The engine made it so expensive.

Discussion in '1993 Chevrolet Corvette Coupe ZR1' started by hondalover, Jun 16, 2003.

  1. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

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    Grip shows how well the car is capable of handling...
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    No, grip shows how able the car is to hold onto the road. Handling is about how well a car can handle corners. Grip is one element of course but there are a lot of others - like whether the car oversteers or understeers, how controllable the rear-end is when it starts to slide, etc...


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    Im getting sick of you calling the Corvette a "Detroit car" its made Bowling Green Kentucky, not all American cars are made in Detroit...
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    Yeah, and Honda has a plant in Alabama. What's your point?

    In the meantime, GM's corporate headquarters is still in Detroit, right?
     
  2. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

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    Not everyone wants to buy a little compact car like the Elise, or other smaller european cars. Many people view them as "gay" and "feminye."
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    Only morons.


    BTW, a TVR Cerbera weighs around 2500lbs, has seating for four, is taller and wider than a Corvette Z06 and almost as long (only 11 inches shorter). Yet it is made out of the same low-tech materials as a Corvette (steel, fiberglass and leather), no carbon-fiber or Kevlar.

    Not all light cars are small. Or do you consider a Corvette Z06 a small, "gay" car?

    Well, perhaps compared to a Cerbera, it is. ;->



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    buying an SUV to tow, being able to go off road, take the family places with out being crammed, and go on trips comfortably
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    Most SUVs sold to the suburban mob today are almost completely useless for offroad applications. They're too soft and lame.

    Face it, they're an affectation - a fad. And one that needs to go the way of polyester leisure-suits as soon as possible.

    You don't need an SUV to tow things. And unless you're a Mormon, your family will fit just fine in an ordinary car with a back seat.

    Some married friends of mine have three kids and they can fit the entire clan - mom, dad and the kids, into their Volvo station-wagon along with their dog and they're still able to tow thing with it.


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    You want to charge people for what they like or prefer?
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    It already happens. There is tax on gasoline, gas-guzzling cars, booze, cigarettes and all sorts of things that people need to be encouraged to use less of.

    Lighter, safer, more fuel-efficient cars are something that the country needs more of.


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    Like the Lotus Elise for example, will not suit everyones needs.
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    I never said it would.


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    The onoly way i would buy on is if i raced on a small track, or there were very many twisty roads around me, and i never stayed in the car for more than an hour. And not to mention the car has no A/C
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    Actually, you're wrong, it does have A/C. Originally it was an option in Britain and Europe, but for the 111R model which is being sold in the US as well, air-con is standard equipment.


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    ABS isnt all about "panic stops", some times if you have to slow down quickly(more quickly than normal), becuase of say an animal in the road you might press the brake slowly down to the stoping point, if the tires start to lockup ABS kicks in and allow you to still manover around the object.
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    Excuse me, but didn't you just describe a "panic-stop"?

    You obviously don't understand what ABS is, how it works or why it was developed.


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    As i hope you know most of Americas road are strait, and most people would rather have a car that rides good than have one that handles real good.
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    Yeah, that's why European performance cars like Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Lotus, Ferrari, etc... which run rings in the handling department around American cars with their mushbucket suspensions and sell so poorly in the US, right?

    BTW, I was born and raised in California and there are lots of twisty roads there (and a fair number of straight one too).
     
  3. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    Dragstrip, do what I did and just give up on him. Ive wasted a bit too much time posting in this thread that no one will even see.
     
  4. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    A carbon fiber frame? Not quite the C5R still uses the aluminum frame the C5 uses. So they used carbon fiber on the body panels, does that make it a different car? The 04 CE Z06 has a carbon fiber hood, is it a different car from the 03 Z06?
     
  5. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    The Corvette has never been built anywhere but in Bowling Green, as far as GMs headquarters im not sure ill look into that, although it doesnt effect that the Corvette is a "kentucky car" being the only place that it is built.
    Honda originated in japan right?
     
  6. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    I never said that all small cars are light, or all light cars are small. I personally rather be driving a truck than a mini, or most other cars of that size.

    The SUVs your refering to are mainly the Japanese ones, like the honda pilot and other such FWD SUVs.
    How are they an affectation? Whats truly wrong with SUVs themselves, most people hate on the drivers of the SUVs, not the actuall car itself.
    Could a family of 6 fit in an "ordinary" car comfortably? What about cars like the Mini, they have back seats. Sorry but your not going to beable to cram your whole family into a small car all at once.
    As for the Volvo station wagon, what the differnce between that and an SUV? They both take up as much space, and most of the time consume as much fuel.
    "Lighter, safer, more fuel-efficient cars are something that the country needs more of."
    I agree with you but we dont NEED lighter cars, as long as their not perfomance cars they dont need to be light. We do need to make safer SUVs, and many companies are working on it.
    As far as i know the 111R model is not being sold in the US, on the 190 model is available.
    So any stop that requires more brake pressure than normal is a "panic stop?" Ill try to explain this so you can understand. You slow down more quickly when you apply more pressure to the brakes right? So you wan to slow down more quickly than normal in this certain situation, so you apply more pressure than normal. Without ABS there is a chance of your brakes locking up and you looseing control, with ABS your brakes will not lock up and you can remain in control of your vehicle.
    You obveously dont understand how ABS work or why it was developed... Why would someone develope something that hurts the braking distance of your car, say it helps although it obveously doesnt, then companies put that system on their car for a marketing sceme?
    ABS allow the driver to manouver their vehicle while holding the brakes down to the limit.
    Yes thats exactly why the Z06 is able to beat a 911turbo, 360 modena, any MB in its price range, M3 and M5, XKR, XJR, ELise and Eprit around a track. And the Viper, Ford GT, Saleen S7, and Molser MT900 wont have a problem beating any of the cars ive named either.
     
  7. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    Well ive proved him wrong numerous times, and he has no proof of anything he says, maybe something will click soon...
     
  8. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

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    A carbon fiber frame? Not quite the C5R still uses the aluminum frame the C5 uses. So they used carbon fiber on the body panels, does that make it a different car?
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    Based on what little I've read about the car, it had a carbon-fiber chassis and body panels. You don't drop almost a thousand pounds from the weight of the a street Corvette simply by ripping out the soundproofing and replacing fiberglass body-panels with carbon-fiber.


    This was, for all intents and purposes, a completely different car from the production Corvette - developed practically from the ground-up by Pratt & Miller and others... Granted they used the Corvette as a starting point but saying they are the same car is like saying that a Saleen S7 is really a souped-up Mustang.


     
  9. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

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    the Corvette is a "kentucky car" being the only place that it is built.
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    Where a car is built is irrelevant. Nobles are built in South Africa but they're still British cars.

    GM is a Detroit company, that is all that matters. They could build the cars in Bangladesh (and with the current fad for "outsourcing" currently embraced in the US, that might not be too far in the future) and it would still be an American car.

    Hondas built in Alabama are still Japanese cars, right?
     
  10. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

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    The SUVs your refering to are mainly the Japanese ones, like the honda pilot and other such FWD SUVs.
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    And the Cadillac Escalade, the BMW X-5, Porsche Cayenne, etc...


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    How are they an affectation? Whats truly wrong with SUVs themselves, most people hate on the drivers of the SUVs, not the actuall car itself.
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    SUVs are an affectation when the people who buy them don't go anywhere near offroad with them. Suburban software developers and soccer-moms who buy them as a trendy alternative to the station-wagon or mini-van are buying them for their "pose" factor, not because they actually use the vehicles as they were intended.


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    As for the Volvo station wagon, what the differnce between that and an SUV? They both take up as much space, and most of the time consume as much fuel.
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    Nonsense, you could stack two Volvo station-wagons on top of one another and still take up less space than one of those preposterous Lincoln Navigators - a car that is completely useless offroad and thus fails at its fundamental raison d'etre.


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    I agree with you but we dont NEED lighter cars, as long as their not perfomance cars they dont need to be light.
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    Wrong. Lighter cars are inherently safer. Ergo, heavier cars are inherently less safe.


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    We do need to make safer SUVs, and many companies are working on it.
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    There is no such thing as a "safe" SUV. The creature doesn't exist. It is like someone saying that the only thing wrong with motorcycles is that they don't provide good protection from weather and saying that we need to design a motorcycle with an enclosed compartment for driver and passengers... While you're at it, throw on another wheel or two to stop it tipping over when it comes to a stop. It isn't a motorcycle anymore at that point.

    SUVs are great if you're driving cross-country. If you're driving on paved, public roads in traffic, they are a menace - to those in the SUV and to those around them.

    Europe has imposed new design critera for all new vehicles to be sold there and not one single SUV will be able to meet them. By the time these new regs come into force (2007, I think) SUVs will effectively be illegal to sell in Europe. The French have aready banned them from Paris due to the problems they cause for pedestrians, traffic and parking.


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    As far as i know the 111R model is not being sold in the US, on the 190 model is available.
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    The model powered by the 190bhp Toyota engine is called the 111R.


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    So you wan to slow down more quickly than normal in this certain situation, so you apply more pressure than normal. Without ABS there is a chance of your brakes locking up and you looseing control
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    With a propery-designed braking system, this chance is reduced nearly to nil under any but extrapordinary situations. I've driven cars without ABS - in fact, I specifically tested the braking ability of a TVR Tuscan I had custody of for a week. I took it on a wet, empty road and stomped on the brake pedals at 45mph as hard as I could in order to try to lock up the wheels - and nearly put myself through the windshield. Any car that can go from 100mph to a standing stop in a shade over four seconds has nothing to apologize for in the braking department.

    The problem with ABS isn't the theory. I like the theory myself. On paper, it is an excellent idea. In practice it encourages auto-makers to be lazy and irresponsible in their designs of both chassis and braking systems. They say "There's no point to our taking the time to design a car that brakes well, we're just going to slap ABS on it"


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    Why would someone develope something that hurts the braking distance of your car, say it helps although it obveously doesnt, then companies put that system on their car for a marketing sceme?
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    Why would marketing people lie? It is what they do for a living.

    How can you tell when a marketing person is lying? Their lips move.


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    Yes thats exactly why the Z06 is able to beat a 911turbo, 360 modena, any MB in its price range, M3 and M5, XKR, XJR, ELise and Eprit around a track.
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    Hahahah, that's a joke, right?





     
  11. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

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    Well ive proved him wrong numerous times
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    Keep dreaming...
     
  12. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    No, Ive talked to someone that knows him. The person gave me some fino from his mags and what not. He is completely full of it and he will never pick up the unfo so you are just wasting time.
     
  13. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    very interesting discussion. i have learned more on the zr1 today.
    well the zr1 is a collectible now and i think it must be appreciated for what it is.It is a nice corvette with a very exclusive engine

    regards

    426hemistage8
     
  14. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    very interesting discussion. i have learned more on the zr1 today.
    well the zr1 is a collectible now and i think it must be appreciated for what it is.It is a nice corvette with a very exclusive engine

    regards

    426hemistage8
     
  15. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    very interesting discussion. i have learned more on the zr1 today.
    well the zr1 is a collectible now and i think it must be appreciated for what it is.It is a nice corvette with a very exclusive engine

    regards

    426hemistage8
     
  16. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    No, from what ive read its the same aluminum chassis, just like i said before striped down. If youve seen interior pictures of the C5R youll notice that its identical to the production car(striped down ofcourse).
     
  17. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    Nobles are british cars because the were designed in britian, and same with other cars, if an american car is built in europe, its still american, being an american design.
    Honda is a japanese company, and they were first made in japan, like the Corvette has always been made in kentucky, no where else.
     
  18. #143 DragStrip, Jul 1, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    Whats wrong with the Cadillac Escalade, the BMW X-5, Porsche Cayenne?

    The Navigator is simply a luxury SUV, but unlike luxury cars it can actually tow, and haul things.

    How are lighter cars safer? Dont give me the crap where the safest car is X pounds and the unsafest car is Y pounds, that has to do with design, not weight. Most lightweight material is more fragile than heavier material.

    As far as SUVs not being safe the BMW X5 gets a front impact rating of 5 stars and a side of 4 stars. The Escalade gets 4 front, and side resaults were not shown, the Tahoe gets 4 front, the Durango gets 4 front, the Escape gets 5 front, 5 side, the Expedition gets 5 front, the Explorer gets 5 front, 5 side. I think ive proven my point.

    If companies are getting 3400lbs car to a dead stop from 60mph in 97ft(Viper) from just "slapping on ABS and being lazy" then continue being lazy. A properly designed ABS car will out brake a properly designed non-ABS car.

    Autocar themselves says that the F1 would've been better had it been equipped with ABS:
    [​IMG]]http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6826/McLarenBrakes.jpg[/img][/url]
    he Porsche 911 GT1 stopped a massive 8.6 meters quicker. Despite carrying 37 kgs more. It even stopped quicker than the Caterham, despite weighing 2.6 times more than the Caterham. The GT1 is proof positive of the effect of a finely honed ABS system on cars that weigh about as much as the McLaren F1 and Saleen S7.
    Also notice the Bugatti EB110 (with ABS) stopping as quickly as the Tuscan S, despite weighing 1.4 times as much as the TVR.

    How many articles do i have to show you for you to realize the Z06 will beat an M3 and a 911turbo?
    Z06]http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=56&page_number=1]Z06 vs 911Turbo [/url]
    We already know that the Z06 out accelerates, and out brakes the M3, lets look at the handling. "(from the driver of the M3)Through a long fast right-hander I expected to see it(the Z06) fall back, but not only did it stay put, it went past down the following straight" quoted straight from EVO magazine. And the M5 is damn near 4000lbs, so thats all i have to say about that.
    You your self said that you saw a Elise only keeping up with a Z06 on the track. The 2000 Esprit is only about 100lbs lighter than the Z06, but the Z06 still out accelerates, brakes, and pulls better skidpad and slalom numbers. Both jaguars are heavier, and have slower braking times, accleration times, and worst handling numbers.
     
  19. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    This is what ive picked up from just the first 7 pages of this topic. And I skiped around some too.

    "(the Viper)It has the performance characteristics of a truck engine. It sounds like a truck engine. It was build from a design for a truck engine, in other words, it IS a truck engine."

    Proved you wrong there, has higher, brouder power band and torque curve, and redlines much higher than a truck engine.

    "A sports-car, it isn't. The Viper has always been too heavy to be a proper sports car"
    BTW i forgot to mention that you putting word in Carol Shelbys mouth about a sports car having to weigh a certain amount. The concept Cobra that Shelby made weighs 3200lbs, and he still calls it a sports car.

    "That's right, the Viper is too heavy to be considered a proper sports car. It is a "muscle car". The handling is far from brilliant as well. But then that's not surprising, no American car has ever been renowned for its handling - except perhaps compared to other American cars."
    Thats just plain out stupid, being numerous magazines do nothign but praise the Vipers handling.

    "BTW, the reason the Corvette offers band-aid fixes to bad design like traction-control and active-handling and ABS is because it has to."
    If you look under the specs of the NSX you will notice under the "saftey" categoy that traction control is listed there, like i said before, its for saftey. If the Corvette had a saftey category, im sure it would be there.

    "Only in comparison to other Detroit engines and then not even that. Ford makes better engines than Chevy anyway."
    That is just plain out a joke. DOHC are heavier and physically bigger than pushrod engines. Thats all im going to say.

    "he LS6, while Chevy may be very proud of it, isn't anything special when you look at what the rest of the world is doing and don't merely focus on Detroit."
    Whats the rest of the world making? Heavy, large engines with small displacement and high compression ratios, wow.

    "Like most apologists for American cars, you confuse grip with handling. Handling isn't about grip, it is about how the car behaves when the grip gives out."
    Grip show how much the car is capable of handling, without grip there is no handling.

    "The only handling the Corvette is known for is terrible handling."
    Although, like ive shown you before, it outhandles every car in its class (911turbo, m3 ect.)

    "No, these "band-aid" fixes are there to cover up shoddy engineering"
    Again saftey.


    "Have you ever driven an Elise? I have and I can tell you from personal experience that it takes more than a panic swerve to unsettle one. Plus, even if you did lose the rear end, the brilliant steering response (another thing that American companies don't seem to know a lot about) makes it easy to rein the thing in."
    Funny under the Car and Driver article of the Elise they said that it was too hard to make the Elise spin out, you just have to provoke it enough.

    "Also, Porsche's turbocharged flat-sixes are more efficient that the LS6 because they are turbocharged."
    Haha thats just funny.

    "Compared to something like a Trans Am, the Corvette handles well. Compared to something like even a BMW sedan, it handles like crap."
    Although, like ive showed you the Z06 handles just as well if not better than the M3.

    " That's the whole point of turbo-charging an engine - to make it more efficient without increasing size or weight significantly. "
    Just another funny remark.

    "Of course, because it has a lot more power. That's always been the appeal of the Corvette - "brute force and ignorance". It is crap at going around corners and braking but good at coming out of the corners and going in a straight line because you can just nail the throttle and hang on so long as the steering wheel is pointed straight ahead at the time."
    Ive commented enough on the Vette.

    "Look at the difference between the cars in the slalom. Admittedly this isn't the best test because the Corvette can compensate for some of its handling/balance sins with big grip from massive tires."
    ALthough the Z06 runs 70mph in the slalom, beating most cars.

    "No, the Z06 doesn't outhandle the NSX, not even close. I'll grant you that there may be a few automotive journalists out there dumb enough to think otherwise and actually write down their opinions, but that doesn't make them true."
    It has no problem beating it around a track, and the Z06 has better slalom, and skidpad numbers.

    "Handling is nothing to do with grip"
    Haha another funny one.

    "The key word here is "enough". ANY car will spin out "if provoked enough" and all the electronic wizardry in the world won't change this."
    You act like electronics have never been used in cars before...
    Anyway proved you wrong again, the Z06 would not spin out with the Active handling on.

    "In a straight line and around simple corners maybe. But on a real track, the 911 will eat the Corvette's lunch."
    See other articles ive posted


    "No, a "muscle car" needs the following attributes:

    1. An American badge. No one else makes muscle-cars
    2. A V-8 engine.
    3. Extensive use of low-tech components for easy/cheap service.

    Basically, they are crude, American GTs with a budget price tag."
    No according to every one who knows anything about muscle cars, they have solid rear axles, 4 seats, and are made to be inexpensive perfomers.









     
  20. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

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    No, from what ive read its the same aluminum chassis, just like i said before striped down. If youve seen interior pictures of the C5R youll notice that its identical to the production car
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    What does this have to do with the fact that the car was developed by Pratt & Miller from nearly a blank sheet of paper and ended up half-a-ton lighter than the production C5?

    Like I said, you don't lose that much weight by switching out the body panels and stripping out the interior.
     
  21. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

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    Nobles are british cars because the were designed in britian, and same with other cars, if an american car is built in europe, its still american, being an american design.
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    But you are contradicting yourself. If where a car is built is what matters, then the Noble is a South African car.

    The Lamborghini Murcielago was designed by a Belgian (Luc Donkerwolke) and built by a German company (VAG) and uses many components pinched from the Audi parts bin but it is still an Italian car, right?

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    Honda is a japanese company, and they were first made in japan
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    So what? Volvo is a Swedish company and they first built their cars in Sweden, but then the company sold its car division to Ford and Volvos are now manufactured in the US by American workers employed by an American car company. Is it still a Swedish car?

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    like the Corvette has always been made in kentucky, no where else.
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    Again, so what? GM is based in Detroit and nowhere else. Where they build their factories is irrelevant.
     
  22. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

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    Whats wrong with the Cadillac Escalade, the BMW X-5, Porsche Cayenne?
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    That's too long a list. Quicker to list what's right about them: damned little.


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    How are lighter cars safer? Dont give me the crap where the safest car is X pounds and the unsafest car is Y pounds, that has to do with design, not weight. Most lightweight material is more fragile than heavier material.
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    The chief enemy of the car's driver is weight. Weight is bad for acceleration, braking, traction, handling, etc... Basically everything that has to do with keeping a car safely and securely doing what it is supposed to do, in other words, staying on the road and going where it is pointed.

    Plus, when something unexpected/bad does happen (i.e. an accident) weight is an even bigger enemy. Lighter cars stop more easily and they do less damage to their surroundings (i.e. other cars, the passengers in them and any pedestrians or bystanders unlucky enough to be on the scene).

    Worse, when the weight is up high, like in the moronic SUV, the negative effects with regard to both driving normally as well as surviving accidents is multiplied. Look at all the roll-over accidents that occured in Ford Explorers. How many Ford Mustang owners were killed in roll-over accidents?


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    As far as SUVs not being safe the BMW X5 gets a front impact rating of 5 stars and a side of 4 stars. The Escalade gets 4 front, and side resaults were not shown, the Tahoe gets 4 front, the Durango gets 4 front, the Escape gets 5 front, 5 side, the Expedition gets 5 front, the Explorer gets 5 front, 5 side. I think ive proven my point.
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    You've proved nothing. They're all modern cars, they have no excuse not to all score 5 out of 5. What you don't see in this solo crash tests is what happens to other cars. Picture for a moment someone not wealthy (or stupid) enough to buy an Escalade who is driving a Mazda Miata and gets T-boned by the moron in the Escalade. How safe do you think the Mazda driver will think the Cadillac is?


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    If companies are getting 3400lbs car to a dead stop from 60mph in 97ft(Viper) from just "slapping on ABS and being lazy" then continue being lazy. A properly designed ABS car will out brake a properly designed non-ABS car.
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    No, they won't, as independent road tests confirm.



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    Autocar themselves says that the F1 would've been better had it been equipped with ABS
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    Well, actually, if you read that passage, they sort of didn't. Like the quote "We don't quibble with the McLaren's ultimate stopping power".

    Autocar's editorial policy is to loudly advocate modern gagetry and they usually heap scorn on cars that lack things like ABS, Traction-Control, airbags, etc... when they review cars even though their real-word testing shows that the same cars they condemn for lacking so-called "safety features" actually perform better than those loaded to the gunnels with gagetry.

    Meanwhile, people who know what they're talking about (e.g. professional drivers like Tiff Needell and Derek Bell) have nothing but praise for the F1's brakes.




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    he Porsche 911 GT1 stopped a massive 8.6 meters quicker. Despite carrying 37 kgs more. It even stopped quicker than the Caterham, despite weighing 2.6 times more than the Caterham. The GT1 is proof positive of the effect of a finely honed ABS system on cars that weigh about as much as the McLaren F1 and Saleen S7.
    Also notice the Bugatti EB110 (with ABS) stopping as quickly as the Tuscan S, despite weighing 1.4 times as much as the TVR.
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    Sorry, I didn't see where you posted the original information...


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    How many articles do i have to show you for you to realize the Z06 will beat an M3 and a 911turbo?
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    Of course it will beat these cars (assuming you're talking about a basic 911). You might, just as sensibly, ask if you can break an egg by hitting it with a hammer. The limited-edition, top-of-the-line Corvette Z06 has a lot more power than those two cars. That extra power makes up for what it lacks in finesse. The fact that someone felt it had to be matched up against a basic 911 and M3 is proof positive (if any was needed) of the low expectations people have for the car.


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    And the M5 is damn near 4000lbs
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    Yes, the M5 is way too heavy. We agree on that at least.


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    You your self said that you saw a Elise only keeping up with a Z06 on the track.
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    Not bad for a car with less than 200bhp.


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    The 2000 Esprit is only about 100lbs lighter than the Z06, but the Z06 still out accelerates, brakes, and pulls better skidpad and slalom numbers.
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    Of course a Z06 out-accelerates a Lotus Esprit, it has lots more power in spite of the extra weight. Also, skid-pad and slalom numbers are meaningless when you're talking about real-world handling as those states are only good for measuring a car's grip under specific conditions. This has nothing to do with handling. How many people drive on skidpads and slaloms on their way to work?

    The idea that a Corvette - ANY Corvette out-handles a contemporary Lotus is simply absurd. Lotus cars are now and have always been famous for their handling. Sometimes they weren't known for much of anything else. God knows the Europa wasn't exactly nice to look at, easy to get into, comfortable, reliable, easy to service or anything else that you'd want in a car. But by God it could go around corners like nothing in its day.

    Like I said, Lotus cars have always been famous for their handling. Chevys, umm... haven't.





     
  23. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

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    [the Viper Engine] has higher, brouder power band and torque curve, and redlines much higher than a truck engine.
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    What truck engine are you using for comparison?

    That doesn't change the fact that it was orginally designed as a truck engine, still sounds like one and has the performance characterstics of one (i.e. Loads of low-down torque and not much grunt north of 6000rpm)

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    numerous magazines do nothign but praise the Vipers handling.
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    Compared to what?


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    If you look under the specs of the NSX you will notice under the "saftey" categoy that traction control is listed there,
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    Yeah, the Japanese like their gagets too... Look at the Nissan Skyline. More toys than a Christmas tree in an orphanage.


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    DOHC are heavier and physically bigger than pushrod engines.
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    Not necessarily. Some of them are if you want to compare one manufacturer's engine to another, but it isn't necessarily true that pushrod engines must always be smaller than an OHC engine - especially if you compare them by output.


    ---
    Grip show how much the car is capable of handling, without grip there is no handling.
    ---

    You obviously don't understand what handling is about.


    ---
    it [The Corvette] outhandles every car in its class (911turbo, m3 ect.)
    ---

    Those cars aren't in its class - except maybe in price.


    ---
    Funny under the Car and Driver article of the Elise they said that it was too hard to make the Elise spin out, you just have to provoke it enough.
    ---

    All cars will spin out of sufficiently provoked - even ones loaded down with TLAs


    ---
    "Also, Porsche's turbocharged flat-sixes are more efficient that the LS6 because they are turbocharged."
    Haha thats just funny.
    ---

    Show me where I said that.


    ---
    Although, like ive showed you the Z06 handles just as well if not better than the M3.
    ---

    No, you've shown that the Z06 is faster which would be obvious even to the most dense because of the extra power the Z06 has.



    ---
    ALthough the Z06 runs 70mph in the slalom, beating most cars.
    ---

    Slalom tests serve little purpose except to give people who don't know what they're talking about something to bolster their ill-informed arguments.



    ---
    It [Corvette Z06] has no problem beating it [Honda NSX] around a track, and the Z06 has better slalom, and skidpad numbers.
    ---

    Don't you think the extra ~120bhp has something to do with the Corvette's victory on a track? Now, take the NSX to a tuner and have them pump the engine up to an output matching the Corvette and watch the NSX eat the Z06's lunch.

    And spare me the drivel about slaloms and skid-pads, it is getting tedious.


    ---
    the Z06 would not spin out with the Active handling on.
    ---

    Absolute bullshit. Anyone who tells you this is an idiot. ALL cars will spin out if provoked and that will continue to be true until autopilots are fitted.


    ---
    "In a straight line and around simple corners maybe. But on a real track, the 911 will eat the Corvette's lunch."
    See other articles ive posted
    ---

    Yeah, a bottom-of-the-line 911 maybe. Since the Z06 is Chevy's best effort, shouldn't it be compared to the best efforts of other companies? How about a 911 GT2?


    ---
    "No, a "muscle car" needs the following attributes:

    1. An American badge. No one else makes muscle-cars
    2. A V-8 engine.
    3. Extensive use of low-tech components for easy/cheap service.

    Basically, they are crude, American GTs with a budget price tag."
    No according to every one who knows anything about muscle cars, they have solid rear axles, 4 seats, and are made to be inexpensive perfomers.
    ---

    Considering I got the attributes I listed off a web site by and for muscle-car enthusiasts, I'd say I'm in the right.




    Jeez, if this is the best you can do, maybe you better keep it to yourself. ;->
     
  24. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    Sure, a blank sheet of paper with a frame, engine, and suspension.

    Striping down the car doesnt take that much weight off? How does a 3700lbs GTO become a 3000lbs drifting car without any body panel replacements, or major work to the cars design? The car was striped down, interior, engine bay, etc etc.
     
  25. Re: The engine made it so expensive.

    ---
    They sound more like sports car than I4s and 6 cylinder engines do.
    ---

    Then you haven't heard a proper I-6
     

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