The engine made it so expensive.

Discussion in '1993 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe ZR1' started by hondalover, Jun 16, 2003.

  1. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

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    I looked it up on the net.
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    I assume you're talking about Corvette pricing. I have been to the main American car dealer for the northwest of England many times. They are called Bauer-Millet and are a short walk from the Deansgate train station in Manchester. The general rule of thumb for buying grey-market American cars in the UK and Europe is that you take the price tag in dollars and put a pound-sign in front of it.

    They've currently got a new Viper for £80,000. Even the used Corvettes several years old go for as much as £30,000. The idea that you could buy a new one for £35,000 is absurd.


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    These so called "band-aid" fixes are for real world driving. You have to remember people drive these cars on the street to.
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    No, these "band-aid" fixes are there to cover up shoddy engineering. This is why real sports cars don't need them. Take TVR for example, their cars make Detroit's best look like pansies and yet the Blackpool monsters simply don't need traction-control, ABS or computerized handling-enancements. Why? Because they were designed correctly at the factory. Incidentially, this is why a TVR 350C with a "mere" 350bhp recently beat things like a Noble M12, Porche 911 GT3, Lamborghini Murcielago and Pagani Zonda around a track - any of of which, by the way, would absolutely slaughter the Corvette Z06 or Dodge Viper.


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    Traction control comes in handy when your driving in the rain/snow
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    You meant to say "Traction control comes in handy when you're driving in the rain/snow AND CAN'T HANDLE A POWERFUL CAR".

    You think it doesn't rain or snow in England?

    Look, if you think you need traction-control or ABS, then you should stick to a Ford Escort or maybe a Mazda Miata if you want to feel "sporty".

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    Try dodging a pot hole in your little elise, then spin out and crash. If you had active handling it wouldnt have happened...
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    Have you ever driven an Elise? I have and I can tell you from personal experience that it takes more than a panic swerve to unsettle one. Plus, even if you did lose the rear end, the brilliant steering response (another thing that American companies don't seem to know a lot about) makes it easy to rein the thing in.

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    my neighbor has a 99 corvette, and it gets every bit of 19/28mpg under normal driving conditions.
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    Is your neighbor a senior-citizen or does he just drive like one? I know people with Corvettes too and if you "give them some welly" as the Brits would say, you won't see your mileage get out of the teens.

    On the other hand, you can drive an Elise like you were on a track and you'll still get almost 40mpg. I had one for a week, flogged its guts out, put around 375 miles on it and only had to put ten gallons of gas in it.


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    All the engines you listed are alot heavier, and less efficient than the LS6 BTW
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    No, they aren't. Let's take my favorite to beat the Detroit-zealots up with... TVR's now-legendary AJP8. It is a 4.5 liter V-8 that produces 420bhp on regular unleaded and 440bhp if you put the good stuff in the tank. The engine is more than 100lbs lighter than the LS6, smaller, gets better mileage and sounds meaner (flat-plane cranks will do that). To be fair, it is being phased out because with the 16-valve head, it is having problems meeting the stringent new European emissions requirements but the rumor is that they're working on a 32-valve head to get past this which will have the side benefit of allowing more power. Who knows, they may even try their hand at variable valve-timing and get more power still.

    Also, Porsche's turbocharged flat-sixes are more efficient that the LS6 because they are turbocharged.


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    And that same 99 next door to me has 110,000miles on it without anything gone wrong or replaced(daily driver). I can go on about reliabilty, it far excedes european engines, ive seen so many LS1s and LT1s with over 150,000miles on them and absolutly nothing wrong.
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    You're kidding, right? 150k is nothing for a European engine. A Mercedes V-8 will do 300k easy. Jaguar's 5.3 liter V-12 is good for 400k. I used to own a Delorean and its Renault engine is good for 250k if it is driven regularly and serviced properly. Even the tightly-strung 2.2 liter four-pot from the Lotus Esprit S4s (good for 305bhp stock, or 350bhp if you edit the fuelling map slightly) will hit six figures if it is cared for and driven regularly.

    You know, I just figured it out... I know why Corvette owners are always so quick to brag about fuel economy and reliability. The car appeals to people who don't know a lot about performance cars (or else they wouldn't buy a Corvette) and who don't make a lot of money compared to people who buy Porsches, BMWs, etc... A Corvette customer will have to dig deep into their pockets to afford even $40,000 for a car and don't have a lot left over for fuel or servicing.

    Ironically, this is probably better for the car in the long run. They drive it daily since many of them can't afford to run two cars and those who can typically have a beater and so they'll prefer to take the 'vette whenever they can. Driving a car daily is the best thing for them. That's why Ferrari and Lamborghini owners have such problems with their cars - something that sits in a garage 300 days out of the year isn't going to be very dependable.

     
  2. #27 DragStrip, May 17, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    Heres a link to an S2000 with magna flow exhaust http://www.magnaflow.com/04sound/sportsound/hondarev.mpg
    That thing sounds like absolute shit, it sounds more like a go cart than a car. The Elise on the other hand does sound nice. And the viper does sound like a super car, whether you like it or not, give me some time, ill look up some sound clips.

    No, the difference between us is im open minded, your a bias ignorant kid, who doesnt like to look up things.

    I could easily say that a sports car is only a sports car if it can reach 170mph, but like your light weight obsession, thats just dumb. A sports car is simply a 2 seat perfomance car with RWD and IRS. Like you know corvettes and vipers both have IRS, not solid rear axles.

    Makeing a car is not about makeing the best car, its about making a car that sells. Looks like not every company can make such a light weight and powerful engine as the LS6.

    As far as handling goes let me enlighten you
    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0211_vv/index.html
    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0306_spdvett/
    "top notch handling"
    http://www.motortrend.com/features/scenes/112_0306_spdtest/index2.html
    And thats just a few articles from motor trend, i could go to EVO, car and driver, and sports car international magazine, all praise the corvettes handling.
    If the covette can handle than why does the Z06 out handle every car in its class(yes including the 911 turbo), and give the 360modena a run for its money?
     
  3. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    Quoted by EVO "The one-off car prompted Holden to look into the feasibility of full production. Unfortunately the car would cost rather more than the £34,000 LHD already available here." The LHD car they are talking about is the corvette in there article "Corvette's All 'Right' For UK."

    These "band aid" fixes are for REAL WORLD DRIVING. Most people who buy TVRs and other very expensive sports cars take them to the track often, and dont drive them on the road to much, especially in the rain and snow. The corvette is designed to be a daily driver and run on the track. ABS isnt just for stoping perfomance, its for saftey to, just like on normal street cars, the brakes wont lock up if you have to use them hard, or in wet conditions. Corrective handling is once again for driving on the road. Like i said, if you swerve quickly to avoid something chances are you are goin to spin out, active handling prevents this. BTW Sportcar magizine took the GT3 against the Z06, with a porche race car driver the GT3 being over 2X the price of the Z06 could only manage to beat it by 4 seconds. BTW try and find some cars in its price range.

    If you drive you vette like you do any other car, it will get great gas milage, simply keep it under 3000RPMs. I know the Elise get great gas milage too, i love that car. But it cant touch the engine perfomance a corvette gives you.

    Cant argue with you about the TVR they are great, but still to expencive. The Porche flat 6 on the other hand is heavier, bigger and gets 15/22mpg. And BTW the GT3 get about the same. And almost all turboed cars are less efficient than NA.

    You havent figured anything out about the Corvette. It was made and always has been made to be the best bang for the buck. Its inexpencive and performs better than cars double its price tag. And the gas milage helps it sell even more, especially with gas prices like were having now. You really dont understand car companies, they put things on their cars to sell, not to make them a better car. Why spend the money to buy a 911turbo when you can buy a Z06 and get better perfomance, ride quality, mpg, and just as good handling if not better for double the price?
     
  4. #29 Jon Gwynne, May 18, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Re: The engine made it so expensive.

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    Heres a link to an S2000 with magna flow exhaust
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    Yeah, it does sound lame, the standard exhaust sounds better.

    Here's a link to some real exhaust notes.

    http://www.sleepy-fish.com/video_page.htm



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    And the viper does sound like a super car, whether you like it or not, give me some time, ill look up some sound clips.
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    I've heard the viper in person, I don't need clips. It sounds like a loud truck. You can deny it all you like but it won't change the fact. It has a truck engine that was tweaked by Lamborghini for lighter weight and more power. They couldn't do anything about the exhaust note because they couldn't redesign the head.


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    Makeing a car is not about makeing the best car, its about making a car that sells.
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    This is exactly the attitude that keeps Detroit sniffing European/Japanese exhaust fumes. They don't bother trying to make great cars - they settle for "good enough" (memo to Detroit: "good enough", isn't).

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    As far as handling goes let me enlighten you
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    You couldn't enlighten me with an arc-lamp. Your cites are simply comparisons to other American cars or previous, worse-handling incarnations of the Corvette.

    Compared to something like a Trans Am, the Corvette handles well. Compared to something like even a BMW sedan, it handles like crap.

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    why does the Z06 out handle every car in its class(yes including the 911 turbo), and give the 360modena a run for its money?
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    It doesn't.
     
  5. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

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    Quoted by EVO "The one-off car prompted Holden to look into the feasibility of full production. Unfortunately the car would cost rather more than the £34,000 LHD already available here." The LHD car they are talking about is the corvette in there article "Corvette's All 'Right' For UK."
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    I don't know what article you're talking about or when it was published but did you miss the part where I said I've been to the Manchester Corvette dealer and the cars are more expensive that you claim?

    It doesn't matter what a magazine says, the cars cost what the dealers charge for them.


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    These "band aid" fixes are for REAL WORLD DRIVING.
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    No they're not. They're for hairdressers and rednecks who can't handle a powerful car.


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    Most people who buy TVRs and other very expensive sports cars take them to the track often, and dont drive them on the road to much, especially in the rain and snow.
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    Actually, you're wrong about that. TVRs are roadcars that do well on the track. Most TVRs do the vast majority of their driving on the road and some of them never see a track.


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    ABS isnt just for stoping perfomance, its for saftey to
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    Actuallly, it isn't for either one. ABS is designed to help people whose brains lock up if their wheels do. It doesn't shorten stopping distances - in fact it lengthens them. What it allows drivers to do is stop thinking, stomp on the brake and become a passenger in the driver's seat.

    To be fair, on heavier cars with power brakes (like my Jaguar), ABS is a good thing because the car's weight and brake feel make lock-ups very common in all but ideal conditions.

    However, for sports cars, ABS is not only pointless but actually counter-productive.


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    Corrective handling is once again for driving on the road. Like i said, if you swerve quickly to avoid something chances are you are goin to spin out, active handling prevents this.
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    So does a decent chassis/suspension design. That's why the Lotus Elise is so brillliant. Lotus have no peers in the chassis-design department and while TVR isn't as clever as Lotus, they've been fine-tuning their current chassis for almost 15 years and at least five different car models. The result is stunningly good.

    However, Chevy and Chrysler just keep reinventing the wheel every couple of years and never manages to learn from their mistakes on the previous model.


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    BTW Sportcar magizine took the GT3 against the Z06, with a porche race car driver the GT3 being over 2X the price of the Z06 could only manage to beat it by 4 seconds. BTW try and find some cars in its price range.
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    And yet the TVR T350C beat the GT3 around a circuit (Rockingham, I think) by almost a full second and also manages to be half the price of the Porsche. The base sticker price on a T350 is about £32,000. If Bush hadn't screwed up the economy and flushed the dollar down the toilet, the exchange rate would be about $1.25 to the pound which would put the price at around $40,000. Granted, with options like air-con and a trick TVR paint-job, you might see the price nudging the high 40s, but that's still cheaper than the Z06.


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    If you drive you vette like you do any other car, it will get great gas milage, simply keep it under 3000RPMs.
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    What?! You mean drive it like a senior-citizen looking for someplace to park? No thanks. What's the point of having a performance car and then not using the performance? I routinely have my Jaguar over 5000 revs. Like I said before, if you drive a Corvette the way it is meant to be driven, your mileage won't get out of the teens.


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    And almost all turboed cars are less efficient than NA.
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    No, they aren't. That's the whole point of turbo-charging an engine - to make it more efficient without increasing size or weight significantly. The disadvantage of a turbo-charged engine is the turbo-lag and compromized throttle-response but in GTs like Porsche 911s and sedans like the various Mercedes turbos, you won't really notice.

    It is only when turbocharging sports cars that things get tricky because of the light weight. Despite your howls of protest, sports cars are all about light weight and balance. The Lotus Elise is the quintessential sports car. If it had more power, the Mazda Miata would be a fine sports car. In fact, with its superb chassis and balance, I'm surprised Mazda never offered one with a small V8 or supercharged I-4. Ideally it would have an I-6 but fitting one in that short chassis would be difficult.


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    Cant argue with you about the TVR they are great, but still to expencive.
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    They're not as expensive as you seem to think. New, they are in the same price range as a Corvette or Viper (depending on the model) and you can pick them up used for a song. Sports cars depreciate quite badly in the UK. I've seen Griffiths and Chimeras from the days of the Rover engine in the 10k-15k range. A used Cerbera with the 4.2 liter TVR engine can be had for £15k-20k used. And you can pick up a used Tuscan (my personal favorite) for £25k-£30k, I've even seen cars with air-con and chameleon paint in that price range.

    Not bad for a hand-crafted sports car and significantly cheaper than correspondingly new or used Corvettes. And for the price of a new Viper over here, I could have a TVR Typhon - the first supercharged TVR ever. Roughly the same power as the Viper and 1100lbs lighter. That's not a typo, The viper weighs about 3,300lbs and the Typhon weighs about 2,200. Isn't carbon-fiber cool?

     
  6. #31 DragStrip, May 18, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    Thats basically what a normal S2000 sounds like, its lame. Ive got that link already, weve already established that TVRs sound good.

    Lamborghini did not do anything for dodge, dodge regected their engine design. They used the engine block of the ram, not the whole engine it self. And in the later models designed a whole new V10.

    From your poit of view its pretty sad that car made "to just get by" are smoking cars made to be "the best."

    Did you even look at the links? It was compared to the EVO, murcelago, ferrari 575M maranello, jag XKR, mosler mt900, and the benz CL55 AMG. And there are more link comparing to the NSX, 911 turbo, BMWs, and ferraris. The vette killed the NSX around the track, and beat the 911 turbo, it kept up with the 360 modena, and smoked all the BMWs. Take a look at this link, the vette takes on everything in its price range and more, and the Camaro SS smokes the S2000 around the track too.
    http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=155&page_number=1
     
  7. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    Why dont you try something, go to EVOs website and look it up and stop complaining.
    Like ive said before the corvette is a ROAD car, cars that drive on the road have ABS for saftey reasons, ever stomp on the brake without ABS in the rain or snow?
    Whether you like it or not, if you cut th wheel hard on the elise, or just about any car, its going to spin out if you going fast enough.
    So you are constantly acclerating and speeding while driving? YDo you floor your car every where? For those that are mature enough to drive like a normal person, can get good gas milage. Save the speeding for the track.

    The point of turbo charging an engine is to make it more powerful, not efficient. If it were for efficentcy then why arnt all the hybrids turboed? And why do all the turboed cars get worse gas milage than most of the NA cars?

    You can buy 2 or 3 corvettes for the price of a TVR over in the states. Like you said before, its comparing apples to oranges.
     
  8. Re:

    today, pushrods seem fine. I mean, LS1 cars over in Oz are scoring on road tests up within the top 5 and even in the top 3.
     
  9. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

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    Thats basically what a normal S2000 sounds like, its lame
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    No, that isn't what a normal S2000 sounds like. I used to own one so I should know. It has a great sounding exhaust note when the high-lift cams kick on. It sounds a lot better than a Viper - just not as loud. Some people mistake volume for euphony. They are NOT the same thing.

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    Lamborghini did not do anything for dodge, dodge regected their engine design
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    Someone gave you bad information. Chrysler went to Lamborghini because they are one of the universally-acknowledged masters of large engine design. The fact that the V-12 they designed in the early 60s is still used today with only minor changes to the fuel-management systems is a pretty compelling argument. They also know a thing or two about designing/casting alloy blocks which is another reason Chrysler went to them.


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    The vette killed the NSX around the track
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    Of course, because it has a lot more power. That's always been the appeal of the Corvette - "brute force and ignorance". It is crap at going around corners and braking but good at coming out of the corners and going in a straight line because you can just nail the throttle and hang on so long as the steering wheel is pointed straight ahead at the time.

    Look at the difference between the cars in the slalom. Admittedly this isn't the best test because the Corvette can compensate for some of its handling/balance sins with big grip from massive tires. But even those things don't put it ahead of better cars. In fact the only car the Detroit neaderthals managed to outdo through the slalom is the car that had no business there: The Mercedes 500SL. Even the S2000 beat them and that's pretty sad considering how bad its handling is.

    American automotive journalists are the victimes of this bizarre collective psychosis in which they all imagine that handling=grip. If I want a car that won't punish me for driving like a moron, I'll buy a Nissan Skyline or Mitsubishi Evo.

     
  10. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

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    Why dont you try something, go to EVOs website and look it up and stop complaining.
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    I've done better, I've been to an actual dealer.


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    cars that drive on the road have ABS for saftey reasons
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    Well, you're partially right. They have ABS for safety reasons because they need ABS to be safe. They need ABS because they aren't designed to stop properly without it. Now, here's a question - what do you think happens when you go to stomp on the brakes and the ABS doesn't work properly? You're in a world of hurt. Cars would be safer if they weren't allowed to have the band-aid fix that is ABS. It would force manufacturers to design their cars properly and it would force people to learn how to drive them properly.

    The really sad thing is that ABS actually encourages people who don't understand how it works to drive in an unsafe manner because of their blind faith in the ability of ABS to allow them to violate the laws of physics.


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    ever stomp on the brake without ABS in the rain or snow?
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    Yes, actually, I have. One of the most enjoyable weeks of my life was the one I spend in a TVR Tuscan. The first day I had it, I took it out and practiced panic stops on a wet road to see what truth (if any) there was to TVR's claim that their cars don't need ABS and are safer without it. They're right. The brakes are astonishingly effective and impossible to lock up even on wet pavement. Why? Because it is a proper sports car - light weight and well-sorted.

    Incidentally, ABS actually increases braking distance dramatically in the snow (and gravel) because when you're panic-stopping in the snow (or gravel) you actually *want* the wheels to lock because it aids braking.

    ABS is just a marketing tool that has convinced an uninformed public that cars just aren't safe without it.


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    Whether you like it or not, if you cut th wheel hard on the elise, or just about any car, its going to spin out if you going fast enough.
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    I've driven an Elise as well as a Tuscan. I have no doubt that you could lose control of an Elise if that's what you wanted to do. No car is immune to being driven recklessly. But all the electronic aids in the world aren't going to rescue someone who is trying to get the rear end to step out. On the other hand, a properly-designed car like the Elise won't step out under normal situations and I include in those the times you'll have to swerve suddenly at freeway speeds to avoid something that suddenly appears in the road in front of you.

    Do you think it is an SUV or something?


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    So you are constantly acclerating and speeding while driving?
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    Constantly? No. But I do a lot of driving on two-lane roads and regularly have occasion to pass large trucks. Also, I derive a certain amount of admittedly childish pleasure from humbling hairdressers in their Porsches who pull up beside me and rev their engines in what they think is a butch manner. I switch off the traction-control and when the light goes green I drop the hammer and accelerate to the indicated speed limit more quickly than them. I even kept up with an uber-hairdresser in his Ferrari 355 once.

    So when you're driving a Corvette, you never have to pass anyone or get on the freeway from a short onramp?

    The idea that someone would buy a performance car and then keep it below 3000rpm and at 1/4 throttle the whole time is absurd.


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    The point of turbo charging an engine is to make it more powerful, not efficient
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    It does both. You get the extra power when you rev the engine hard to spool up the turbo(s) and you get the fuel-efficiency of the smaller-displacement/lower-compression engine the rest of the time.


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    If it were for efficentcy then why arnt all the hybrids turboed?
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    Because it would defeat their purpose. The whole idea of a hybrid is to tune the engine to run with maximum efficiency at a set rpm - like the engine on a generator.

    The question you should be asking is whether diesel engines are turbocharged. Most of them are nowdays because they are more efficient that way.

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    And why do all the turboed cars get worse gas milage than most of the NA cars?
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    I don't think they do. Just to pick one at random, the Lotus Elise S4s gets real-world mileage in the high 20s - I know a couple of former owners. Not bad for a 1995 model year car with more than 300bhp that was more than a match for the Corvettes of the day.


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    You can buy 2 or 3 corvettes for the price of a TVR over in the states.
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    No, actually, you can't. You would expect to pay about $65k for a TVR T350c delivered to your door (though you wouldn't be able to register it for use on public roads). And that's only because of the disgraceful exchange rate of $1.78 to the pound (thanks Dubya!). It should be about $1.25. If that were true, the same car would cost about $46.5k including about $2k for shipping it to your nearest port. Now, compare that to the price of a Z06. Even at $65k the car isn't a lot more expensive than a Z06 - certainly not 2x or 3x the price.


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    Like you said before, its comparing apples to oranges
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    Well, actually, more like comparing a silk purse to a sow's ear.
     
  11. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    Alright so you supposedly onwed an S2000, thats not believable, but ill go with it. Like i said ive head many S2000 exhaust notes, they all sound like your typical honda I4, go-cart like, and farty.
    Everywhere ive looked for the vipers history i always find that dodge did not use lamborghinis engine design, so unless you can prove me wrong with out using a fan site then im sticking with it.
    Actually at the wheels the Vette and the NSX have similar hp, but the vette has more torque. And the normal vette is heavier than the NSX, and the Z06 is lighter. The Z06 out handles the NSX in every article ive seen, and the normal vette is almost even with the NSX. Ill be glad to post the numerous articles where the Z06 destorys the NSx on various tracks, and not because of power.
    Tell me then what is your definition of handling? When grip is lost? So in a car on the ice sliding everywhere is handling? Handling has to do with grip, why do you think cars use downforce? Stability around turns, and being able to hang on. F1 cars some of the best handling vehicles in the world, and they are all about grip.
     
  12. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    You could easily make up the price that the "dealer" said, im just giving you hard facts.
    I agree with you that ABS does make people more dependant on it, but it will help you is freak accidents.
    ABS was made so you can manouver the vehicle in conditions where your normal brakes would lock up and throw you into a spin. If your sliding with your tires locked up in the snow or gravel and you turn the wheel your rear is going to throw out.
    SCI magizine took out a Z06 and tested its active handling. Quoted from Sports car international magazine "With this program activated the Corvette would rocket out of tight turns, get completely sideways, then immedietly recover as if guided by a gyroscpe." You can drive this car without being a professional, and still be safe from spinning out in any condition. Like I said before Elise would spin out if provoked enough, and with active handling on, you couldnt get the vette more than sideways. BTW SUVs dont spin out, they tip.
    I asked if you constantly accelerate because you claimed you dont keep your Jag under 5000RPMs, and in that case you would constantly acclerate. Ok now you say that you accelerate to the speed limit, and lets say a Corvette does this too. Once at the speed limit wouldnt it be nice to also get good gas milage? At full throttle the Corvette doesnt consume anymore gas than would an EVO, or any other peromance I4 engine. What I meat by keeping it under 3000RPMs is you can play all you want and accelerate as hard as you want, but once you reach the speed limit your done, leagally. Then you keep it at the low RPMs, and drive "normal."
    Ok let me rephrase this, the point of turbo charging a perfomace engine is for power, not efficientcy. Look at some turbo I4s compared to NA engines mpg.
    EVO 18/25
    Supra Turbo 19/24
    Skyline R34 GTR 14/23
    300ZX TT 18/24
    911 Turbo 15/22
    Corvette 19/27
    Camaro SS 18/27
    Mustang Cobra 16/24
    GTO 18/27

    If im not mistaken you said so your self its about 20K to import a car, and thats just to get it from A to B. Every TVR Ive seen has been well over $70K, and most being $100K+USD.

    No its more like practicality to striped down track car. Both have their place, like i said the vette was made to be inexpecive, and practical to drive on the street.
     
  13. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

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    Alright so you supposedly onwed an S2000, thats not believable
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    Oh dear, you don't believe me? Whatever will I do? Here's a picture of two of my cars. I don't have the Honda any more but I kept the XJR.


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    Everywhere ive looked for the vipers history i always find that dodge did not use lamborghinis engine design, so unless you can prove me wrong with out using a fan site then im sticking with it.
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    Here's a quote from from Francois J. Castaing who was one of the key figures in the Viper's development:


    ***
    "We knew the Team was working at least 18 months ahead of the truck engine,” Castaing recalled. “So I said ‘lets modify [the truck V-10] the way we feel we want to have it [for the Viper].’ And we decided we wanted to go with aluminum, replace the [truck unit’s] cast-iron block and head with aluminum. I suggested using Lamborghini’s prototyping abilities and experience with aluminum to help us make the conversion and save time. The deal we had with [Mauro] Forghieri [from Lamborghini] was that Lamborghini would help us redesign the block and head for aluminum conversion, and then cast parts for, say, 15 engines as fast as they could in their Formula 1 shops. They assembled the first two aluminum engines, to make sure all the parts and machining were okay, and then shipped everything back. We then took over completely. Everything else was done right here [in Detroit].”


    A V-10 prototype was up and running in mid-April 1990.

    The V-10 is based on the originally designed for Dodge’s 1994 T300 truck line.

    It’s block and heads were cast in weigh-saving aluminum, rather than iron. Though engineers pared 100 pounds from the truck unit’s weight, the Viper version still flattens the scales at 716 pounds. It’s bulky as well. This is due in part to a 90-degree cylinder bank angle (as in V-8), rather than the 72 degree desirable for even firing pulses in a V-10. Still, the crankshaft-forged steel, of course-has throws arranged for 72 degrees. This gives close to even-firing without split throws. It also gives a rather lumpy idle. "
    ***

    [End quote]

    So, the Viper has a truck engine. Everyone knows it. I looks like a truck engine, sounds like a truck engine and behaves like a truck engine - that is all the power is generated low-down in the rev-range and it runs out of steam above around 5000 revs.



    ---
    Actually at the wheels the Vette and the NSX have similar hp
    ---

    Boy, I sure hope not. If so, that means the Corvette has the crappiest transmission and rear-end ever. At the flywheel, the engine has almost 120bhp more than the NSX. Are you saying it pisses all that extra power away?


    ---
    And the normal vette is heavier than the NSX, and the Z06 is lighter.
    ---

    According to supercars.net stats, they all weigh around 1400kg. Pretty lardy by todays standards and the reason none of them will be considered sports cars.


    ---
    The Z06 out handles the NSX in every article ive seen, and the normal vette is almost even with the NSX. Ill be glad to post the numerous articles where the Z06 destorys the NSx on various tracks, and not because of power.
    ---

    No, the Z06 doesn't outhandle the NSX, not even close. I'll grant you that there may be a few automotive journalists out there dumb enough to think otherwise and actually write down their opinions, but that doesn't make them true.

    Not because of power? What other advantage does the Corvette have? None.


    ---
    Tell me then what is your definition of handling? When grip is lost? So in a car on the ice sliding everywhere is handling? Handling has to do with grip
    ---

    The definition of handling is how easy the car is to slide around corners when that's what the driver wants to do and how controllable the car is when the back lets go. It is trickier (but certainly not impossible) to make a mid-engine car handle as well as one with the engine in front. But Honda has done it with the NSX. Ferrari has been doing it since the 80s and Lotus has been doing it since the early 1970s. Chevy, on the other hand, hasn't figured it out yet. They're coming closer, the new Corvettes are light-years better than those of even just a few years ago, but they've got a long road ahead of them yet until the poor old Corvette can hold its head up with the best if the Europeans and Japanese.

    Handling is nothing to do with grip. Grip is good. Don't get me wrong. I think we all agree that it is good for a car to go where it is pointed. However, when you're going aroung a track, that isn't always possible and sometimes it isn't even desireable. Sometimes you can get around coners faster if you slide a little. Some cars are willing to slide and are easily controllable.

    But, at the end of the day, grip is an entirely different matter from handling. The Mazda Miata is one of the best handling mass-produced roadcars in the world and it doesn't have bags of power or grip.

    Like I said before, this is why cars like a lowly TVR T350C can show a Lamborghini Murcielago (with tons more power AND grip) the way around a twisty course that a Corvette, Viper or Camaro just couldn't live with.

    ---
    why do you think cars use downforce? Stability around turns, and being able to hang on.
    ---

    Right, but sometimes you don't want the car to stay planted on the corners. See above.

    Also, the stanbility you mention is as much to do with counteracting understeer as anything else. Keep the car suctioned to the road as best you can and the front tires will have an easier time getting the car to change direction properly.

    Detroit typically just fits their cars with enormous front wheels which has a similar effect but with some unwanted by-products like tramlining under braking.

    ---
    F1 cars some of the best handling vehicles in the world
    ---

    No they aren't. They are some of the highest-downforce cars in the world assuming you can drive on a road where a fraction of an inch of ground-clearance is practical - which is nowhere in the real world. Back to your bizarre comparisons again I see...

     
  14. #39 Jon Gwynne, May 22, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    ---
    You could easily make up the price that the "dealer" said, im just giving you hard facts.
    ---

    So don't take my word for it, go to their web site...

    http://www.bauer-millett.com/

    And you're not giving "facts", you're talking about think that you claim to have read in a book somewhere. I'm talking about the real world.


    ---
    If your sliding with your tires locked up in the snow or gravel and you turn the wheel your rear is going to throw out.
    ---

    Old joke -

    Patient: Hey doc, it hurts when I do this...

    Doctor: Then don't do that.

    Actually, ABS isn't going to help someone who tries to throw in a little opposite-lock when they're brakes lock up in the snow.


    ---
    Like I said before Elise would spin out if provoked enough
    ---

    The key word here is "enough". ANY car will spin out "if provoked enough" and all the electronic wizardry in the world won't change this. The question is whether you want to be a passenger while sitting in the driver's seat - whether you want the car to drive for you. People who need (or even just want) that kind of help have no business driving a powerful car.


    ---
    I asked if you constantly accelerate because you claimed you dont keep your Jag under 5000RPMs
    ---

    I said I routinely exceed 5000 revs. That doesn't mean I do it all the time, just that I don't have any problem exploiting the rev range when it is appropriate to do so.


    ---
    At full throttle the Corvette doesnt consume anymore gas than would an EVO, or any other peromance I4 engine.
    ---

    Are you seriously trying to claim that a 5.7 liter V-8 doesn't consume more fuel under hard acceleration than a 2.0 liter four-pot? There is no way that Chevy could keep that engine running for more than 30k-40k miles between rebuilds if they ran that lean a mixture.

    Look at the differences between the bore/stroke for those engines and then figure out how you can get the same amount of fuel to generate almost twice as much power not only in a larger combustion chamber but in twice as many of them.

    ---
    Look at some turbo I4s compared to NA engines mpg.
    EVO 18/25
    Supra Turbo 19/24
    Skyline R34 GTR 14/23
    300ZX TT 18/24
    911 Turbo 15/22
    Corvette 19/27
    Camaro SS 18/27
    Mustang Cobra 16/24
    GTO 18/27
    ---

    This list/comparison is meaningless. First of all, there are too many variables that have nothing to do with the effeciency of the engine - i.e. weight, 2wd/4wd rear-end gearing differences, transmission gearing differences, etc... Second, there's no consistency of terminology or methodology here.

    Stop and think for a moment how a turbocharger works. It forcefeeds air into the engine at high revs so that you get more peak power. However, at low revs (i.e. normal freeway cruising) you have all the benefits of a low-compression, small-displacement engine. In other words, it is as fuel-efficient as a Honda Civic while cruising.


    ---
    If im not mistaken you said so your self its about 20K to import a car
    ---

    I said nothing of the sort. I pointed out that if you buy a car in the US and then have it shipped to the UK (i.e. someone buying a Corvette) you will have to pay the British equivalent of sales tax (VAT) on the vehicle which is 17.5%. Thus, for a $51,000 Z06, you'll looking at writing HM Customs and Excise a cheque for $9000. That's in addition to whatever duties you might have to pay.

    If you import a car into the states, you don't have to pay sales tax to US customs or the IRS.

    ---
    Every TVR Ive seen has been well over $70K, and most being $100K+USD.
    ---

    Where have you seen TVRs for sale?


    ---
    No its more like practicality to striped down track car
    ---

    Are you sure you're talking about TVRs? Or maybe it is just that you've never been in one. I mean, I've driven several of them and none could be described as a "stripped down track car". They are comfortable and even luxurious with hand-stitched leather upholstery and exquisitely hand-crafted wood/aluminum/brass detailing. You see, a small-volume manufacturer like TVR can't afford to use the cheap, plastic crap interiors you get from Detroit because of the up-front costs involved in setting up the injection-molding equipment.

    Speaking of practicality, the most power TVR currently in production (at least until the 500+bhp Typhon is released), the 440bhp Cerbera 4.5 Red Rose not only has a trunk bigger than you normally see on a German luxo-barge but it has usable back seats - well one of them, anyway. It can seat three adults (there is more room behind the passenger seat than behind the driver) and one child behind the driver. TVR even offer the car with a removable, hand-built, color-matched baby seat that can be placed in the back seat and safely secured. Who said you had to choose between a supercar and a family?

    http://www.jamesagger.com/news.asp?id=106

    (p.s. check out some of the other pictures under the used cars links, you'll see what an interior of a TVR is really like)

    Face it, your 'vette just can't hold up its head over here. The only people who buy them are a handful of pop-stars and footballers who want them for the pose factor and don't car about the awful handling, the steering wheel on the wrong side and the shabby plastic interior.
     
  15. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    It just doesnt sound like your old enough to afford an S2000, being that your on the internet arguning with kids about cars, and on top of that being very close minded and biased.
    Like I said before, the V10 is based off the rams engine BLOCK, its not the same engine. They modified just about everything on that engine to get it to the perforamce they wanted. The original idea of the Viper was to beat the Shelby cobra from 0-100-0. Dodge wanted to build a high power hot rod, and they did.
    Are you now saying there is something wrong with having low end torque? The higher you have to rev your engine to get usable power, the longer its going to take to acclerate. Most supercars have their peak torque under 5000RPMs, and the TVR Griffith 500 has its maximum torque at 4000RPMs. BTW the Vipers peak torque is at 4600RPMs, and peak power at 5600RPMs, so agian your wrong.

    You really need to start looking up things. The Corvette has 350HP, and the NSX has 290HP. Suposedly the NSX has an excelent drive train, and very little power is lost to the wheels. The Corvette at the wheels has about 310-320HP, and Ive heard the NSX has about 280.
    The Corvette weighs 3246lbs, the Z06 weighs 3118, and the NSX weighs 3156lbs, which today is very light for the class they are in. Their leading compeditors are all heavier, and even supercars like the Enzo are heavier. Its obveous the lighter the better, but that does not define a sports car.
    By your definition of "handling" the corvette Z06 does not "handle" or i should say drift as good as the NSX, but then agian the NSX is mid engined. You definiton of handling is simply put the ability to drift. Drifting is certainly not the quickest way to take a cornet, especcially on a larger track. Handling is being able to take a corner at X speed. Handling and drifting are two different things. And F1 cars ARE some of the best handling cars in the world.

    BTW the only production japanese car that can take the Z06 around the nur is the NSX-R, nothing else stood a chance. ID expect most of the european cars to be it on their own turf, but many fail.
     
  16. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    That "dealer" site looks like some kid learned HTML, and did his first project... The facts im talking about is the MSRP. A dealership can easily over price cars if their doing bad.
    I dont know if i can put it any more clear to you. If your trying to slow down and avoid something and the road is covered in snow, with out ABS your going to slide. When your brakes lock up you cannot turn like you can when they are not locked up. ABS rapidly squeezes the rotors so there is no lock up and you can turn our vehicle normal. Its not a hard concept to understand.
    My point is any car WITHOUT active handling will spin out, WITH active handling IT WILL NOT. Is that clear enough for you?
    Did you forget that the EVO is turbocharged runnging 14psi of boost? This is not some kind of economy 4, its a high performace gas guzzling turbo engine.
    Obveously its not as fuel efficint, being that all those turbo cars were driven normal to test the efficientcy. Youd have to keep your car at a super low RPM to not make the turbo kick in. BTW better fuel injectors are almost allways installed with a turbo, i.e. squits more fuel.
    When you ship something to the states you do have to pay an import tax.
    The TVRs i see for sale are mostly in "Du Point registry" magizines.

    As far as pratical goes, the Corvette still has more interior gadgets that you would see on a luxury car. The vette has never been known for interior quality, but I rather save the money on the car and have the "not so good" interior. Everthing you see on those TVR come standard on a vette, or most other sports cars.
     
  17. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    The argument about ABS, well ABS does save lives. If you are driving and something pulls in the way in a manner that you have to use full brake power then you will lock up your tires. What this does is it increases your stopping distance and you can not turn when all 4 tires are locked up. Also the car tends to pull in one direction when this happens. How ABS works is it has speed sensors on all wheels equiped with ABS being a 2 wheel system or a 4 wheel system. When these sensors detect that one or more wheels are slowing down faster then the others it releases brake pressure on the wheel and re-applies it. It uses hydrolics to do this and it will do it repeatidly until the wheels speed is in line with the rest. This keeps you from entering a 4 wheel lock up which shortens the stopping distance and keeps you under control. However it has been found that it also allows your car to stop faster in general. Even on dry surface, if you are going 100MPH and you use enough brake pressure to maximize stopping without locking up then at 90MPH the amount of pressure needed changes. ABS keeps you on the edge of braking.

    Now the issue of fuel efficency, plenty of people drive their Corvettes in a way that will get them best gas mileage. Esp. when you look at gas prices right now.

    And the ZR1 was vary expensive due to 2 things, its engine was expensive and they made vary few since they couldnt sell them.




     
  18. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    ---
    It just doesnt sound like your old enough to afford an S2000, being that your on the internet arguning with kids about cars
    ---

    Don't be so hard on yourself, you may just be a kid, but one day you'll be old enough to drive a real sports car.

    BTW, I am old enough to know the difference between "your" and "you're".


    ---
    and on top of that being very close minded and biased.
    ---

    It is called "being right".



    ---
    Like I said before, the V10 is based off the rams engine BLOCK, its not the same engine
    ---

    Yeah, they had Lamborghini re-cast the block in aluminum and had them tweak it slightly to boost the output. It is still a truck engine.


    ---
    The original idea of the Viper was to beat the Shelby cobra from 0-100-0.
    ---

    Too bad they failed.


    ---
    Are you now saying there is something wrong with having low end torque?
    ---

    Yeah, the problem with having too much low-end torque is that it makes the car harder to control and get off the line effectively. That's one of the downsides of using a truck engine in a performance car.


    ---
    The higher you have to rev your engine to get usable power, the longer its going to take to acclerate.
    ---

    Not if it has good throttle-response.


    ---
    Most supercars have their peak torque under 5000RPMs, and the TVR Griffith 500 has its maximum torque at 4000RPMs.
    ---

    That's because it dates back to the days when TVR couldn't afford to build their own engines so they used the pushrod Rover V-8.


    ---
    The Corvette weighs 3246lbs, the Z06 weighs 3118, and the NSX weighs 3156lbs, which today is very light for the class they are in.
    ---

    What class is that? The "lardass" class? The Lamborghini Gallardo weighs 3240lbs and that's with all the Audi-inspired teutonic GT engineering and the several hundred pounds worth of 4WD gear it lugs around.

    Marcos just announced their new TS500 with a 320bhp V-8 (probably Ford in origin - OHC of course) that is only slightly smaller than the Corvette and yet weighs full thousand pounds less. Various TVRs (Tuscans, Cerberae, etc...) are larger still and yet weigh about the same. Nobles weigh even less. The list goes on.


    ---
    and even supercars like the Enzo are heavier.
    ---

    No, the Enzo, at 3000lbs, is noticeably lighter. But it is the Eric Cartman of the current crop of supercars. The Pagani Zonda is slightly lighter, the Koenigsegg is dramatically lighter and if the upcoming TVR Typhon - Blackpool's first foray into the Supercar world comes out on target, it will weigh 800lbs less than the Enzo giving it a better power:weight ratio.


    ---
    BTW the only production japanese car that can take the Z06 around the nur is the NSX-R, nothing else stood a chance
    ---

    And when the Japanese manufacturers get past this little mental block they have about their production cars having to peak at 287bhp (as the next-generation NSX seems willing to do) then expect to see some serious Corvette-pasting at the 'ring. BTW, the only reason the Corvette does as well as it does on that track is because it favors power over handling.



     
  19. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    ---
    That "dealer" site looks like some kid learned HTML, and did his first project...
    ---

    I guess they're too busy selling cars to worry what you think of their web site.


    ---
    The facts im talking about is the MSRP
    ---

    Which only applies in the US.


    ---
    If your trying to slow down and avoid something and the road is covered in snow, with out ABS your going to slide
    ---

    Yes, and because of that slide, you're going to stop faster than if you had ABS.


    ---
    My point is any car WITHOUT active handling will spin out, WITH active handling IT WILL NOT. Is that clear enough for you?
    ---

    Yes, clear and clearly absurd. You seem to believe that computerized handling assisstance is some sort of magic wand that will prevent the driver from doing something stupid. It won't. ANY car will spin out if driven by a moron.


    ---
    Did you forget that the EVO is turbocharged runnging 14psi of boost? This is not some kind of economy 4, its a high performace gas guzzling turbo engine.
    ---

    Did YOU forget that it isn't running at 14psi the whole time? Only when it revs beyond a preset limit. This is why turbochargers are more efficient than superchargers and also why they're less desireable from a performance point of view because of the inevitable "turbo-lag" as you have to wait not only for the engine to rev up but for the turbos to spool up to speed as well.


    ---
    BTW better fuel injectors are almost allways installed with a turbo, i.e. squits more fuel.
    ---

    You meant to say that the uprated injection CAN deliver more fuel, not that they always do. Right?



    ---
    When you ship something to the states you do have to pay an import tax.
    ---

    Not necessarily, there are always ways to get the item in question exempted.


    ---
    The TVRs i see for sale are mostly in "Du Point registry" magizines.
    ---

    I've been reading the DuPont registry for years (on and off) and I have never seen a single TVR advertized for sale. I have seen Bugatti EB110s and Jaguar XJ220s though and they aren't street-legal in the US either so I suppose it isn't impossible but the DuPont registry isn't where I'd go looking for a TVR.

    I just went to their web site and a search for TVR didn't turn any up. They don't even have TVR on their drop-down list of makes to seach for.

    Hemmings Motor News would be a better bet (they at least have a section for TVR sales) but all you're likely to find there are the older TVRs from the days when they used to export to the states. Some Martin Lilley-era cars from the 1970s and maybe a wedge or two from the 80s (a 450 if you're lucky).


    ---
    As far as pratical goes, the Corvette still has more interior gadgets that you would see on a luxury car.
    ---

    Ah, gadgets... the better to distract the driver from the awful interior and the lamentable road-manners. By the way, what have gadgets to do with practicality?

    Oh yeah, and speaking of practicality, how many people can you get in the back seat of a Corvette?


    ---
    Everthing you see on those TVR come standard on a vette, or most other sports cars.
    ---

    And you can get it on a TVR as well as you just said. What's your point?

     
  20. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    ---
    ABS does save lives
    ---

    You know what would save even more lives? If cars were designed so that ABS wasn't needed.

    Some cars are designed that way. I tried deliberately to lock up the brakes of a TVR Tuscan on a wet road by stomping on them as hard as I could from about 40mph when no one else was near me on the road. It simply wasn't possible. The car just stopped - nearly putting me through the windshield in the process.

    It was as vivid a demonstration of Newton's First Law as I ever hope to experience firsthand. If the seat-belt tensioners hadn't caught me, I'd probably have fractured a couple of ribs on the steering wheel. I've never stopped that fast in a car before and I sincerely hope I never do it again. But it would be nice to know that I could if I had to.

    ---
    If you are driving and something pulls in the way in a manner that you have to use full brake power then you will lock up your tires. What this does is it increases your stopping distance and you can not turn when all 4 tires are locked up.
    ---

    What on earth makes you think that someone who isn't capable of simple cadence-braking would be able to steer in the middle of a panic-stop?


    ---
    [ABS] keeps you from entering a 4 wheel lock up which shortens the stopping distance
    ---

    Actually, it doesn't. Depending on the situation, you might want to lock up the wheels or even spin the car. It might help you to stop more safely. For example, in snow, gravel or loose dirt, the tendency of locked wheels to push the loose material ahead of them in an increasing pile causes the car to stop much more effectively.

    On an icy surface, it is usually advantageous to spin the car and thus scrub off the car's speed in rotational motion rather than lateral motion.

    ABS takes those choices away from the driver and even allows them to pretend that they don't need to understand the choices. Worse, it encourages people who don't understand how the system works (or the basic laws of physics) to drive faster than is safe for the conditions with the blind faith that ABS will rescue them in the event of trouble.



    Let's take an objective view. Every year, Autocar magazine runs their 0-100-0 shootout between various performance cars and every year cars from smaller manufacturers like TVR and Noble show faster braking times from 100mph compared to cars many would consider "safer" because they are fitted with ABS.

    A while back one of the car mags (I forget which) did a test on a Mercedes sedan which came with switchable ABS and they found that in nearly every case, the car stopped faster, safer and more controllably with the ABS switched off.

    ABS is a marketing ploy. It is like the expensive skin cream that is sold to women because it "helps reduce the appearance of aging" when it actually does very little if anything - apart from maybe smelling nice.

    ABS just "smells nice". It doesn't actually do much.


    ---
    if you are going 100MPH and you use enough brake pressure to maximize stopping without locking up then at 90MPH the amount of pressure needed changes.
    ---

    In the July 30th, 2003 issue of Autocar magazine, here are some example times for cars braking from 100mph to a dead stop:

    With ABS:

    Vauxhall VX220 Turbo: 4.72 seconds
    VW Golf: 4.69 seconds
    BMW M3: 4.61 seconds
    Lamborghini Murcielago: 4.41 seconds
    Subaru Impreza: 4.33 seconds.


    Without ABS:

    TVR Tuscan S: 4.15 seconds
    Noble M12: 4.11 seconds
    Pagani Zonda: 4.05 seconds
    Caterham R400: 3.79 seconds
    Caterham R500: 3.68 seconds


    By comparison, a Suzuki GSX-R superbike took 4.98 seconds to stop from 100mph. So, while none of these are bad times. It is pretty clear that the non-ABS-equipped bunch did better. At least the ultra-lightweight Vauxhall beast - it was lighter than everything in the non-ABS camp except the two Caterhams - should have done well but it didn't. Blame the ABS.

    Oh, and by the way. 75mph is about 100 feet/second. So, lest you think quibbling about tenths of a second is a waste of time. Each tenth represents about 5 feet of stopping distance at freeway speeds.

    Put another way, you're going 75mph and up in the road about 500 feet ahead of you is a jackknifed gasoline truck stopped dead across all lanes. ABS, yes or no? Would you rather be in the Lamborghini or the Pagani?
     
  21. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    Thats very cute, always the immature ones attack on the spelling or grammar.

    The first step is acceptance, and admitting your problem. Its ok to be bias, the best of us are, your taking it to an extreme.

    Dodge recaste the block, and then redesigned everything else. If it were a truck engine, its pretty sad that some hotrod with a truck engine is smoking cars double its price on the track.

    As far as the 0-100-0, the SRT-10 does it in 12.71 seconds, opposed to the Shelby series one's 14.7 seconds, or Cobras 13.6 seconds.

    The TVR Griffith 500 i am refering to is a 2001 model.

    Ive seen numerous weights for the Lamborghini Gallardo is from 3200lbs to 3500Lbs between car and driver, motor trend and other magazines. Like i said every car it their class (porche 911 turbo, BMW M3, Benz CLK 55 AMG, and others.) BTW TVRs are made of lighter materials, also more expencive.

    The Enzo is 3262lb according to Car and Driver.

    The only reason the corvette does so well is becuse of power? That doesnt make sence, on a track you have turns, you need good handling to get good times. Like i said there are numerous artilces that praise the corvettes handling, its not bad, but it shouldnt be compared to a car that weighs 1000lbs less, so dont.
     
  22. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    Sorry, just pointing out that the site doesnt look professional at all.

    MSRP only applies in the US? Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price applies anywhere the manufacturer suggests the retail price to be. On TVRs website they have MSRP.

    Obveously your not understanding the what im saying about the active handling program, you will not spin out. Sports Car international tested it, and could not spin out. Like i quoted before, they rocketed through turns, got completely sideways and the program guieded the car back. You cannout spin out, its that simple.

    We were arguing on gas consumtion at full throttle right? At full throttle the EVO is running 14psi of boost. And under normal driving conditions the Corvette still get better gas milage either way. Tests have been done, it has been proven.

    Gadgets, like 6 disc cd player, power everything, bose speakers, heads up display, tire pressure readings, ect ect. The Corvettes "road manners" are always praised being an extremely smooth quiet ride. Do sports cars have back seats? No, no they dont, thats muscle cars and GTs.
     
  23. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    ---
    Thats very cute, always the immature ones attack on the spelling or grammar.
    ---

    How do the immature ones know the difference between good grammar or bad?

    ---
    The first step is acceptance, and admitting your problem
    ---

    Since when is being right a problem?

    ---
    Dodge recaste the block, and then redesigned everything else
    ---

    Says who?

    I just posted statements from one of the heads of the Viper project that says they used the Lambo-tweaked truck engine more or less as-is. Have you got anything that says different?

    ---
    If it were a truck engine, its pretty sad that some hotrod with a truck engine is smoking cars double its price on the track.
    ---

    Why would that be sad? Truck engines are powerful, they're just not idealy suited to sportscar applications when it comes to delivering that power.

    BTW, the only think smoking at the track are the Viper's tires. Plus, through the slalom (an equally important test of a would-be sports car's aptitude) the Viper shows its shorcomings.


    ---
    As far as the 0-100-0, the SRT-10 does it in 12.71 seconds, opposed to the Shelby series one's 14.7 seconds, or Cobras 13.6 seconds.
    ---

    The Shelby Series One isn't relevant to this discussion. Also, remember that the Cobra's original 0-100-0 time was on 1960s-era tires (and brakes). The company (AC) with whom Carroll Shelby collaborated to produce the Cobra is still in business and they still sell Cobras to this day. The modern equivalent of a Cobra can dispatch 0-100-0 in around 11 seconds with modern tires and brakes. Why? Because it is not only powerful like the Viper but it is light which the Viper isn't.

    Incidentally, that's why the Caterham R500 for less than half the price of a Viper can do the 0-100-0 dash in 11.25 with a 1.8 liter four-cylinder engine. It is ALL about weight. The fact that you don't think it is, suggests you don't know much about sportscars.

    ---
    The TVR Griffith 500 i am refering to is a 2001 model.
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    What's your point? The Griffith 500 used the same tuned Rover engine from the day it was introduced to when it was discontinued last year.


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    Ive seen numerous weights for the Lamborghini Gallardo is from 3200lbs to 3500Lbs
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    I'll go with the factory's figures.


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    Like i said every car it their class (porche 911 turbo, BMW M3, Benz CLK 55 AMG, and others.)
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    NONE of those cars is in the Corvette's "class". The Benz and BMW are both sedans and the Porsche is substantially more expensive.


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    BTW TVRs are made of lighter materials, also more expencive.
    ---

    TVRs are made out of the same materials as the Corvette. A steel frame, aluminum-alloy engine block and fiberglass body panels. The half-ton difference in weight is, therefore, all the more inexplicable.

    To be fair, the new TVR Typhon will reportedly be contructed from exotic materials like carbon-fiber and aerospace-spec aluminum honeycomb which will see it shed a couple of hundred pounds compared to its conventional bretheren and contributing to a list price equal to that of a Dodge Viper in the UK and Europe - around £80,000.


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    The only reason the corvette does so well is becuse of power? That doesnt make sence, on a track you have turns, you need good handling to get good times.
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    It makes perfect senSe. A more powerful but badly-handling car can make up for its deficiencies in the corners by higher speeds in the straights. That's why Corvettes and Vipers do well at the Nurnburgring. It isn't because of their ability to change direction quickly and accurately. Go back and read that article you postes before and compare the slalom times for the cars.


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    Like i said there are numerous artilces that praise the corvettes handling, its not bad, but it shouldnt be compared to a car that weighs 1000lbs less, so dont.
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    The real question is why doesn't the Corvette weigh less?






     
  24. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

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    just pointing out that the site doesnt look professional at all.
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    Sez you. In what way doesn't it look professional?


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    MSRP only applies in the US? Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price applies anywhere the manufacturer suggests the retail price to be.
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    Anywhere that the currency and taxation playing-field are the same. The US is one field. The UK is another. Europe is a third. Converting a US MSRP into Pounds or Euros isn't going to give you any indication of how much the car will sell for in those places.

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    On TVRs website they have MSRP.
    ---

    No, actually they don't. Unlike the Big Three, TVR sell directly to the public. You can go to Blackpool and buy a car from the factory. The prices listed are the prices you will pay if you buy a car from TVR. The dealers can charge what they like but they'd be foolish to charge more than the factory, wouldn't they?


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    Obveously your not understanding the what im saying about the active handling program, you will not spin out.
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    I understand the point you're trying to make. I'm just saying that you're wrong. No technology on earth will completely eliminate the possibility of a spinout. If you believe otherwise, you don't belong behing the wheel of a car.


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    they rocketed through turns, got completely sideways and the program guieded the car back
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    And the driver had nothing to do with it? Nonsense.


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    We were arguing on gas consumtion at full throttle right?
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    No, we were talking about real-world fuel economy in which a car spends a certain amount of time at full throttle. When an Evo is cruising at freeway speed there is little or no boost. At that point, it is just another 2.0 liter four-pot but with lower compression to accomodate the turbos when they come on line. So, the engine will consume significantly less fuel than a 5.7 liter V-8.


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    Gadgets, like 6 disc cd player, power everything, bose speakers, heads up display, tire pressure readings
    ---

    Well, TVR has the important things on that list in their cars too. Actually, you have more flexibility with regard to the stereo and speakers than you do with a Corvette. They don't have the preposterous HUD though but who cares? Getting the tire-pressure readings live and displaying them to the driver is clever but ultimately a long run for a short slide. It increases the cost of both the car and the tires for negligible benefit. All that hassle just to avoid checking your tire pressure by hand?

    BTW, what happens if you want to buy a set of tires that isn't compatibe with the system?


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    The Corvettes "road manners" are always praised being an extremely smooth quiet ride
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    Yeah, that's one of the reasons it doesn't go around corners as well as those cars that are lighter and sprung a little more stiffly. Extra weight and soft damping are great if you want a Cadillac but terrible if you want to go around corners.


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    Do sports cars have back seats? No, no they dont, thats muscle cars and GTs.
    ---

    Well, as we've already established, the Corvette isn't really a sports car. Actually it is a muscle car which is the crude, American equivalent of a GT. Where is it written that GTs have to have back seats? The Viper is a muscle-car and doesn't have them. The Lamborghini Murcielago is a GT and doesn't have them. GTs may or may not have back seats.

    Or are you one of those people who think muscle cars are all Hemi 'cudas and the like?

     
  25. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    Yes in snow dirt and loose gravel you do want to loack up the brakes for increase stopping distance. All I need is to find someplace where there is dirt loose gravel or snow in the road.

    And a vary light car that weighs lets say 2,300 pounds without ABS will stop faster then a 3,800 pound car with ABS. Its not becuase of the fact that those cars didnt have ABS its due to their lightness.

    While the 2,700 pound none ABS Zonda was able to pull a 60-0: in 110feet the 3,118 pound Z06 Corvette with ABS did it in 103 feet. ANd even more impressive the the 3,380 pound Viper SRT-10 did it in 97 feet. the buttom line is when you pick a bunch of light weights vs cars that are considerably heavier the lighter ones will stop faster ABS or no ABD. But the lighter cars would have stopped even faster if they had ABS.
     

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