This car is not the best...

Discussion in '2000 Hennessey Viper Venom 800TT' started by bmwm3gtr200, Mar 18, 2003.

  1. Re: This car is not the best...

    So are you saying that the numbers the factory posted for the 240 Turbo Intercooler are wrong? If you would like I can go scan in the factory broschure? It is an american broschure, so it does not have the 240 Turbo in it, but it does have teh 740 Turbo in it, which the 740 Turbo uses the same engine as the 240 Turbo.

    What kind of maintance are you talking about? One of the guys in Volvo's 500,000 mile club never did anything to his 240 other than change the oil, and filters, and anything that had to be replaced like belts and stuff like that. Other than that he was running an engine that had 0 maintance on it, he even said that if something broke on the car and it was still running a week later that he didn't get it fixed. So how is the engine's reliability based on maintance? I know that 500,000 miles is nothing close to 2,000,000 miles, but that is still what a Dodge may get if it is kept in perfect condition, then there is Volvo which will do that without any maintance.

    I have owned two myself. I had a 240 Wagon that was finally retired after the local repair shop said it was going to be more money than I wanted to spend to get it fixed. The kick ass thing about the car though is that when I got it back from the repair shop half the engine was sitting in my back seat, and the damn thing still ran, a little rough, but ran. The second Volvo I have owned I still have is a 240 sedan. I have the engine torn apart getting it ready for the shop to gt it bored, stroked, and a port and polish. I just am waiting for parts and shop time to open up. I am also starting to work with carbon fiber, and plan on using my Volvo 240 as teh test bed for many ideas. Plus I will be using it to test many of my engineering ideas. So befor eyou say I do not know what I am talking about, try and see what I know first.
     
  2. Re: This car is not the best...

    The 800 tt does not have great overall performance. That is what I have been trying to show, but you are just to stupid, or niave to see it. I can't post every little bit of information that shows why all of these cars are better, you must be able to see that they are based on the qualitie syou know them to have. So until you know what an Audi RS6 has for driving experience, or why the BMW e30 M3 has one hell of a driving experience, shut up, sit down, and ewad about those cars some, take some of them for test drives, get aquanted with those cars, because in the end there is nobody out there that knows anything about cars that will actually say the 800 tt is better than any of the cars on my list. Sometimes cars are just great even though they may not look it, and some times cars are crap even though though they may look great.

    The Stanley Steamer has a pretty good driving experience, no brakes! Im order to stop you have to put the car into reverse. So that is a pretty nice sounding experience, at least Jay Leno thinks it is one of his favorite cars to drive.

    You are still looking at performance as 0-60 and what not even though I have shown, and volvolysol's post also showed, that there is more to it than 0-60. 0-60 means jack shit on the track, and in every day driving. You do not do 0-60 to get on the freeway, yuo take a turn at 25, then go to 60, so realy 25-60 matters if you care. And all the car has to be able to do that massive feet in is the length of the on ramp.
     
  3. Re: This car is not the best...

    "The 800 tt does not have great overall performance. That is what I have been trying to show, but you are just to stupid, or niave to see it. I can't post every little bit of information that shows why all of these cars are better, you must be able to see that they are based on the qualitie syou know them to have. So until you know what an Audi RS6 has for driving experience, or why the BMW e30 M3 has one hell of a driving experience, shut up, sit down, and ewad about those cars some, take some of them for test drives, get aquanted with those cars, because in the end there is nobody out there that knows anything about cars that will actually say the 800 tt is better than any of the cars on my list. Sometimes cars are just great even though they may not look it, and some times cars are crap even though though they may look great.

    The Stanley Steamer has a pretty good driving experience, no brakes! Im order to stop you have to put the car into reverse. So that is a pretty nice sounding experience, at least Jay Leno thinks it is one of his favorite cars to drive.

    You are still looking at performance as 0-60 and what not even though I have shown, and volvolysol's post also showed, that there is more to it than 0-60. 0-60 means jack shit on the track, and in every day driving. You do not do 0-60 to get on the freeway, yuo take a turn at 25, then go to 60, so realy 25-60 matters if you care. And all the car has to be able to do that massive feet in is the length of the on ramp. "




    "The 800 tt does not have great overall performance."

    Now looking at the times i posted for all your cars, you're going to say a e30 m3 has better overall performance than a 800tt?

    Also, according to your standard, the cars must have a great driving experience, IMO, accelerating as fast as the 800tt does, that would count as "one hell of a driving experience"


    "You are still looking at performance as 0-60"

    Is that why i posted 0-100, 1/4, slalomn, skidpad, and 60-0 braking for the Mclaren, enzo and 800tt?



    "I can't post every little bit of information that shows why all of these cars are better"


    BMWM3GTR200: "but overall I will show that all of those cars are better than the 800 tt."


    BTW:

    I would like to know why you're so eager to prove the 800tt is the worst car on the face of the planet.

    And i'd like to know why you're only singling out the 800tt, when you posted that list

    And why you want to prove every car on your list is better

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  4. Re: This car is not the best...

    Okay let's take a look back at your original list, I have a little bit of nit picking to do.

    My Top Ten-
    1. McLaren F1
    2. Ferrari Enzo
    3. Pagani Zonda C12S
    4. BMW e30 M3
    5. Porsche GT2 996
    6. Volvo 240
    7. B-Engineering Edonis
    8. Audi RS6 EuroSpec Wagon
    9. Stanley Steamer
    10. Ford Model T
    Not in that order.


    Now, just so no one gets to thinking you're biased, hold true to your statement that EVERYTHING matters.

    Stanley Steamer:

    Stereo system - whoops, the steamer doesn't have one
    Air conditioning -nope
    brakes - negative
    Any performance category - Steamer's in the dust
    handling - High speed Chicane in a Steamer? I'll pass
    ride comfort - Showing up to work daily in a Steamer? Once again, pass
    reliability - Somehow I don't it would hold up of even a week of daily driving
    Safety - They've advanced safety gear a huge way in the last 100 years...


    Most of these will apply to the Ford Model T. Really, the only things these cars have going for them is innovation, and I sure hope you're going to weight that so heavily that it can single handedly declare one car to be better than another.

    You seem to think reliability is very important, so what is the Enzo doing here? You seem to think driving experience is a huge factor, so I don't see the Volvo's place here. You're going to have to argue every point on every car, instead of what's in your favor.


     
  5. Re: This car is not the best...

    Yeah, great so a car from 1904 doesn't meat today's standards, so what. At the time the Stanley Steamer was one of the greatest cars, and is one of the most wanted cars by collectors to this day. It was very reliable for it's day, not that innovative actually, had some of the best luguary, and so forth. The Model T also set many standards, mainly the cost, very cheap compared to the rest. It was also very innovative, and if it was not for the Model T what we know as cars more than likely would be nowhere near what they are today.

    I already said that I would argue every point on every car if you realy wanted me to, and I have already said that the 800 tt will more than likely win on some of these points, but in the end the other cars will show that they are the best overall. Also, are you saying that the Enzo does not have good reliability? If you are you are jumping to conclusions. The car has not been around long enough to know about it's reliability. What is wrong with the Volvo's driving experience? Different people have different tastes, and the Volvo seems to have a pretty good experience from what I have felt, and what it is, the world's fastest wagon, in it's day.

    Once again we have another person talking about performance, and not knowing what it realy is. Look up the damn word in the dictionary, you will see that there is more to it then just 0-60 and that stupid shit that realy doesn't mean anything unless you are comparing some supercars. If the fastest car is the best car, then according to this website, it is wrong, the Mercedes W125 is the best car.

    Read the first page of this thread, and you will find my favorite cars list. You will see that my top ten list is not my favorite. I have also already said that my top ten list could have different cars on it, but the cars on my list are all better than the 800 tt, at least in my opinion which is based on what the car is, what it does, and things like that, those are all parts of performance aswell. I also did not put a lot of time in to the list, just thought of some cars that are examples of the best, or near the best, for their class of car.

    If you would like, I will go and spend a week coming up with a top 20 list of the best cars ever based on my standards. I will tell you this, there are cars on that list that would not meet my top 20 standards if I were to sit down and realy make a true top 20 list of what I felt were the best cars of all time. The Pagani wouldn't be there. the Edonis wouldn't be there, the Enzo might be there, The Audi may be there, the rest probably would be there.

    So why do you guys just go and learn about these cars on your own for a week. I mean realy go and find out there history, what they have to offer, why they were made, what people say about them, and do not go and find one damn statement that says the car is crap either, find many that say that the car is crap, if you can find any. Read more than just American magazines, read European magazines. Find some books on the history of cars at the damn library and read those. Gain an appreciation for engineering, it is a lot harder than you think, plus a better engineered car is usually the better car. Learn that there is more to being the best than being the fastest. I will post again in a week, and if you do not have some damn good arguements on some of those, then I win. By the way there is at least one car on my list that the 800 tt could beat if you were to actually argue about things other than how fast the damn thing is.
     
  6. Re: This car is not the best...

    "Yeah, great so a car from 1904 doesn't meat today's standards, so what. At the time the Stanley Steamer was one of the greatest cars, and is one of the most wanted cars by collectors to this day. It was very reliable for it's day, not that innovative actually, had some of the best luguary, and so forth. The Model T also set many standards, mainly the cost, very cheap compared to the rest. It was also very innovative, and if it was not for the Model T what we know as cars more than likely would be nowhere near what they are today"

    And don't know about you, but the irony is nearly blinding from this point of view. So what you're basically saying is you plan to compare each car in your list to the 800TT, but yet compare them on different scales where and when you see fit. That's not how a comparison works, sorry to tell you. Age would be regarded as a developement limitation, and guess what else is a limitation... You guessed it! Price. Seeing how we're taking into account all development limitations, it would appear that the 800tt is now a better car than both the Enzo and the Mclaren. A nicely equiped 800TT costs about 1/3 what the Enzo does, and about 1/4 what the Mclaren does. Please tell me you see the hypocrisy of including age as a factor but not price.

    Also, when you started this forum, you said you would prove each car on the list is BETTER, and not better FOR THEIR TIME. You can include advancement in the auto industry if you'd like, but that doesn't mean you can ignore every other category simply because it's an old car. Remember, you said "There are things like comfort, reliability, the stereo syatem, anything that has to perform a task on the car should be considered" but now you've moved to "Yeah, great so a car from 1904 doesn't meat today's standards". Wasn't that the whole idea? To prove the 800tt was substandard when compared to the cars in your list. How you can you do so when the cars aren't graded on the same standards?

    "I already said that I would argue every point on every car if you realy wanted me to"

    That's funny, you just dismissed about 8 of such points in your last paragraph on the basis of "The Steamer's too old". You've said that you would compare every car, spec for spec against the 800tt many times, yet you never seem to come through on that promise, and so far we've been left with hypocritical comparisons with whatever you didn't like dismissed without another thought. Spare us another one like and get right to the "every point on every car" comparison, if you would.

    "What is wrong with the Volvo's driving experience? Different people have different tastes"

    Now stop back peddling and wait. Wasn't it you who was trying to prove earlier that the Mclaren had a better driving experience than the Viper, but now you've done a complete 180 and switched to "Different people have different tastes"? How can anyone take you serious if you can't take a single opinion on something, flip flopping when it suits you? You're going to have to do a little better than that, I'm not that ignorant.

    "Once again we have another person talking about performance, and not knowing what it realy is. Look up the damn word in the dictionary, you will see that there is more to it then just 0-60 and that stupid shit that realy doesn't mean anything unless you are comparing some supercars"

    What kind of asinine assumption is that? I say "performance", so you assume "he doesn't know what he's talking about"? WTF? I think we're on the level on what performance is - track ability. Not top speed, not 0-60, as those things are nearly irrelavent. But then again, that in-gear acceleration stat you've posted more than once is irrelavent as well, more so than 0-60 even. When's the last time a race car started in third gear? Only time I can think of is when one of the Corvettes had problems with the gearing and was left stuck in third gear at Daytona this year, and was left to finish the 20 some laps to go in third gear (although he managed get up to forth gear eventually). How often do you see that happening? Not very often that's for damn sure.


    "Gain an appreciation for engineering, it is a lot harder than you think"

    I think I have an idea of how hard engineering is, and I would consider myself to appreciate engineering, as I plan to enroll at the UofM in engineering as soon as I can afford it.

    "argue about things other than how fast the damn thing is."

    Once again, the 800tt is a PERFORMANCE car, its goal, if you haven't realized by now, is to go fast. If it is faster than whatever it is compared to then it is, by its own standards, BETTER. Your earlier quote would lead me to assume you at least appreciate engineering, so I ask you this: "If a car does what it is intended to do better than whatever it is compared to, is it not better in its own right?" How can you say an economy car is better than a sports car? You can't, simple as that.

    I'm not going to bother looking up the history of these cars, because it's much too obvious you're going to throw away any objective comparison in favor of some bullshit subjective comparison with categories weighted however you see fit. If you'd like to prove me wrong, bring forward that point for point comparison we've been waiting on for so long. I'm just dying to see what that turns out like.


     
  7. Re: This car is not the best...

    What do you know then?

    You said your self that your volvo broschure is american and does not have the 240 Turbo in it so therefore you're only assuming that 740/760 Turbo intercooler uses the same engine as the 240 Turbo.

    Maybe the Volvos shipped the USA are more powerful, but the Volvo 240 Turbo sold here in Sweden had 155hp.

    The figures I posted are from volvocars.se and from my own knowledge from owning those volvos.
     
  8. Re: This car is not the best...

    Badge: Volvo <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/wink.gif"></A>
    (not that "I drive a Volvo" will impress anyone....)
    Cost: Volvo
    Mileage: Volvo (wild guess, the B23 is probably not that efficient)

    from a practical POV the Volvo is a better car than the Viper. Unless of course, you need/want that performance, and most people don't give a shit, do they? The 240 have more than adequat performance for everyday use. I sort of disagree with you that excellent performance is necessary, that really depends on the person.
    Most people want a car that is problem-free and can bring them from point A to point B safely. Volvo 240 did that maybe better than any other car in history.
     
  9. Re: This car is not the best...

    how dumb do you have to make americans look...?(yes im american)
     
  10. Re: This car is not the best...

    Yeah, the Volvo 240 were one of the best...that's for sure.
     
  11. Re: This car is not the best...

    are u blind. this car is brilliant
     
  12. Re: This car is not the best...

    No! I happen to have very good eye sight. Thanks for worrying though.
     
  13. Re: This car is not the best...

    I finally figured it out.........this thread makes no sence.

    Lets' take the top ten list for example, it was posted to show that those cars were better than the 800tt. Now some of those cars are (bmw thinks all of them are better though)

    Now with that list this would basically be a 11 car comparison.

    But Different cars offer different abilities, and cars are compared when those abilities are similar. Take ALL the car magazines for example. They compare sports cars to sports cars, economy cars to economy cars, sedans with other sedans and so on...

    They don't compare a porsche 996 to a volvo 240, and say the porsche is better because it offers better performance, but the 240 is better because it offers more reliability. That would make no sence. But that's what is happening here.

    You can't compare cars and say that each one of those cars is better than the other for completely different reasons.

    For example, BMWM3GTR200 says the bmw e 30 is better than the 800 b/c it's said to be one of the best handling cars.

    Then the volvo 240 is better because it offers more reliability, and a mclaren is better b/c it offers better Overall performance.

    But the volvo doesn't offer the same performanc as a mclaren, the mclaren didn't advance the auto industry like the Model T, and the model T doesn't offer the handling the BMW E 30 does.

    Each of those 10 cars were built for different reasons (most of them)

    But in a comparison, you compare cars because they have something in common, and that's what car magazines do.

    Each car is in it's own catagory, the 800tt is in a performance car catagory, so you compare it to other sports cars IMO. <A BORDER="0" HREF="http://www.supercars.net/emoticons.html"><IMG BORDER="0" SRC="http://speed.supercars.net/cboardhtml/emoticons/smile.gif"></A>
     
  14. Re: This car is not the best...

    Good post. That is very close to how I see it. I never relay put it in those words, but I was kind of tring to show also that there is a lot to being the best car in the way of comparing the best in one area like luxury, and a sports car. This normally is not done, but when one makes a claim to a car as being the best car, you must also compare it to cars that do not have fast 0-60 numbers. The performance offered by luxury cars is amazing, in the area of luxury performing. If you were to rate a luxury car on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being a Rolls Royce like car, then rate sports cars on a scale of 1-10 with ten being a McLaren F1. If the luxury car came up as a 8, then a sports car with 8 would give similar performance. With that way of comparing, you can compare cars from different markets. It is more complex then that, but that is the general thinking behind it.
     
  15. Re: This car is not the best...

    ive been thinking about it for about a week now that this thread is just getting people mad at each other. I think its quite entertaining. But if you want to post a thread, dont jump into it ackting like you know everything. when several of the other viper fans on the site proved bmw wrong about a lot of stuff, bmw had to run to the racecar version of the f1 to get the performance numbers down. I think if you look at the viper and the f1 or any other car, you will always find a problem with a car. has anybody ever seen a perfect car. no way. i dont think the perfect car will ever be made. the faster you want your car to go the more money you will have to pay. the better looks you want the more money you have to pay. everyone is sitting here, including myself arguing about cars and saying stuff about being the best. you know what. the best people are the ones fighting for our country halfway across the world. how many of you would be over there fighting for your country. would you give up a car to fight for freedom? my grandfather was in ww2 and he died about 5 years ago. he got shot in the leg and got to come home to his free country. the "free" country he earned. today we have jobs in america that my grandfather would not have been proud of to kill for. you can go to vegas and get a job stripping for perverts or whatever you want to do. this isnt the couuntry our men died for. im to blame for this as well, but all of us are arguing about cars on this site for nothing. if i could be over helping my brothers fight for freedom, i would be there.
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  16. Re: This car is not the best...

    True.

    For example, a new mustang cobra 2003 does a 12.8 1/4, and a new mercedes sedan amg e55 at 469hp, can do 1/4 in 12.7

    But you wouldn't compare the two. You'd keep comparing the mercedes to other lux sedans and the mustang to other sports cars.


    Now, i don't think anyone (including myself) has said the 800tt is the best car in the world. Bluey's sig. did say "800tt is the best car on supercars.net" though. But look at how supercars.net is set up. Cars are on 1-40# list rated on fastest topspeed or 0-60 time. So considering the site is about Supercars and cars are rated on some aspects of performance, you Could say "the 800tt is One Of the best performing cars in the world"


    "With that way of comparing, you can compare cars from different markets. "


    True, like you've tried to compare 10 very different cars to a 800tt.

    But if you were to compare cars from different markets you'd still look at all of those cars aspects.

    For example, you say a volvo 240 is better than the 800 b/c it offers more reliability, the model T is better b/c it advanced the auto industy, but in all aspects the volvo doesn't offer the performance of an 800tt, and the Model T wouldn't offer the performance, or the Better comfort an 800tt offered (like a/c, heating, or power everything)

    Yes, you can compare cars from different markets but you'd still have to look at the cars overall.
    With that in mind, i really don't think that overall a stanely steamer or Model T is better than a 800TT.

    The cars in the 10 list all offer the best for thier class, but in a comparison, you (and ALL magazines) compare cars in the same catagory, making a good comparison.
     
  17. Re: This car is not the best...

    There are other types of supercars than just cars that are extremely fast. The true meaning of the word "supercar" is any car that offers super performance in any area. So a Rolls Royce realy is a supercar.

    I think you missed my point somewhat. I was not saying that a Rolls Royce offers similar numbers for accelerationg, but rather it's level of luxury is the same as a McLaren's level of speed and acceleration. It is one way that you can compare cars in two different caragories with a reduced amount of difficulty.

    I am rather tired of arguing my points on all of these cars. I am also wondering what viper1700 is talking about? He seems to have some odd posts, and what was shown wrong of mine? The only time I can see that my numbers were shown wrong was on the Viper Racecar, and that was my mistake not reading about the car first. If viper1700 feels that I was prejusice, wrong. I will explain, just after I quit posting for a bit in this thread, someone said that I was weighting the catagories in favor of the cars I was arguing for. I did not do this. I believe he was talkng about price, reliability, and other aspects. He talked about how some things mattered in some comparisons, and not in others. I do not know why he feels that, but he and many may feel because I talked about speed with some cars, and not others that I was changing my priorities. I did not, I never put any weight on performance numbers. I have stated many times that 0-60 and numbers like that meen very little to me. If a car can go from 0-60 in 2 sec., freat for the car that is hard, but unless it is a racecar it will never see those numbers on a regular street. When comparing two cars for the sportiness, it changes. Those numbers now come into play because that is what matters in that comparison. When comparing two cars to see which one is the better car overall, performance numbers meen very little, all the car has to be able to do is post some performance numbers that are respectable. I also he may be confused with the way I was judging the age handicap versus price. Price is not a limiting factor. If you want to make a car that costs a certain price, you can. If Doge wanted tehy could make the viper a lot better of a car, and charge half a million dollars for it. A car manufacture can not however change the technology available to them. They can not be expected to for see that there will be thousands of advancements, and while some advancements may have been possible for them to incorpurate into the design of there cars, they did not know of the andvancements.
     
  18. Re: This car is not the best...

    "If Dodge wanted they could make the viper a lot better of a car"

    They could, in other catagories, but dodge made it as a performance car, and the viper does that job very well.


    But the point i'm trying to make about that top 10 list is that some of those cars are in different classes.

    When you do a car comparison, you (like the mags. have always done) take cars that have something in common, like performance, or lux.

    But to take 10 different cars and argue that each of them is better than another car (in this case the 800tt) using different reasons for each one, doesn't really make it a comparison,b/c you're really not comparing anything the cars have in common.
    For example, the 800tt and a model T, stanely steamer, audi sedan, or volvo 240, those 4 cars really don't have much in common with the 800tt, example, they don't have the kind of performance the 800tt has.

    I mean, you wouldn't take a porsche 911 and volvo 240, and compare them, and make the argument the 911 is better than the volvo, b/c it offers better performance, Nor would you say the volvo is better b/c it's more realiable than a sports car (porsche 911)

    IMO, you should compare cars in thier classes. You would take a truck and a sports car and say "the truck is better, it can tow more"

    So, to take some of those cars on that 10 list, and say they're better than the 800tt because of different reasons for each car, isn't really a comparison.

    The 800tt is a performance car (or supercar considering it's on this site) And should be compared with other performer cars, IMO.

    (to back up that opinion, go look at ANY CAR MAGAZINE, they compare sedans to sedans, sports cars to sports cars, lux cars to lux cars, and so on.)

    I'll leave this post at that.

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  19. Re: This car is not the best...

    Correction in paragraph 7 of that post, that starts out "IMO.

    would should be *wouldn't (take a truck and a sports car.....)

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  20. Re: This car is not the best...

    Questions to BmwM3gtr200:

    You started this thread, right?

    The topic says "this car is not the best..." refering to the Hennessey 800TT I presume, so do you think that there is one car that is "The Best"? and if that's the case then, best car for whom?

    You know that someone might think that a Hennessey 800TT would be the best car for him/her, so that would make it the best car for that particular person, right?
     
  21. Re: This car is not the best...

    About the question

    It would make it the best car for them, but it wouldn't make it the best car ever. I mean, someone could own a 911 and think they have the best car in the world, but would that opinion make it the best car in the world? NO

    This thread is about (to BMW) proving the 800tt isn't the best car in the world (even though no one has said the 800tt is the best) and i agree it isn't the best car overall, but it is one of, if not the Best performing car in the world.

    I agree with what you said, because the 800tt isn't the best car in the world, Then BMWm3GTR200, what is the best car in the world?

     
  22. Re: This car is not the best...

    At this point I don't think BMW quite knows what he's comparing. He seems to think things like stereos, comfort and performance matter in some cars and not others. I would be perfectly happy to leave it at "There is no best car, and it is stupid to claim one car is better than another, because a term like that is subjective, meant to be interpreted however you want."

    He could have claimed there were cars that are objectively better, but he lost that option when he kept trying to deny the importance of performance.
     
  23. Re: This car is not the best...

    Yes Khari! You're on point as always! More karma to you.
     
  24. Re: This car is not the best...

    Agreed.
     
  25. Re: This car is not the best...

    I am perfectly happy to leave it at that also. I do not see how one car can be called the best ever. That is one of the reasons when dumbasses like Khari claim the 800 tt to be the best I start threads like this one. If you do not think he made that claim, read his signature it says or said, the 800 tt is the best car on this site, something like that. Other people like viper1426 have implied that the 800 tt is the best. Other people have implied that the 800 tt is the best car aswell, and if you think that implying a car is the best is not the same as saying it is the best you are wrong. All you do when you imply that you think a car is the best, or anything for that fact, is look like a chicken for not giving your opinion because you think it is wrong. There are times however that implying is prudent, but when making a claim that a car is the best, implying that it is the best is down right chicken.

    Now I do know what I am arguing, no I am not throwing in double standards, and if you read all of my posts, or at least the ones that do not have to repeat the same damn things over and over because we have retards on this site that do not get it threw their head that there is more to a car then 0-60 times you would see that I have included all aspects of a car in comparisons when possible. I did not discuss the luxury aspects of the McLaren and 800 tt though because they were not made to be luxury cars, but rather sports cars.

    I think you may see what I am trying to say now a little better. When someone makes a claim that a car is the best, it must be the best overall performer, and there is more to the performance of a car then 0-60. Luxury is a category of performance, and yes even stereos can be included in the discussion. Why? Because at the time many of these cars were made stereos were common place, and expected to be on a car. You do have companies that do not put in stereos however in an attempt to save weight. There are also cars on my list that were made before stereos was even around, so how can we expect them to have one? There are also many other parts of performance then just the two mentioned, there are areas like saftey, reliability, and so forth. Also, there are things out side of performance that can make one car better then another car. Things like how it advanced the auto industry are important, and a million and one other aspects.
     

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