why do you suppose Ferrari lowered the tire pressures on that Scuderia for Evo?
    Can you give me some reasons as to why Ferrari would swap the 458's tires in the Autocar test? To be clear, I'm not saying these are race tires or slicks; if they were, Autocar probably would have spotted it. I'm asking you: What are some reasons for changing tires?
     
  7. #2183 lokGroova, May 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
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  8. #2184 mafalda, May 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    I don't remeber where I read this argument, I'll post the link if I'll find it. I certainly have no reason to add more controversy <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/wink.gif"></A>
    "What are some reasons for changing tires?"

    I've already answered with the contribute of Lorenzo facchinetti (Auto chief driver) when he wrote about it on http://forum.auto.it/
    "ferrari ***and lamborghini*** sometimes want to change a tyre-set, if too damaged, and we agree with them"

    even so, it's funny talking about ferrari-media-manipulation when then official GT-R official video starts in this way <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/wink.gif"></A>
    Ferrari manipulates, Nissan use a random car, with random tires and a random tire pressure... :D
     
  9. #2185 Guibo, May 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Who said Nissan use a random car with random tires and random tire pressures? Are you dumb enough to think that anyone believes Nissan spent thousands of laps using a random car with random tire pressures?
    The difference between Ferrari and Nissan (and just about all other manufacturers) is that only Ferrari takes this approach and applies it to many other *INDEPENDENT TESTS* where it is implicitly understood that others won't do the same, and thus the level playing field is not acheived. If you don't understand this, then STFU about Ferrari being "victims." Your incessant whining on about Ferrari (and only Ferrari) marks you out as a fanboy of the lowest order.

    Now, onto tires. No, you never answered my question. Lorenzo facchinetti's comments only address worn/damaged tires. Not tire pressures. I am asking you: Do you know WHY lower tire pressures can improve lap times?
    And how do you know that the tires that Ferrari changed to were not in their prime (possibly having been heat-cycled)? Do you know for a fact that the GT-R's tires were not in their prime when setting the record lap attempts?
     
  10. And how about 997 GT3 RS 4.0?

    7:27 - Porsche 997 GT3 RS 4.0, 500 PS/1360 kg(*mfr)

    bhp/ton
    473 - Maserati MC12
    521 - Pagani Zonda F Clubsport
    484 - Ferrari Enzo
    367 - GT3 RS 4.0 ???
    408 - Corvette ZR1
    415 - Porsche Carrera GT
    576 - Koenigsegg CCX

    And still, the GT3 RS 4.0 doesn't fit in there at all.

    How is Porsche able to defy physics with a naturally aspirated, rear-engined car on only a 2355 mm wheelbase? Is it because it's not made by (in your words) "crapanese engineers?" Racist much?


    Also,
    "7:47 --- 159.84 km/h - Porsche 911 Turbo, 500 PS/1573 kg (sport auto 03/11)"

    That is 8s slower than Porsche's claim (7:39, "Excellence Magazine" Dec 2009 interview with W. Rohrl about the 997TT w/PDK, Sport Chrono, and RE050 tires). Is Porsche cheating with its Turbos? This is the 3rd time that HvS cannot get within 5s of Porsche's claim on the Turbo. With the 997.1 Turbo he was 16 seconds slower on the official supertest, 14 seconds slower on a re-test.
     
  11. "This is the 3rd time that HvS cannot get within 5s of Porsche's claim on the Turbo. "
    maxi rotfl!!!!

    GT-R MY08 +21s
    GT-R MY09 +11.5s
    GT-R MY11 +10 and +12s (and don't forget: the claimed 7.24 was not an extreme lap <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/amazed.gif"></A> <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/amazed.gif"></A> )

    GT-R beats TURBOs 4-3 <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/wink.gif"></A>


    and do not forget that Bert (Ring 20.8 Km + passenger) was able to do 7.41:2 with TurboS and 7.43:6 with GT-R 485ps MY10 (same day, ame conditions), proving two things:
    1. the turbos can do better than HVS is able to do
    2. On the contrary, Bert confirmed, roughly, the time recorded by HVS, casting a shadow on the possibilities for improvements....

    in details, Bert (20.8) Vs HvS (20.6)
    458: clamorous improvement
    TurboS Gallardo: impressive improvement
    LF-A: good improvement
    SLS and GT-R: more or less the same laptime...
     
  12. So you're saying the Turbo is cheating too? If Nissan is 4, why is Porsche @ 3 not cheating? Porsche says 7:18 for the GT2 RS, yet HvS is slower by 6 seconds. That makes it 4 for Porsche too.

    +21s??? Since when?

    mafalda, you were on Nissan's case even after 1st time. Why were you not on Porsche's case the 1st time?

    Still waiting for your answer on tires and pressures...
     
  13. Sascha Bert is a 24Hr and VLN Nurburgring ace. AutoBild spent several days at the track. How do you know they got the right conditions? If Bert can improve on some cars, then that means he can improve on others. It doesn't mean he has to improve on ALL OF THEM EQUALLY. All we need to show is that improvement can be made. That is already demonstrated. You are also forgetting: passenger, weight + caution. He's not going to go 10/10ths with a passenger, for obvious reasons.

    And we already have same-day proof of HvS vs Suzuki: 12s. Don't you think if Nissan want to cheat and hype up the GT-R, they would give HvS a 600hp version? That would make it easy to match Suzuki's time, and thus "proof of equals." Why test for thousands of laps if, in one single flying timed lap, HvS can set exactly the same time?
     
  14. opps 7.50 (sport Auto 12/07) was partially wet. sorry, I forgot. I fix it
    the match is GT-R vs TurboS, sorry <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/wink.gif"></A>

    I'm not saying that porsche lies ... I'm telling about you: as usual, you use two weights and two measures
    shows that other manufacturers do not use ad hoc pressures for testing.
    Show me the tricks of the ferrari cut several seconds per lap.
    explain why the tests of customer ferrari are not a failure, contrary, the 430S wins against a customer CGT....
    tell me why if the 458 (according with germancarforum - 997 TS vs GT-R) does 0-200 9.8s is a manipulation, if a TurboS does teh same 9.8s is just for "good form and weather " (I can not find your anathemas about it <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/wink.gif"></A> )
     
  15. hahahaha rotfl again!
    in your fantasy world, the GT-R is the most unlucky supercar ever: the weather is everytime bad, and drivers are not able to drive it...

    your masterpiece was when Auto's tested the SpecV @ Balocco: although it was written very clearly, on the magazine and on forum too) how there were ideal conditions for a test, you have pathetically tried to doubt about the test conditions
     
  16. No, not two weights and two measures. Read CAREFULLY: Ferrari, unlike other manufacturers, provide massive support for INDEPENDENT tests, where other mfrs are not present to provide the same support. Ie, the field is not level.
    The tricks to cut time (not several seconds) per lap in those test? Self-provided fuels, ECU remapping, changing not just tire pressures, but WHOLE WHEEL SIZES on the front to fix understeer. I ask you: Who else does that in independent testing?

    Turbo S has AWD for better launch from 0. We also see Oakley Design 458 (+53 hp, -63kg) is SLOWER than stock factory 458. You are familiar with the top speed tests in Brazil, yes? I'm not saying customer 458's are always slower, but that seems to be the case so far.

    You said earlier:
    "S. Bert did a great lap with 458, and (under the same conditions) it would be difficult to improve.
    The conditions had to be good, as Bert with the various supercars did better than HVS."
    1st of all, it would be easy to improve the time on the VERY SAME lap: remove the .2km like Sport Auto do, which is worth about 5-6 seconds. Now, you are looking at possibly a 7:26 time. Faster than CGT?? Just like Zonda F Club Sport and Enzo?? Surely, with 458's weight (+ passenger weight), it must be using 650+ hp to match!<A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/wink.gif"></A>

    2ndly, you are now changing your story: Before, it was only GT-R which could not improve its time. Now, it's also the SLS...
     
  17. It is not strange for cars to perform differently under seemingly identical conditions. This is not a fantasy. That's the nature of tests done on different days.

    Show me a single driver who can drive the GT-R just as Suzuki on the 'Ring (or any other track, for that matter). Video please.

    And speaking of Spec V, if Nissan want to cheat, why not announce fake time for that car? It's easy, right?
     
  18. mafalda, do you know how tire pressure changes a car's performance? Answer "yes" or "no."

    Do you know how changing a car's stability control setting changes its performance?
     
  19. +650ps? that 458 did 0-200 10.4s.. it seems just in a standard form :D
    458 4R 100-200: 6.52s
    997 TS autobild 100-200: 6.8s
    ferrari is lighter , more power and it has shorter gear ratio
    ferrai: maniluaption
    Porsche good form <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/wink.gif"></A>

    "Just like Zonda F Club Sport and Enzo??"
    I already worte the same things abouyt the claimed 7.26:7 for GTR MY09 <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/wink.gif"></A>
    1. I think it's easier match against a Zonda CS with a 458 instead of a GT-R 485ps...
    2. I want the copyright <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/wink.gif"></A>
     
  20. #2196 Guibo, May 6, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Exactly! You don't need 650+ hp to meet Zonda F and Enzo times on the 'Ring. Are you not understanding this yet??
    458 4R 100-200: 6.4s
    http://imageshack.us/f/31/62129211.jpg/

    Porsche offsets its gearing with more torque, yet is still slower. What's your point? And tell me again how 458 is faster than Enzo, despite less power and more weight? <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/wink.gif"></A>

    "Easier" is your basis for cheating? LOL. I thought it was all about hp/wt. We have already seen that a GT-R @ 485ps can be a match for cars with much greater power/wt ratio. Remember Autocar on Isle of Man using GT-R w/limiter? Speaking of which, if Nissan want to cheat, why include a limiter on a TEST car?
     
  21. bhp/tonne

    473 - Maserati MC12
    363 - 458 with passenger ???
    521 - Pagani Zonda F Clubsport
    484 - Ferrari Enzo
    408 - Corvette ZR1
    415 - Porsche Carrera GT
    576 - Koenigsegg CCX

    It is funny enough that people ignore the specifications of the 1st and last cars on this list, but to ignore the obvious potential of the weaker Ferrari is quite illuminating. It SHOULD be patently obvious to anyone with even half a brain that accusations of "cheating" on the basis of bhp/tonne are stupid. But hey, maybe if the outliers are European/Italian, we can make some excuses...

     
  22. #2198 ZSexDouxuro, May 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
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  23. #2199 F40 Le Mans, May 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    http://www.autopareri.com/forum/prove-e-recensioni-auto/42385-quattroruote-ferrari-458-italia-4.html#post27561659

    Non saranno magari 570 cavalli dichiarati, ma vi posso assicurare che più di 580 cavalli non hanno. I quasi 600cv sono stati raggiunti solo al banco. Nessuna vettura del reparto esperienze ha una motorizzazione con quei livelli di potenza.

    Probably aren't the 570 bhp claimed, but I can assure you that aren't much more than 580. Nearly 600 bhp were achieved just during the engine dyno development tests. No factory cars had engines with those levels of power.
     
  24. where is the GT-R? I cannot find it in your list... <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/wink.gif"></A>

    273 bp/ton, but the famous 7.26.7 is not a fake <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/wink.gif"></A>

    two meters two measures, as usual

    and about excuses: re-read your comments on this thread about the failures of the GT-R and LF-A... <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?displayFAQ=y"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="pitlane/emoticons/wink.gif"></A>
     

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