TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ THIS!

Discussion in '1988 Callaway Sledgehammer Corvette' started by rossWal, Aug 9, 2002.

  1. #126 rossWal, Feb 12, 2003
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    Gee AntiDomestic

    This long and thats the best you can come up with!

    I asked you a very simple question what are the advantages and disadvantages of DOHC VS SOHC and in the Vettes case OHV?

    Yet you show us all you know nothing!

    Let me give you an example of something about OHV, these engines have less moving parts and are generally lighter then DOHC engines of the same displacement. One reason why the Vette is actually lighter then the NSX(you know the one that has a small V6 engine).Do you know how heavy a DOHC 5.7 liter engine is?

    Once again, if the Vette is so low tech explain what SeansVette posted? Here it is again...

    http://www.sae.org/automag/bestcar/10.htm
    Best Engineered Car of the 20th Century
    1999 Chevrolet Corvette Convertible

    Once again what are the advantages and disadvantages? I know it, why can't you a big fan of DOHC! And just saying it has more valves doesn't say shit!

    And gsolinas

    In you're post the performance of the two cars is only 136.7 Z06 Vs 137.1 360, I don't consider that something that kills the Vette. Plus the Vette has already proven its abilty to beat a 360 on the race track, and do you even want to look at Lemans?

    And I don't think I've ever really talked about price, but yet import fans keep going on and on about engine displacement (even though they don't even relize why the displacement is high). In that case I will always bring in fuel efficency, and two cars that perform almost identical yet one car consumes almost half the amount of fuel, I think I would consider that car using technology more to its advantage.
     
  2. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    I don't remember indicating that either car killed the other. And price comes up all over the place...not to say it's you, but it does pop up a lot. As for racetracks, to be honest I've seen the races go both ways but for the most part...in direct comparisons the 360 has edged out the Z06. I'm sure there are examples where the opposite is true but I wouldn't bother making that argument, the Ferrari has come out on top too many times. As for Lemans, Ferrari has a very reputable record in Lemans and then stopped competing, now they are back and rebuilding but it is not as if Chevy dominates Lemans the way Ferrari dominates F1. Even if it did, one would theoretically cancel out the other. This discussion has to do with the road cars though...not the race cars.
     
  3. #128 Guibo, Feb 12, 2003
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    AntiDomestic:
    The McLaren F1 that set the world speed "record" was one of their prototypes, XP5. Let me know if you want to know what the "XP" stands for. In any case, the stock limiter of 7500 found on production-run F1's (note: XP5 is *pre*-production) was NOT observed for those runs. They bumped it out to 8300 rpm, 300 rpm's beyond the durability threshold of the crankshaft damper. If you owned a McLaren F1, and you brought it in for service, and they saw that you had bumped the limiter up to even 7600 rpm, what do you think would happen to your drivetrain warranty? That's right. Null and void. It's no longer stock, but *modified*. You can read it all here:

    http://www.mclaren.co.uk/mclaren/features/limiter.html


    All all that rubbish about American cars NEEDING large displacement is utter BS. They don't need it. They are filling the demand. That's what Americans WANT: cheap hp. There's nothing wrong with that. So your claim that the Viper needs 8.0 liters to compete with the 360 Modena is ludicrous. The Viper had 8.0 liters long before even the Ferrari F355 was released. And it was still enough to keep the Viper in front of the Modena in head to head acceleration tests.
     
  4. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    gsolinas:
    Doesn't that chart you put up show the Z06 beating the Mitsubishi in nearly all objective handling tests? Dear me. And that's only on the corners. Take a look at the Z06's exit speeds and speed at the end of the straight. Should give you an idea of the thrashing the Evo was getting on the overall circuit, had R&T wanted to do an overall track test. Goodness, even the 360 Modena and 996 Turbo are having a devil of a time keeping pace.
     
  5. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    “Shoulda Coulda“, Why don’t you instead look at the results in front of you? It came in 5th.

    “That's what Americans WANT: cheap hp.”
    Funny I see a lot of Ferrari’s models going to your neck of the woods Guibo, are you sure Americans want cheap hp?


    “The Viper had 8.0 liters long before even the Ferrari F355 was released.” You mean like when it was compared to the 348s in its earliest days.
     
  6. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    gsolinas,
    You don't get it do you? Yes the Euro/Japanese spec Lancer Evo is a fantastic car, especially considering the price. But do you REALLY think the Lancer would get faster lap times than the Z06 on any race track? No way, at least not on a paved surface. Read the specific catagories of that road test. It is NOT a scientific calculation to determine which would get faster lap times.

    Horsepower per liter doesn't mean sh1t.

    The design engineers at Ferrari are operating under HUGE budgets for their models. Is it not reasonable to compare cars of equal MSRP, or at least close?

    And yes, us Americans DO want bang for the buck. For you to suggest otherwise shows how ignorant you really are.
     
  7. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    The overall results were heavily weighted subjectively. Look at your chart again. You want to know why the Mitsubishi rates so highly? Take a look at its steering overall ratio and its turns, lock-to-lock, and then compare it against any car on the market today. About the only thing that comes close is a Mini Cooper S. Of course, you don't really want that kind of steering when you're going 170+ mph...

    Right, and I suppose the vast majority of Americans buy Ferraris? Haha. Your attempt to pigeonhole an entire country yet again ends in failure.

    In its earliest days, the Viper was more often compared to its main marketplace rival, the Corvette (and in particular, the ZR-1). NOT Ferraris. Get your history straight. In any case, the promise of an 8.0-liter V10 was in the works since '89, when the concept was released. The fact remains: the 8.0 liter V10 could not have been built to "compete with" Ferrari's Modena. It predated the Modena by about a decade. Are you going to refute this? Yes, or no?
     
  8. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    “do you REALLY think the Lancer would get faster lap times than the Z06 on any race track?”

    - never said that, but I remind you that the test in question wasn’t my brainchild, it was R&T, I just posted the results.

    “Ferrari are operating under HUGE budgets for their models”

    - an exotic car company’s per unit expenses are also far more than the average manufacturer building in mass.

    “And yes, us Americans DO want bang for the buck.”

    - and the rest of the world doesn’t? Fact remains the US has a huge market for exotics.

    “Right, and I suppose the vast majority of Americans buy Ferraris?”

    -enough with the putting words in my mouth routine, the US buys more exotics than most countries out there, go ahead and dispute it. Just go to dupontregistry.com and you’ll see how many are for sale…look again in a month and you’ll see how many sold.

    “ It predated the Modena by about a decade. Are you going to refute this? Yes, or no?”

    - gee that’s a killer point there guibo, takes a genius to figure out which one came first, but I never said that the Viper was built in 89 to take on the yet to be imagined Modena did I? Get your history straight, the Viper was compared to many cars upon conception, and Ferrari was there too. Point still remains when the SRT-10 and other more recent Vipers were made they were made to compete with the Modena, and earlier yet the 355s. Hey maybe that wasn’t the intention of Dodge but the magazines sure compared them time and time again.


     
  9. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    You will see that time and time again, the Viper is compared to Corvettes FAR more often than they are ever compared to Ferraris. If you think Dodge really wanted to compete with Ferrari, wouldn't you think they'd at least put it in the same price range (effectively doubling it)? Your contention that Dodge is aiming for Ferrari makes no sense. If you want to go against a sports car titan, you have to invest in titanic amounts of $$$ and R&D. The fact that the Viper is only half the price of the Ferrari should ring some bells in your head. You don't suppose Aston Martin is going after Porsche's 911 by pricing its new sports car at half the price of the 911 (or 2X's as much), do you?
    Yes, America does buy a lot of Ferraris. Maybe having a fairly decent level of per capita disposable income helps. But then, you might say that Ferraris are only as good today because one of the primary markets (America) has made it that way.
     
  10. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    Quote from gsolinas:
    "- never said that, but I remind you that the test in question wasn’t my brainchild, it was R&T, I just posted the results."

    And the results showed the Z06 is faster through the turns than the Mitsubishi (to speak nothing of the rest of the track).
     
  11. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    “You will see that time and time again, the Viper is compared to Corvettes FAR more often than they are ever compared to Ferraris.”

    - True but that doesn’t mean they aren’t compared to Ferraris a hell of a lot. You yourself have posted numerous comparisons in the past between them. Like I said, it may not be Dodge’s main intention but it happens and often too.

    “If you think Dodge really wanted to compete with Ferrari, wouldn't you think they'd at least put it in the same price range (effectively doubling it)?”

    - Here I disagree. One of Dodge’s selling points is its modest price tag. Doubling their price may in fact take them out of the game. Maybe! I’m not a marketing expert but that is a possible scenario.

    “But then, you might say that Ferraris are only as good today because one of the primary markets (America) has made it that way.”

    - Not likely. Keep in mind that though USA buys a lot of exotics, more are still sold in Europe. Look at the Enzo, roughly 100 of the 350 made were allowed to go to the USA, the remaining cars stayed in Europe (I think Asia got a handful but I’m not sure how many and one for sure went to Toronto) Europe is a bigger market place but then…how many countries does that include? As far as individual countries is concerned though, the one buying the majority of Exotics is still the USA though.

    “And the results showed the Z06 is faster through the turns than the Mitsubishi (to speak nothing of the rest of the track).”

    - Yet placed behind it overall none the less. Look it’s a mere observation. I’ll be honest I’d rather have the Vette based on the fact that I know of its other capabilities but in this particular test…it fell short. It’s one test, it doesn’t mean it’s not as good a car. Don’t take it so personally.
     
  12. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    gsolinas,
    The Viper was NOT built to compete with Ferrari. They were not focusing the Ferrari buyer. The Ford GT is a totally different story. That was originally built SPECIFICALLY to compete with Ferrari, and it dominated.

    Already Ford is publically referring to the GT as the Ferrari without the snob. It's claim to fame is "I can smoke your Ferrari and I didn't get ripped off"
     
  13. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    HAHAHA Dominated! Why cause it won some races in the 60’s when Ferrari was in financial trouble? I’m curious to see how long Ford fans will hold on to those “glory years”. Funny thing is Ferrari’s record in Lemans is still better than Ford’s. 9 victories are still more than 4 right? Besides, Ferrari destroys everyone in Formula 1...what’s that got to do with road legal sport cars? But I’ll need to be convinced that it will be smoking anything. So far the only numbers I’ve seen have been estimates and factory claims and the 0-60 is supposed to be in the low 4s while the 0-100 is expected to be in the 9s with a Œ mile of 12 something, and a top end time of 185mph or 298 kph. Those numbers have all been achieved by the 360, even the 575M had a 4.1 0-60. So how is it smoking Ferrari and how is the Ferrari driver being ripped off if they are in the same price range? This isn’t a challenge, I’m curious. If someone has test results by all means post them. I’m interested. I can’t help notice though that its taking a 5.6 ltr Supercharged V8 to keep up with a normally aspirated 3.6 ltr V8. Not that displacement is everything but being Supercharged I kind of expected a little more out of it.
     
  14. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    "R mile" was supposed to be 1/4 mile. Not sure how that happened.
     
  15. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    This is better than The Diablo VTTT, don't deny it, it's true. Although, it isn't to far off
     
  16. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    gsolinas:
    Doubling the price of the Viper might put them out of the game. IF they made no changes to the car. You don't think they'd sell the car at 2X's the price without improving it, do you? Dodge already has the styling down pretty well. Ditto the performance and build quality. That leaves about $80K retail left to do in the interior. Do I think they can do it? When you consider what custom shops can turn out for less than $20K, the answer is yes. Can America turn out an outstanding sports car, in every way as good as Ferrari, for $150K? Absolutely. Does that mean people will no longer flock to Ferrari's? Absolutely not. Different strokes for different folks, remember?
    But as it stands, the Viper needs to be *cheaper* (to definitively blow out the Z06 in all aspects), not *more* expensive.


    You're right, that's only one test result. Look at this month's R&T (or the one from last year, where they tested the Z06, NSX, and 996 at Laguna Seca). The point still stands, I'm addressing your comment: "read the R&T test result post, the Z06 should work on out handling the Mitsubishis before they set their sites on Ferrari". This statement sounds like the Mitsubishi (again, not your garden-variety Mitsubishi) would take the Z06 on a racetrack.

    Believe me, when/if I decide to make this discussion personal, you'll be the first to know.
     
  17. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    “Doubling the price of the Viper might put them out of the game. IF they made no changes to the car. You don't think they'd sell the car at 2X's the price without improving it, do you? Dodge already has the styling down pretty well. Ditto the performance and build quality. That leaves about $80K retail left to do in the interior.”

    - That all depends. Hand making the car alone would probably soak up a lot of that $80K. I’m sure improvements would be made but it might not be to the extent one would think. Not to mention that, part of the reason Ferraris cost so much is because they are considered rare. If Dodge were to produce fewer Vipers their value would jump immediately without even improving the car. If they improved or hand made the car while still producing as many as they do it could hurt them the way the XJ220 hurt Jaguar (too many were made...value dropped, ie. less profit or possible loss). Even though they were made according to order many cancelled the order and took the loss of deposit because production was taking to long. Now they sell for much less than they should. This is why I always say "price shouldn't carry as much weight as it does". Too many factors affect price, performance has little to do with it. Look instead at the cars themselves.
     
  18. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    What are you talking about? The Viper is already handmade. Why do you think Mercedes engineers toured the Viper and Prowler assembly plant, instead of taking a peek at AMG, when they went to get ideas about building the Maybach?
    In any case, how many Vipers do you think Dodge makes per year? More than Ferrari makes?
    But as has been said before, being handbuilt doesn't guarantee quality. It does, however, usually guarantee a higher cost of manufacture.

    LOL, just take a look at your R&T test result again. The Z06 lost by 3 TENTHS of a point. 3 tenths out of a possible 280 points! You won't see that narrow of a gap between any other cars in that comparo.
     
  19. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    “What are you talking about? The Viper is already handmade.”

    I understand the Viper is partially hand made as in hand assembled possibly. Ferrari's are 100% hand built however. Every aspect of the car is custom made by hand. Being hand built doesn't always ensure quality (I’ve heard a lot of high end Jaguar horror stories) but it adds prestige and it usually (not always) does add to the quality. So price naturally goes up.

    “In any case, how many Vipers do you think Dodge makes per year? More than Ferrari makes?”

    - Though I’m almost certain they do, it really doesn’t matter. They are all readily available to American consumers. Whereas with Ferrari’s (even if 350 are built in a year) only 30% on average will see American soil. That’s one of the reasons why the same brand new Ferrari will sell for more in the USA than in Europe.

    “LOL, just take a look at your R&T test result again. The Z06 lost by 3 TENTHS of a point. 3 tenths out of a possible 280 points! You won't see that narrow of a gap between any other cars in that comparo.”

    Be accurate. It lost 4th place by 3 TENTHS of a second. The Ferrari beat it by more than 12
     
  20. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    It was exactly 12.2 points now that I checked.
     
  21. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    You know damn well we what I'm talking about (Z06 vs Mitsubishi, remmeber?) In any case, you seriously think an Evo VII would slot itself in somewhere between a 360 and a Z06 on a full track? Not even. If we go by your overall R&T rating and apply that line of reasoning in our discussion here, you'd almost have to.

    Look, you said right here:
    "Not to mention that, part of the reason Ferraris cost so much is because they are considered rare."
    This implies that you have some kind of working knowledge as to how many Vipers are built per year. Well, do you? If not, how can you make the comparison?

    BTW, Ferrari doesn't hand build everything themselves. You think they form the body by aluminum alloy themselves? You think they mix the aluminum alloy material themselves from raw aluminum? Just like most car makers out there, they rely on *suppliers* for many of the components found in their cars. Maybe that's why the V12 Vanquish and 575MM transmissions are so similar? Ever heard of Ferrari brakes? I haven't, but I've heard of Brembos. Again, there's a component of the car not made by Ferrari. Guess what other cars uses Brembos? Oh yeah, the Viper. Porsche, on the other hand, are noted for their powerful (and patented) braking systems. Yet, there's a good chance the braking components themselves come from an outside supplier. Outside of TVR and a few other custom marques, there remains to this day almost ZERO manufacturers that build everything in-house.
     
  22. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    Are you infering that somehow Vipers are "more" hand made than Ferraris? I'm aware they use Brembos and the stereos inside aren't "Ferrari Stereos" but whatever aspect of the car is made by Ferrari won't be assembled on a conveyor belt by robots. Like certain aspects of the Viper.

    Again don't put words in my mouth. I never said the Evo would end up between a 360 and Z06 on a full track. I just posted the results of a test R&T conducted. If there are any further problems take it up with them.
     
  23. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    Whoa, whoa, whoa! Now who the hell said anything about the Viper being *more* hand made than Ferraris? Certainly not I. Seriously. You need to get a grip on what's being discussed here, and not some imaginary theories not ever brought forth nor even hinted at. Point still remains: the Viper is hand built. You won't see robotics anywhere on the assembly line. And your statement:
    "Ferrari's are 100% hand built however. Every aspect of the car is custom made by hand."
    is utter BS. That implies that not only are the sheetmetal pieces whittled into shape from raw slabs of aluminum, by human hands, but that humans also cut and form the supension components by hand. For the sake of Ferrari, I hope that is not true. Human hands simply cannot compare to a CNC milling or casting machine.

    Again, I ask you: how many Vipers are made in a year? Haven't got a bloody clue, now do you?

    When someone says Car A will outhandle Car B, doesn't that imply that Car A will go through twisty sections of racetrack (or any otherwise objective method of measuring handling) quicker than Car B? How does one "outhandle" another by posting slower times? Or are you talking about subjective ratings (wherein the R&T editors and guest driver Byran Herta rated the cars quite differently)? Somehow, when an F1 TV commentator says a Ferrari will outhandle an Arrows, you seem to be thinking that they're talking about subjective handling traits?
    No, I will take this up with you because you've so obviously skewed the results of that magazine test in our discussion here (ie, subjective rankings have almost *nothing* to do with whether Car A will "outhandle" Car B). I've no beef with R&T. Besides the fact that they measured only 2 out of a possible 6 or 7 cornering points, it was a pretty decent test of handling.

    Oh, dear. It's mid-February and I'm still nowhere *near* your estimated 12K posts. Hmmm, not only is your estimate off, maybe your "lunatic" comment is off as well. (No, couldn't be!)
     
  24. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    Ok man when you finish splitting hairs you’ll come to the realization that every aspect of the Ferrari made in Maranello is made by hand. Obviously parts ordered from elsewhere can have different manufacturing systems. That was never disputed. Fact remains Ferrari hand builds all it’s parts. When ordering from elsewhere they just go with top of the line good quality shit (like the brakes, tires and stereo equipment). I really don’t see why this is being discussed though. I’m not disagreeing with you. Good thing I need to get a grip on what’s being discussed though.

    Again the test wasn’t conducted by me. It wasn’t published by me. You yourself said it was a good test. What the hell is the problem then? The Evo really left a bitter taste in your mouth didn’t it?

    “Again, I ask you: how many Vipers are made in a year? Haven't got a bloody clue, now do you?”

    I don’t work for Dodge, I don’t know why I’m expected to know precisely how many Vipers are built in a year but since you insist. The years vary. There have been anywhere from 1500 produced in a year to 1800. This isn’t specifically GTS’ or RT-10s however. From what I understand that is the sum of all of Dodge’s production Vipers in a given year. How many were RT-10s and how many were GTS models (or ACRs depending on the year) I’m not sure. I’m not sure how many SRT-10s will be produced either. But there are well over 1000 produced in a year even nearing the 1800 mark. This is the part of the thread where you put your foot in your mouth for a while.

    If I hit 10k plus on these forums I wouldn’t be bringing too much attention to it there tough guy. It’s not something to be proud of.
     
  25. Re: TO EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY Diablo VTTT IS FASTER READ TH

    "don’t work for Dodge, I don’t know why I’m expected to know precisely how many Vipers are built in a year"

    Then why make any assumption that Ferraris are more rare? Hell, I don't work for BMW NA, but I can tell you how many Z8's were sold in the US last year. As part of being a *car enthusiast* (which you clearly are not), it helps to have some fvcking clue about production numbers before you spout off BS about one car being more rare than another, no?

    And how is my foot in my mouth? It took you more than 2 posts to finally come up with that figure (congrats! You know how to search the web. Although as an importer of exotic cars, it really shouldn't have been so hard for you to figure this out, eh?)
    But more importantly, that figure shows that Ferrari's are *not* more rare than Vipers. In 2001, Ferrari sold 4,289 cars (Ferrari marque only; not including Maserati). And if past trends are any indication (1998-2000), about 70% of sales are attributed to the V8 models. That means Ferraris (and particularly the 360 Modena) are not anymore rare than Vipers. Not by a long shot.

    In any case, a "Financial Times" interview with Luca Cordero di Montezemolo, published in April of 2002, stated:
    "A new €70m engine plant has just been completed. Inside, the latest robots and machine tools share the wide and airy facility with olive and lemon trees and little green lawns. 'Some people asked me what on earth I was doing planting trees inside a factory. I told them that life inside a factory should be like the outside world: light and green,' Mr Montezemolo says. The company is now about to build a new €45m paint shop."

    Excuse me? Did I just see the term "latest robots and machine tools"? What would a company that builds cars 100% by hand need with robots and machine tools? You still don't get it, do you? When people speak of "handbuilt" cars, such as Aston Martins, Ferraris, Vipers, and Bentleys, it's all relative. They are handbuilt compared to most production cars, but that does *not* mean they are 100% built by hand. I defy you to find one car maker that builds *everything* by hand. And I mean everything, down to the last nut and washer. You simply won't find it. And thus, your statement is false.

    Regarding the R&T article, it clearly shows the Z06 needs no work in order to outhandle the Evo VII. It already does. End of discussion.

    "If I hit 10k plus on these forums I wouldn’t be bringing too much attention to it there tough guy. It’s not something to be proud of."

    Nor is it anything to be ashamed of. Who said I'm either? Oh, that's right. *Your're* the one who likes to dwell on such things.

    Again, you've shown yourself to be the windup artist that you truly are. Haven't come up with a decent source for the modified Diablo performance figures, and you're certainly making little sense in this discussion of Vipers and Ferraris (what else is new?). This thread is done.
     

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