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Discussion in '1994 Dauer 962 Le Mans' started by granturismo1, Jan 7, 2006.
The vyron! it can do more stuf and is faster!
Actually, the Veyron is in production and with an electronically limited top speed of 407.5 kph (253.2 mph - since that's the highest speed the test drives were confident with)is the fastest production car ever. Not only that, the active aerodynamics (and maybe even the weight) make the car pretty poised and stable at those speeds (stability being relative at this point - meaning while it feels more firm and planted than a McLaren F1 at 240 mph, it's still a bit edgy).
Ths of course isn't a knock against the Dauer though since that car itself is a pretty good achivement in terms fo engineering and performance (seeing as how many people tried adn failed to create roadgoing 962s).
Oh, if anyone's interested in wher I got the specs for the Veyron, they're from the Top Gear article by James May.
So since you state the veyron is "in production" where are the 16/4's that bugatti has produced? Last I checked the ONLY 16/4's Bugatti owns at this moment in time are the 2 prototypes they built. For a car to be "in production" their would have to be more copies of it then just the 2 prototypes, which may I add still have problems. I will continue to list the problems with the 16/4.
1. The awd system seems to fail quite often.
2. The transmission was not built to cope with the stress and power of a quad turbo w16, but was in fact brought from another earlier bugatti as a way to cut costs (which has proven relatively dangerous since the 16/4 has almost killed 4 of Bugatti's own personell) amazingly the faults which were found are the same faults which I am explaining here, which Bugatti STILL HAS NOT FIXED.
3. The bugatti HAS NOT gone faster then 200mph and it WILL NOT in its current figuration. Before attempting such a dangerous thing as a topspeed it would be wise if bugatti AT LEAST ATTEMPTED TO FIX THE PROBLEMS WITH THE TRANSMISSION, ENGINE, AWD SYSTEM AND SO ON.
4. Lastly but certainly the most important problem with bugatti is with bugatti themselves not with the 16/4, which I will explain - it seems as though Bugatti considers the 16/4 to be more valuable then that of the lives of their own personell (who have almost died, and gotten hurt, because bugatti wanted to test the car WHILE FULLY KNOWING THAT THE PROBLEMS WITH THE CAR CAN HURT AND POSSIBLY KILL SOMEONE) or of the people who may decide to buy one IF IT IS EVER PRODUCED. Hmm let's see 175mph on a low degree bank turn the awd system failed, the car spun out uncontrollably crashing into the rail. Does that in anyway sound safe to anyone on this forum? Personally if I wanted to pay millions for a piece of shit 16/4 I would at least require it to be safe and problem free (not spinning out uncontrollably because bugatti decided to be a tightass and not develop a transmission for the 16/4 but borrow one off of another less powerful bugatti) but that is just me.
Im going to assume 2 things from you're first paragraph which I quoted.
1. You drove the 16/4, but cant provide any proof as to this happening.
2. You read a article somewhere on the internet or in a magazine which someone wrote about driving the 16/4, yet in this article no pictures or videos of any kind whatsoever have been provided to show the ESTIMATED (fake) topspeed of the 16/4.
If either of those 2 options above are correct, you have done nothing more then further populate this forum with fanboy shit that has no truthful backing at all.
"Not only that, the active aerodynamics (and maybe even the weight) make the car pretty poised and stable at those speeds (stability being relative at this point - meaning while it feels more firm and planted than a McLaren F1 at 240 mph, it's still a bit edgy)."
Have you personally driven both the 16/4 and the Mclaren F1? I highly doubt you have as a multi billion dollar company isn't going to let some kid drive their million dollar prototype, it's also highly doubtful that you drove the Mclaren f1 because last time i checked Mclaren hasn't made the F1 for quite a few years, so you would have to go about finding a owner of a million dollar car and begging him or her to let some person they dont know drive it (which will never happen.) Therefore the above paragraph I have quoted is bullshit, you in no way shape or form have driven the mclaren f1 or the 16/4 veyron, thus you can not make such a comparison as you did above, and shouldn't have made the comparison in the 1st place.
"Ths of course isn't a knock against the Dauer though since that car itself is a pretty good achivement in terms fo engineering and performance (seeing as how many people tried adn failed to create roadgoing 962s)."
I'm sure with the many high performance cars that you have designed and built which were based off of road going vehicles turned lemans winners that you know a thing or 2 about this subject right? After I get done laughing at the paragraph which you typed, I will find some way to attach wings to my ass so I can fly.
The Dauer 962 IS and HAS been the fastest street legal production car since it was created in 1994. Their ISN'T a street legal production car ANYWHERE in the world which is faster then the 962, their HAS NEVER BEEN and their wont be for some time (at least not until the new version of the 962 comes out.)
"Oh, if anyone's interested in wher I got the specs for the Veyron, they're from the Top Gear article by James May."
Oh I am very, very interested so please post the specs here in this topic when you find some spare time. Im going to go a step further and assume that this article which you got from the "Top Gear article by James May." doesn't in anyway show proof of the 16/4 going faster then 200 mph (by proof I mean a video of the speedometer during the "imaginable" top speed run which everyone seems to know about and have seen, this video would also have to show a copy of the timestamp from the ehra lessien test track (might not be spelled right as it is late here and i am quite tired). If indeed this "Article" which you have found does not show any video or pictures of the above proof I have spoken of do not even bother posting it here or anywhere on this forum, as you will be just wasting bandwith so you can post fanboy shit.
What's with all the hostility? All I did was point something out based on what I've read, granted the closest I'll ever get to a Veyron would be the reviews I've read from Top Gear, Road and Track and EVO as well as that episode of Top Gear from series 7. Is it wrong to trust those sources?
"It is fair to say, however, that the Veyron was never going to struggle in a straight line, not with a thousand or more horses under rein. What was of at least as much interest to us was how this heifer behaved once we left the Autostrada and headed for the hills. And here another fundamental difference between it and the likes of the Ferrari Enzo and Porsche Carrera GT emerges. You may be disappointed to hear it but, by ultimate standards, the Veyron is not agile; no car of this weight ever could be. It lacks the interaction and feel of a lightweight road racer and feels much more like a feral Mercedes SLR. To be fair, it disguises its weight as much as a two-ton car ever could, but the simple truth is that if you're looking for a car that behaves as if it were born for the race track, you should buy yourself a racing car."
Sorry about the hostility it's just that after dealing with these 16/4 fanboy morons who worship the veyron but "can't" seem to find or provide any evidence on the topspeed, I have grown tired and no longer feel the need to respond nicely to innacurate comments about the 16/4. If you would be so kind as to look through the 16/4 veyron part of this forum you will see how on my first posts when I responded I appeared to respect everyone and their opinion, however after typing the same response to these people who worship the veyron and say it can do magical things like exceed 250mph BUT CAN'T PROVIDE ANY PROOF OF THIS EVER HAPPENING, I got tired of their bullshit false comments.
It's people like these damn 16/4 fanboys who beleive it has gone faster then 250 mph BUT CANT AND WONT PROVIDE ANY PROOF OF THIS EVER HAPPENING that mess up a forum because they love to post innacurate and false information, while knowing that if they weren't so damn lazy THEY COULD FIND OUT THE REAL INFORMATION, which would take less time to do then they have spent defending a overpriced piece of shit which they continue to post INNACURATE AND FALSE INFORMATION ABOUT.
If I wanted to become a mod on this forum (which I don't as it would be a headache having to deal with these fanboy morons) the first things I would do would be to lock every 16/4 veyron thread, make a new topic on all the 16/4 threads referring anyone who goes to them to a topic which I have typed which states the following in the biggest font possible -
UNTIL YOU FANBOYS PROVIDE THE REAL INFORMATION ON THE 16/4 VEYRON ALL THE THREADS WHICH HAVE TO DO WITH THE 16/4 VEYRON WILL BE LOCKED BY ME, IF YOU CHOOSE TO NOT POST THE REAL INFORMATION BUT INSTEAD YOU POST FALSE INFO, YOU'RE ACCOUNT WILL BE BANNED, AND YOU WILL BE BILLED FOR THE BANDWITH WHICH YOU HAVE CONSUMED BY POSTING INNACURATE UNTRUTHFUL FANBOY SHIT ON MY FORUM. YOU HAVE 2 CHOICES, EITHER POST THE REAL INFO OR DON'T POST ANY THING AT ALL, IF YOU DONT LIKE THAT YOU WILL BE IMMEDIATELY BANNED. HAVE A NICE DAY.
send an email to TÜV Süddeutschland about the Veyron. they'll give you official data if you request it. stop expecting people to drip-feed you information.
And you won't ever become a mod on this forum because you are chronically retarded. the problem with the Veyron forums is YOU.
Also, Caps Lock is between Shift, Tab and A...turn it off.
I dont expct anyone to "drip-feed" me information, if you spent less time being in love with yourself, and spent more time reading posts on this forum, you would see how a certain person decided to repeatedly remind me that such a thing as the topspeed of the 16/4 wasn't fake, he then decided to tell me he has proof, but he chose not to provide this proof. Therefore I asked him numerous times to post this proof he supposedly found which he never did. So as a response to you're sentence of "stop expecting people to drip-feed you information." not only is that complete bullshit but it has nothing to do whatsoever with what that person said he would do.
No I will NEVER become a mod on this forum because every now and then a person (ike you for example) who has never once posted on the subject at hand, decides he should hop into it, and that he suddenly knows mroe the everyone. Like I said before if i was to become a mod on this forum (which i do not want to) the first thing i would be to do is to lock certain threads which people who have no idea wtf they are talking about (again like you for example) post on.
I guess expecting someone to post proof after they said they would is a retarded thing to do huh? Funny how you were not involvd in any of these 2 threads yet all the sudden you chose to speak up. Keep in mind everyone that on a similar thread Bugatti4evr tried to grill me about what he did for the veyron, yet he never once and has never provided any top speed numbers or times, something I seem to remember asking people to do nmerous times.
I too can go through every one of your posts which you wee involved in and post random stupid shit, but I wont as i dont want to feel like im stalking someone. Oh that's right you havn't been involved in ANY of the Dauer posts until recently when you chose to share with me how you designed an oil pump for a overpowered piece of crap. You have too much time on you're hands hands Bugatti4evr, you should spend more time designing something for the veyron which actually helps it, instead of on here acting like a child.
"I dont expct anyone to "drip-feed" me information, if you spent less time being in love with yourself, and spent more time reading posts on this forum, you would see how a certain person decided to repeatedly remind me that such a thing as the topspeed of the 16/4 wasn't fake, he then decided to tell me he has proof, but he chose not to provide this proof. Therefore I asked him numerous times to post this proof he supposedly found which he never did."
ajzahn himself showed you the proof, and he's a bigger proponent of this car than you are. He's in charge of Dauer's website.
i've posted extensively on the subject at hand...
the reason i am spending time on this site a lot lately is because my workload is very easy...and there is a high proportion of people who post regularly on this site that share the same profession as me.
I would post times on this forum, like others have...but you wouldn't believe them. it has been proven in other forums concerning the Veyron that it achieved 407km/h at VAG proving grounds, officially timed by TUV...i am obligated to not divulge information about the car...thats what marketing people do.
The Veyron is currently in production...i cant design any more for it.
I never saw a proof (video) that the Dauer did 251 mph, but I just belive it. As I did whit the Veyron top speed. However I still think that the Dauer is a better car.
Ah, and the Veyron really is a production car. Just look at the color combos in the pictures. There is a lot in many different colors.
But i'll go whit the Dauer here.
The Dauer is definitely the better performer indeed.
But i'd still take the Veyron because its just much more suited for daily driving.
And i never saw any proof for the Dauer either.
what more "stuf" can it do than the dauer... they can both steer, accelerate, and brake!!!! but one is 1.6 mph faster than the other thats basically it. and their accelerations are just about even!!! and FYI the dauer is a much better performer!!!!
so wat if the veyron does 1.6 mph faster? tht doesnt matter shit, its a minor speed advantage, i mean how many tracks allow a car to reach its top speed....despite being 12 yrs old, im rootin for the dauer 962......it is 1000 #$%#in kg lighter and has excellent power-to-weight ratio and accelarates about the same as the veyron......plus there's the matter about the veyron's crappy stability......havin said all tht, its unfair to the veyron to compare with the 962....the 962 is a race car, the veyron a road car......but then again the 962 is 12 years older....so maybe its not tht unfair
This car. Almost the same top speed, but with 269hp less then a veyron. The acceleration to a veyron is 2.5 seconds. On this, 2.6 seconds. Thats almost no difference. This car is from 1994, 12 years older!
Veyron is a production car, i know. But this is MUCH older, remember that, so this is one of the best cars ever. ( The veyron too is one of the best cars ever too i know that, but this is better, if you think on the age of this cars.)
Everybody is talking about McLaren F1, why do they do that when they can talk about this car instead?
709 --- Dauer 962 Le Mans
538 �-- Bugatti 16/4 Veyron
the bhp/ton its by the short ton (2000 lbs) right?
The dauer is faster round a track,no doubt as its a race car.
The veyron is faster in a straight line,and with overall top speed.
The veyron is by far the easier of the 2 cars to drive,and the most comfortable,beacuse its so much more comfortable and easier to drive its performance figures arent that far in excess of the dauers.
12 years on and there's a production car thats incredibly comfortable and easy to drive that will out-accelerate and go faster in a straight line than a prototype race car.
Veyron = very very good,Dauer = very very good.
I dont see why there's all the hate.
The veyron did its claimed top speed on top gear,the dauer...havent seen a vid of this thing going at 251 to be honest,dont think it matters much really.
Since when does a car being older make it better?
I guess this car is better than a 962 then:
Hell, its 100 years older!!
the Dauer would smash the veyron on a curvy track.
this car would ass rape a Veyron on anything but a straight line.This is easily the better car.
This is by far the faster car around the track, that is a given. Yes, the Dauer is much older, and the bugatti is too heavy to take corners propely... But the puspose of these cars is not the same, the Dauer is a racecar, the Bugatti is a very expensive road car that can give it's lucky owner a hell of a good time as he/she goes off to the country for the weekend.
If Bugatti wanted to make a racecar, or something that would really compete against this in a track, it could simply shave off all the electrical shits ang gimmicks that provide with everyday comfort in the Veyron and work a bit more on the suspension. Having said that, I think that even if they did, this car would still be incredibly hard to beat on a track.
Whoa Whoa Whoa, people!? Let's not get ahead of ourselves! Why does this always have to be McLaren vs. Dauer vs. of all things the VEYRON? Can't you people see that they are very different machines with different purposes? I've done my research, and here's the breakdown:
BUGATTI VEYRON: This car should not even be compared to the other two because it is a luxury GT car, and not an all-out sports car. The "GT" designation does not refer to the performance of the vehicle (which is clearly in the same neighborhood as the others), but rather to the level of compromise between luxury and performance. Beautiful wood and aluminum dash trim and supple carpets are not features found on a balls-out sports car like the McLaren F1 or a racecar like the 962. Dauer's modifications include leather trim and a navigation system, but this is clearly not the same as a car that's been hand built with luxury in mind as an essential feature of the car. They've just added the interior upgrades to make the car more comfortable and less intimidating for everyday drivers. The Veyron's complex transmission, 4 wheel drive, boatload of electronics and amenities, and huge engine result in a curb weight of 3500+ pounds! It is by no means a "race car for the road," but rather a "road car for the road." The Veyron is for long-distance cruises accross Europe via the autobahn, not for track use. Yet its incredible engineering and modern technology enable it to achieve performance figure that 10 years ago were confined to stripped-down racing prototypes like the Dauer. THIS is what makes the Veyron an amazing car!
MCLAREN F1: This car is considered by many to be the ultimate supercar. Though it has been surpassed in raw performance since its creation about 13 years ago, this car continue's to be the most "special" supercar since the Ferrari 250 GTO. Gordon Murray's radical vision, fanatical obsession with saving weight, and exacting attention to detail have resulted in a supercar as perfectly designed as one could possibly be. Gold lines the engine bay not as a gaudy show of wealth, but because it is so effective at retaining the heat of the engine. The F1 is the ideal supercar. Perfect layout, perfect body (funtionally, though maybe not visually), the perfect engine, etc. It has been the benchmark against which all others have been measured for 13 years! Other cars may be faster (Dauer 962 LM), cheaper (Ultima GTR), newer (Caparo T1), or more practical (bugatti Veyron), but there will never be another car like the original McLaren F1.
DAUER 962LM: This car is a refurbished version of the world's most successful racing prototype, the Porsche 962. Jochen Dauer (founder of Dauer) obtained several 962 chassis and modified them for road use, renaming them "Dauer chassis 001," etc. He added only what was needed to get the cars licensed, plus a few interior amenities that he felt would make the car easier to sell (after all, leather was expected of a $1 million plus supercar). The beauty of this car is its simplicity. It is not a masterpiece of technology like the Veyron or a masterpiece of design like the F1, it's just a thinly-disguised race car! In my mind, THIS car is the best example of the overused cliche "racecar for the road." The McLaren F1 is a road car for the race track or even a road car for the road. It's been a successful racer, but first and foremost it's a road car. Gordon Murray set out to design the ideal road car, not the ideal race car. THAT is the essential difference between the Dauer and the McLaren.
So, which is best? If you like luxury, comfort, and refinement in a rocket-ship of a GT, choose the Veyron. If you want to experience the purest distillation of the road-racer with no frills, bells, or whistles to interfere with the driving experience, pick the Dauer. Finally, if you want to experience the ultimate icon of road-going supercars and the immaculate design of a genius's masterpiece, go for the F1. Either way, you wont be dissapointed.
Dauer did a bit more than that!
The Dauer Racing 962 LMs took part in Le Mans this year at the behest of Porsche. Originally meant to be a civilized street version of the most famous Group C sports car in history, the 962 Le Mans has completely new Kevlar bodywork and a totally bespoke interior compared to the standard racer. The 1994 Le Mans regulations published by the organizing ACO (Automobile Club de l´Ouest) allowed very low-volume street-legal sports cars to to race in GT1 or GT2; the Dauer racing 962 Le Mans was such a car and was thus eligible. It was sheer irony � and a loophole in the regulations that the French authorities tried to plug but could not � that allowed a fully fledged Group C car to be converted to a road car and then back to a race.
When Jochen Dauer first conceived his 962 road car three years earlier he had no idea that it would someday win Le Mans, but his name is no stranger to the Sarthe circuit. Dauer Racing is linked to a string of IMSA and German Interserie successes, and famous names like Hans-Joachim Stuck, Bob Wollek and John Andretti have driven for the teams run by Jochen Dauer. When the deathknell of the turbocharged Group C cars was sounded in 1991, Dauer began to explore the possibility of developing his own road-legal version of the car. One of his first stops was to contact stylist Achim Storz, who used to work for Porsche Design and penned the famous McLaren M26 F1 car of the 1970s. Latterly, Storz has designed concept cars for Audi, BMW, Citroen, VW and Nissan.
The first sketches showed a car much more rounded than the Group C racer and this became the logo for the project that appears on all Dauer´s literature and T-shirts. The shape was distinctive for its larger, more rounded windscreen than the race cars. This larger and longer `bubble´ gives a greater feel of space and the finished car is actually 7cm higher over the roll cage.
The next step was to transfer this 2D concept into 3D and industrial designer, Gert Hildebrand was brought in to make model from the drawing. In fact, the design team missed out on step which is normally to produce a 1:5 scale model and they went form drawings to a full-size mock up. This was not actually a problem except the mock up was built on a platform 50cm off the ground level. When we finally brought the car down to ground level, we discovered a lot of mistakes had been made� Klaus explained, purely because of having the car off the ground we looked at it.�
These were corrected and pattern work began in July 1991. This took a year, and then they began an intensive program of wind tunnel testing by Dutch race car designer Wiet Huidekoper, based in St. Neots, Cambridgeshire, to resolve aerodynamic and stability issues. With a shorter nose and the increased ground clearance needed for the road, the car was unbalanced and carried to much rear downforce. Work was thus directed to increasing downforce at the front. When all these issues were resolved it was found that while total downforce was now just 40% that of the Group C race cars, the drag coefficient had also dropped to a very good 0.31Cd. This very low drag figure was significant for the Dauers projected top speed, the target which was 400 km/h (nearly 250 mph) a very reasonable goal considering the speed potential of the much higher-drag race cars.
The interior is work of Reinald Mattes from Ludwigsburg. He came in and used 300kg of clay in the process of making a full sized mock up from which he could take moulds! He changed his mind twice during the design process, Klaus explained, but he did a very good job and managed to squeeze in the two full-size seats we wanted. When the final design was approved, polyester moulds were taken off the plaster, finished with body filler and then the final patterns were used for the production pieces which are made from carbon fibre. These patterns alone wound costing the equivalent of $125,000!
The engine is the Le Mans spec 2994cc watercooled flat six with DOHC per bank of cylinders and four-valves-per-cylinder. Twin KKK turbos are employed with charge-coolers on either side and the expensive stainless-steel exhaust system with four exit pipes has catalytic converters which help to meet EEC emission standards. Engine management which is Bosch Motronic 1.7 which helps tractability, emissions and, of course, output, which is 730bhp at 7600rpm with 517 lb ft of torque at 5000rpm. Drive is taken through a 5-speed all.synchro and (of course) a limited-slip differential.
A hydraulic-operated sinter metal clutch takes this power to the road via a five speed, all-synchronized gearbox and there is , of course, a limited slip differential in the axle. Suspension is by double wishbones in front and inverted wishbones at the rear with transverse links and radius rods. The dampers have concentric titanium springs and the anti-roll bars are adjustable. Spring and damper rates of the road car are considerably lower than the racing version. There is a ride-height control system to help the car negotiate speed bumps and garage ramps.
With a kerb weight of just 2340 pounds (Group C cars raced at less than a ton), the 962 Le Mans will rocket to 60mph in 2.6 secs., in first gear and reach double that speed in 7.2 sec from rest! Top speed is an ahem - rather remarkable 251,25mph!
Containing this sort of performance is hard on the brakes and these are 330mm diameter Brembo vented discs with 4-pot calipers. The road car gets specially made 6-spoke Speedline alloy wheels of 18 inches tall and 10 wide up front , 11 at the back, the racing version uses BBS wheels
In road form, the Dauer Racing 962 Le Mans made its public debut at the Frankfurt Show 1993 from which it went on to the motor show in Dubai at the end of November. �Although not involved in the project at all, unofficially Porsche had been very helpful in sourcing parts and advice for the project and, once the car was finished and on show, they became somewhat warmer to the idea,� Jochen Dauer explained. �We started the project in 1991 as a pure road car, although we always said it would be possible to race it in the projected GT class with F40s and Bugattis. We were not too much surprised when Porsche approached us in December 1993 to discuss a possible Le mans entry.�
Porsche had been planning to enter the 993 in turbocharged form at Le Mans, but lack of development time meant that it might not be that competetive in the GT2 category. Besides, GT2 was not as fine as an achievement as winning outright, and it had been some years since Porsche had claimed a Le Mans victory. The factory reasoned that, as the Dauer 962 was homologated as a road legal sports car, it was eligible to be turned into a GT1 Le Mans.
The Dauer is based on a race car, that's enough reason for me.