Re: I hate this car.

Discussion in '2000 Hennessey Viper Venom 800TT' started by hennesseyms, Aug 9, 2002.

  1. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from hennesseyms</i>
    <b>You're just mad that this is da best!</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Da best? Now that's a laugh!!! It's actually quite shameful how an 8 litre V10, needs TT's to get this kind of performance. Forget the TT's, the "cheat" tires used in achieving this unofficial 0-60 time is an even greater shame! Any car with this displacement and "cheat" tires can fork out this kind of performance. The Viper is a nice car, but it is far from being the best, let alone in the top 25 of all time supercars.<!-- Signature -->
     
  2. That's interesting, deuginthesky. I've always wondered what the official class requirements for LM were, but I never checked. I like that they limit the gas tank to 50 litres; all the gas-guzzlers will have to pit every ten laps to keep going.<!-- Signature -->
     
  3. Test the Venom 800 vs Veilside Supra , or vs all 800+hp Supras and Skylines , or vs a 288GTO Evoluzione , F50...We're all going to laugh a lot !!!
     
  4. You don't think that a Skyline with the same power would waste this Viper on the track? I would be surprised if this car could win against even a 600hp Skyline. Look at the Skyline Blitz and tell me that an 800TT would beat it around Nurburgring.<!-- Signature -->
     
  5. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>You don't think that a Skyline with the same power would waste this Viper on the track? I would be surprised if this car could win against even a 600hp Skyline. Look at the Skyline Blitz and tell me that an 800TT would beat it around Nurburgring.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    My post wasn't clear , my apologies.

    I wanted to say that the Veilside Supra , F50 , modded Skylines...will kick the Venom Viper if they compete.
     
  6. Ahhh...I see. I'd agree with everything but the Veilside Supra. That car, though it has plenty of power, doesn't seem to have the ability to lay it on the pavement. It does the 1/4mi in about 11sec. That's pretty piss poor for a 1000+hp car.<!-- Signature -->
     
  7. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>There is nothing worse than a Viper on a racetrack.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    'Cept maybe a 993 Turbo, Turbo S, Ferrari F355, NSX, Supra Turbo, 996, etc. All of which have been proven to be slower around a track than a non-ABS Viper. Hell, the Viper has even beaten the Z06 not once, but twice. Of course, the Z06 has beaten the 996 Turbo on two separate occasions (stock v. stock on a twisty road course), so we can't assume it's exactly a slouch.

    Speaking of Skylines, a modded Skyline went up against a mostly stock Viper in the One Lap of America races last year (all done on road courses). The Vipers finished 1-2. The Skyline's engine blew (it wasn't points leader at that point either) and the team had to finish in an S2000.
    The year before, a 650 RWHP Supra went up against that same Viper which won last year, and still couldn't get the job done.
    Skylines also got trashed by the 500-hp Zakspeed Viper in last year's 24 Hours of Nurburgring.

    Are Vipers really that bad? I mean, when was the last time a Supra or Skyline took class wins at Le Mans? FIA GT? The FFSA (French GT series)? 24 Hours of Daytona? 12 Hours of Sebring? 24 Hours of Spa (taking 1-4 last year)?

    LOL. "I hate this car." It's only a car. Why take it so personally?
     
  8. Well, jeez, most of the things you're saying can also apply to things like the Caterham 7, TVR's, etc. It just means these cars require more attention to drive to the limits; they're not some old Cadillac with supersoft comfy suspension, such that you could easily understeer to its low limits, one hand on the steering wheel, the other holding a cell phone to your head. Does that make any of these cars bad? Not really. I've got video of a guy losing it in his S2000 on a winding mountain road. Does that make the S2000 a bad handling car? There's a story of a guy with a brand new Modena at the nsxfiles website:

    "So I stopped by Martin's place. Martin used to work at a Ferrari dealership, and now has his own shop, kinda like how Larry used to work at an Acura dealership. I stopped by there, and he showed me this wrecked Ferrari 360 Spider. Apparently the story behind it is that some guy put down a deposit, waited a couple years, and then his Ferrari finally came in. He then picked it up at the dealer, and he had to be one hell of a happy person. Drove it home.....and promptly crashed it. Wiped out the entire passenger side, front and rear fenders, door, rim, etc."

    Also, at the same site, a story of a guy who crashes his brother's NSX on the way to the track. He loses it on a wet offramp (see pic below). NSX's are bad handling? Nope.


    Well, the Viper has ABS. And has had it for over a year. It is largely more refined than was the original intent of the Viper team, when headed by Bob Lutz and Tom Gale. Some might go so far as to say it's too refined and a little too costly because of it. What about the Porsche GT2? It doesn't have PSM. Does that make it less of an enthusiast car than a 996 Turbo?

    Besides, the Viper isn't nearly as unforgiving as you might think.

    "The Viper turned the quickest laps around the handling course at the Chrysler proving ground and was easiest to drive."
    --C&D, July '97 comparo w/993 Turbo S and NSX-T

    "And if numbers were not enough, Steve Millen proclaimed it (the Viper) super-handling and 'among the best balanced cars on the racetrack.'"
    --R&T, July '98 comparo w/996, F355, NSX, M Roadster, C5 Cabrio

    The F355 was deemed trickiest to control at the limit in that test as well as in MT's High Speed Gamble from '97, where it lost to the Viper on the road course. Doesn't make the Ferrari a bad handling car.
     
  9. In other words, why hold a view of a car based on some attitudes of those who support it, and a handful of lunatics who happen to be unable to control it?
     
  10. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>The problem with the Viper, so I hear and see, is that if you ever exceed its limits, you're screwed. There are no computer assist systems, no fancy AWD backup, and no ABS to help you correct your mistake. Experience helps, but even Michael Schumacher makes mistakes, so it would be nice to know you won't die if you cough while making a corner at 90% traction</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    You know, the cars with computer assist systems and fancy AWD backup have limits just as well. If you exceed them, youŽre in a ditch. Further, they are not as flexible as an experienced driver and canŽt handle turns as fast as pure mechanical link between the driver and the pavement. Barring a sophisticated ABS and traction control, computer systems in general just make the limit more fuzzy. They are well suited for everyday driving, where one can be caught by a surprise, but in road racing they just slow you down.
     
  11. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from hennesseyms</i>
    <b>75.1 mph slolom, you call that bad traction, bad handeling?</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    no, I call it good acceleration turning average speeds into exceptional speeds.<!-- Signature -->
     
  12. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Bearing</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>The problem with the Viper, so I hear and see, is that if you ever exceed its limits, you're screwed. There are no computer assist systems, no fancy AWD backup, and no ABS to help you correct your mistake. Experience helps, but even Michael Schumacher makes mistakes, so it would be nice to know you won't die if you cough while making a corner at 90% traction</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    You know, the cars with computer assist systems and fancy AWD backup have limits just as well. If you exceed them, youŽre in a ditch. Further, they are not as flexible as an experienced driver and canŽt handle turns as fast as pure mechanical link between the driver and the pavement. Barring a sophisticated ABS and traction control, computer systems in general just make the limit more fuzzy. They are well suited for everyday driving, where one can be caught by a surprise, but in road racing they just slow you down.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    The Computer assists extend the limit. When programmed correctly, they do absolutely nothing until the limit of the car is reached. Once you surpass that normal limit, the computers help you correct your mistakes. The performance of the car actually drops off when you use these assist mechanisms, so it is still better if you keep the car within its god-given limits. What's nice is that if you acidentally exceed those limits (say, hit a patch of sand you didn't see) you're not totally lost. A perfect driver has no use for these sophisticated systems, but no one is perfect. <!-- Signature -->
     
  13. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>Why does it exist? There is nothing beautiful about a Viper, and the Twin Turbos are just shameful. No one can actually confirm the performance of this car, but it gives all the ignorant fans of American muscle (not to imply that all American muscle fans are ignorant) something to brag about. "So your Skyline has the best handling package in the world and one of the most tunable engines in history...the 8L Viper Venom 800TT goes 0-60 in 2.4 seconds!" It's total bullshit, and anyone who knows about racing knows it. There is nothing worse than a Viper on a racetrack (other than those big, useless Ovals, but those aren't for real racing, they're for leisurely turning your wheel the same direction every few minutes). This is as much a kid's toy car as the Diablo, only without an impressive design, level of luxury, drivetrain, or engine. So what's it got? It has exactly one trick: going forward for 15 seconds faster than most other cars. Dodge has wasted a huge amount of poorly-machined steel and overused rubber building this car, so I hope for their sake that the '03 is at least decent.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    HaHa what an idiot!<!-- Signature -->
     
  14. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from AlreadyHaveSpeed</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>Why does it exist? There is nothing beautiful about a Viper, and the Twin Turbos are just shameful. No one can actually confirm the performance of this car, but it gives all the ignorant fans of American muscle (not to imply that all American muscle fans are ignorant) something to brag about. "So your Skyline has the best handling package in the world and one of the most tunable engines in history...the 8L Viper Venom 800TT goes 0-60 in 2.4 seconds!" It's total bullshit, and anyone who knows about racing knows it. There is nothing worse than a Viper on a racetrack (other than those big, useless Ovals, but those aren't for real racing, they're for leisurely turning your wheel the same direction every few minutes). This is as much a kid's toy car as the Diablo, only without an impressive design, level of luxury, drivetrain, or engine. So what's it got? It has exactly one trick: going forward for 15 seconds faster than most other cars. Dodge has wasted a huge amount of poorly-machined steel and overused rubber building this car, so I hope for their sake that the '03 is at least decent.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    HaHa what an idiot!</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    HaHa, way to read more than one post!<!-- Signature -->
     
  15. Lancia, I challenge you! Show me a better/faster car. One that could beat this on and off the track...take your time...oh that's right you can't.<!-- Signature -->
     
  16. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from hennesseyms</i>
    <b>Lancia, I challenge you! Show me a better/faster car. One that could beat this on and off the track...take your time...oh that's right you can't.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    I'll work on that. Meanwhile, I challenge you to come up with a post that's longer than one line and actually shows some knowledge and insight.<!-- Signature -->
     
  17. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from hennesseyms</i>
    <b>Lancia, I challenge you! Show me a better/faster car. One that could beat this on and off the track...take your time...oh that's right you can't.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    I'll work on that. Meanwhile, I challenge you to come up with a post that's longer than one line and actually shows some knowledge and insight.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    LOL.

    Very nice posts by the way, Lancia. Very informative.<!-- Signature -->
     
  18. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b><!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from hennesseyms</i>
    <b>Lancia, I challenge you! Show me a better/faster car. One that could beat this on and off the track...take your time...oh that's right you can't.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    I'll work on that. Meanwhile, I challenge you to come up with a post that's longer than one line and actually shows some knowledge and insight.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    hennesseyms is also making me sick.

    he has no argument , he's just a parrot :"hennessey is better hennessey is better"
     
  19. Thanks, guys. I'm surprised no one defended the Viper's suspension, a lot of people think the unequal a-arm suspension system is great because of its strength. Guibo?<!-- Signature -->
     
  20. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>Why does it exist? There is nothing beautiful about a Viper, and the Twin Turbos are just shameful. No one can actually confirm the performance of this car, but it gives all the ignorant fans of American muscle (not to imply that all American muscle fans are ignorant) something to brag about. "So your Skyline has the best handling package in the world and one of the most tunable engines in history...the 8L Viper Venom 800TT goes 0-60 in 2.4 seconds!" It's total bullshit, and anyone who knows about racing knows it. There is nothing worse than a Viper on a racetrack (other than those big, useless Ovals, but those aren't for real racing, they're for leisurely turning your wheel the same direction every few minutes). This is as much a kid's toy car as the Diablo, only without an impressive design, level of luxury, drivetrain, or engine. So what's it got? It has exactly one trick: going forward for 15 seconds faster than most other cars. Dodge has wasted a huge amount of poorly-machined steel and overused rubber building this car, so I hope for their sake that the '03 is at least decent.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    I agree with LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4. He has a point about the Viper, how Viper fans always brag about this huge 8-liter gas-guzzling V-10. The Viper isn't really ugly, but it hasn't gotten a makeover until now, after 10 years. Another thing is that this car is overpriced. You want a REAL twin turbo supercar that can actually handle and do well on the track, and has attractive styling, and 800 horsepower? AB-Flug S900 Supra. It has twin turbos, 800 horsepower, better handling, more attractive styling, and more drivable than a Viper. Still think its too slow for you? You've only spent $100,000 for all of that, which is a brand new Supra, and the $50,000 AB-Flug conversion, while the 800TT conversion costs a burdening $80,000, which brings the Hennessey Viper 800TT's total to $160,000. Concentrate, and find out what you're going to do with that leftover $60,000, if you don't think the AB-Flug is enough. Heck, go buy the Veilside Supra Limited, whose body kit alone costs $15,000, mainly shipping and handling (to and from Japan), and has over 1000 hp, and even after that, i'm positive you'll still have less than $160,000<!-- Signature -->
     
  21. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>The Computer assists extend the limit. When programmed correctly, they do absolutely nothing until the limit of the car is reached. Once you surpass that normal limit, the computers help you correct your mistakes. The performance of the car actually drops off when you use these assist mechanisms, so it is still better if you keep the car within its god-given limits. What's nice is that if you acidentally exceed those limits (say, hit a patch of sand you didn't see) you're not totally lost. A perfect driver has no use for these sophisticated systems, but no one is perfect. </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    No disagreement here. What I tried to imply, is that road racing is driving on the limit, regardless itŽs computer enhanced or not. But not only driving on computer enhanced limit is slower than the car would otherwise be capable of, itŽs fuzzier and just as easy to go out of it, if you confront additional surprises, like sand or oil, when already on that computer enhanced limit. This even if we assume the computer systems always work perfectly and predictably (which they donŽt - can you say Microsoft, ehm <IMG SRC="http://www.supercars.net/servlets/cMsg/html/emoticons/smile.gif">).

    As said, the computer assists that reduce understeer and oversteer are well suited for normal driving, but not for a track. Viper is intentionally made to not have such systems, like ie. Porsche GT2. Last, IŽd say itŽs regarded more difficult and more dangerous than most of other cars, because thanks to itŽs huge grip and power, youŽll probably be on a considerably high speed when you finally cross itŽs limit and hence in a very nasty situation. But the likes of Viper and GT2 are just not meant for everyday driving, there are kazillion times better and cheaper choices for that purpose.
     
  22. True. It doesn't have all those racing computers because it is street legal and wasn't fully intended for GT style racing or LeMans or anything of the sort. It's goal is the most preformance for the lowest price, and this company did a damn good job, you can't argue that (and win).<!-- Signature -->
     
  23. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from LanciaDeltaIntegraleS4</i>
    <b>Thanks, guys. I'm surprised no one defended the Viper's suspension, a lot of people think the unequal a-arm suspension system is great because of its strength. Guibo?</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->
    Whatever gets the job done.

    Who needs multi-link? The Viper was supposed to kill the Corvette. It was the anti-Corvette. The Viper team made it clear that pretty much whatever the Corvette had and stood for, the Viper would outdo and stand against. I think I recall Chrysler's then-CEO Bob Lutz saying the Corvette had strayed too far from its sporting roots, that it was too much of a boulevardier. Makes you wonder what he's up to, now that he's at GM...
    Unequal-length A arm suspension may not be cutting edge, but it's a step up from live axle and semi-trailing arm. The first-gen RX-7 had a live axle. The current BMW Z3 Coupe (and M Roadster and M Coupes) has semi-trailing arm. I've driven both and can say those cars handle <i>very</i> well.
     
  24. You mean DSC. That can be defeated, if you press the button long enough.
    Besides, who's talking about the 3 Series?
     
  25. I was talking about 3 series generally.

    That includes , Coupe , Z3 and Z3M
     

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