Re: DOMESTIC VS IMPORTS

Discussion in '2002 Mazda RX-7 Spirit R' started by sparetire, Aug 10, 2002.

  1. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from venomGTR</i>
    <b>seems this is a bit of a myth. i watched a australian GT race on tv just the other night, it was won by a lambo, a 360 modena and a couple of NSXs. It seems all the vipers could do was follow around at the back of the pack.
    I've heard alot of people (especially on the net) raving about how vipers are so great on the track and will kick car x but i've yet to see it. I've always been disappointed at actual races, theres the ocasionally viper win in a sports car race but if there is a lambo in the pack it steals the priveledge from the ferraris with moping the floor with vipers.
    it seems viper engines only make decent output because of their shear size, when talking specific power a 1984 ford escort engine has better figures.
    I drive a jap import with alot more torque than a viper and it didn't cost me a quarter of the price of a new viper, infact cheaper than alot of new cars.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    What japanese car do you drive with "Alot more torque" than a viper? You have got to be kidding me? And didnt the viper win ALMS 2 or 3 years ago? oh well, thats fine ***** about the viper not being able to hang with lambos and whatnot when it handles better than 99.9% of all other cars out there. "it was in the back of the pack with Lamborghinis and ferraris, it sucks." The #$%#ing car is in a race with lambos and ferrarris how does it suck?!?!?!?! and it could always be driver error as well. Put michael shumaker or Mario Andretti into one of the vipers and i guarantee you would have a different race.

    One of the main reasons that the viper's enging is so large is to produce torque, another is to try and smoothout the power band so that you have a consistant hill as opposed to jagged peaks and valleys as most turbo cars and many high hp low disp cars have. The thought process behind it is so that you can put the car into gear at any rpm and have massive amounts of available power.

    Oh yeah and just to reitterate myself, WHAT JAPANESE CAR DO YOU DRIVE WITH ALOT MORE TORQUE THAN THE VIPER? You lieing sack of shit. Name me one jap car with 490 tq.
     
  2. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from v0locity</i>
    <b>hey sparetire
    well i dunno if you see my point or not but it is that why have a big engine making X amount of power were as a small engine make the same amount and run with the big boys. thats my point you can have a good hp/l that is efficient and run with the big boys. </b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    Price.
    The Viper turns out More power cheaper than almost any other 70K car, and more than many more expensive cars, like the NSX. The NSX does not run 12's here in the states, where it is subject to the same rules as the Viper. On this even playing feild, the Viper is faster. Same in racing. Take all the emmisions off the Viper and see what it does if you are going to do it to the NSX.

    Also, as far as efficiency goes, larger displacement is quite good in the Viper and up areas. The 911 GT2 (3.6 horozontaly opposed engine) get 13mpg! And about the same power as the Viper, which has nearly the same milage. I am getting a 1st gen Eclipse or Talon (2 litre 4g63 motor), and when I put 660cc injectors to it to get the higher boost with out fuel cut, I don't expect my car to be efficient.

    You can't put Viper wheels and tires on the Supra with out losing performance. They will not fit in the first place. And the Supra, while powerfull as hell (the sequential turbo version anyway) it does not have the torque of the Viper to turn those monsters at normal RPMs. The turbo lag would hinder the 60 foot times unless launched really hard. The Supra's setup is already, within the limits of base price, perfect in terms of size.

    And my mistake when I said no point in comparing a i4 to a v8. I should have said that in terms of Hp/Litre. Its not fair to say that the I-4 is better in that respect than the V-8, because the 8 is bigger. A go kart engine is much more efficient than any I-4, but it is not better for a car to have. But it is not a clearcut superiority. The Mustang Cobra 02 gets about 65 HP/Litre, the non vtec Civic gets 69HP/Litre. Now I realize the price diffs and class diffs, but I think that is none the less impressive from Ford to match almost the HP/Litre out of a 1.6 litre engine with a 4.6 litre engine.

    You can compare them for sure on the strip or even at the stop light, but if you really do, I think you will find it is not a landslide victory either way in terms or performance per dollar. This is one of the best Imports here in the states in those terms. Tough to beat for the Low 30's it was when it sold here.
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  3. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from Drunken Tiger </i>
    <b>First of all i'd like to say that i love this car and is my favorite car...now...i hear all u domestic lovers saying american cars are a bang for the buck..but thats only cuz we live in america fools! In Germany I read a catalog and the mustang was over 30,000 bucks! (not euros) I admit that japananese cars are more expensive than american but when u buy them, ur paying for the reliability as well as performance of the car....American cars have a POOR history of quality and these days their quality isn't so hot either.....just my THREE cents......<IMG SRC="http://www.supercars.net/servlets/cMsg/html/emoticons/smile.gif"></b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->


    The Cobra is 30K here too. If you mean GT, then yeah, its a 5K increase or so. That does not totaly make the M3 or Skyline on par with American cars in terms of price.<!-- Signature -->
     
  4. Hey sparetire.....i said that ur paying for the REALIABILITY as well as the performance of the car u silly..<!-- Signature -->
     
  5. I'm not going to tell you that the Cobra is on par with a Honda in terms of reliablility, but when you are running a car hard on a regular basis, stuff breaks. Even on imports. I think if reliability is such a huge issue then maybe this is the wrong area to be in. Longevity is great, but it either hits you in the wallet or in the numbers. But Hell, this needs an overhaul every 75-85 thousand miles, the inherent strsin on the seals is tremendous. That number goes down with hard use too. And I still consider it one of the best bang for buck imports ever.<!-- Signature -->
     
  6. Man this shit needs to end ,the same thing is being said over and over.No one is gonna change anyones mind about who make the best performance (America Vs. imports).There are some die hard american car lovers,and some die hard import car lovers,and theres that special few(me)that appreciate each car for what it does,and accepts each car can't be perfect, and some are bigger have more power and are faster,but are nothing new technology,while others while having all types of tec,they don't make the same amount of power.And that is fine that we all have different opinions but damn,this discussion is going NO WHERE.Just whole senseless babble.

     
  7. <!-- QUOTE --><center><hr width="90%"></center><blockquote><i>Quote from v-tecnician</i>
    <b>i just thought i would add the point of posting 1/4 mile times should be regarded the same as hp/l because its inaccurate and it varies. Most 1/4 times are avergaes of a certain number of runs so that means the car is capable of faster times and slower times and even if they posted the fastest 1/4 mile for a car, people often forget that the driver drives the car so no matter how fast the car the driver has to be just as quick or a 12 second car could be a 14.</b></blockquote><center><hr width="90%"></center><!-- END QUOTE -->

    I disagree. A 1/4 time is one of the best measures of a cars acceleration ability. Most 1/4 times, if you find them in the right places, are pretty much at the limit of what the average driver can acheive with that car. Same with 0-60, and 60 foot times and trap speeds and lap times. Those numbers show what the car can do regardless of how it does it. And that is whats important to me when discussing performance of one car vs another. Like I said, if you race a NSX with 290+ Hp against a S2000 with 240 HP, the NSX wins. The S2000 is not a better performer, but it does have HP/Litre on the NSX. Thats one example of HP/Litre being almost totaly irrelevant.<!-- Signature -->
     
  8. hey sparetire
    but whats the point of making such a big engine to make such low numbers when you can have a small engine creating the same amount though? see the next gereration NSX is going to be V8 4.0 liters and its gonna have 450hp none turbo. the viper and the vette maybe be able to pull 1gs on the skidpad but lets take there wheels and put them on the skyline or the NSX or supra and any high performance cars out there and see what skidpad numbers will they get? and your saying that whats the point of comparing a i4 to a v8. so whats the point of calling jap cars ricers? and whats hte point of you v8 drivers racing them?
     
  9. #59 v0locity, Aug 10, 2002
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    ok now i have proof that the NSX can run 12's go to www.vtec.net they got videos of NSX type S zero and Type R running 12's the american version of hte NSX is a fuc.ked up version. and the person that stated that why compare a rotary to a V8 well why compare a inline 4 or 6 to a V8 or V10 or V12. the Rx7 is still a car that runs with 2 rotors only imagine if it had 10 rotors and a 8.0 liter. and if the 3 rotor can make around 550 hp already.
     
  10. and hey venomGTR your right about the skyline that only puts out 70% of its power from the engine it self. its been proven that the skyline will make 450hp tuned up like it was ment to be with the turbos of course. the only reason why it is 280hp only is cuz of japanese restrictions.
     
  11. hey sparetire
    well i dunno if you see my point or not but it is that why have a big engine making X amount of power were as a small engine make the same amount and run with the big boys. thats my point you can have a good hp/l that is efficient and run with the big boys.
     
  12. OH MY GOD NOT AGAIN! i have seen a MILLION of these type of threads, domestic vs "imports" (the skyline forum, for example, is FULL of them), and they're all the same! i'm not bashing either "imports" or domestics - the corvette z06 is a damn good car, and the skyline (though not the r35, which is butt ugly) is just AMAZING...i'm just saying, why can't certain people get OVER it?
     
  13. V0locity, one quick thing because i am tiring of arguing with your ignorant ass. We keep mentioning this strange foreign concept to you of torque, i know it doesnt appear much in the asian car vernacular but thats ok. Now here is the reason that the tires on the vette are not on the jap cars you mentioned. One torque, those cars do not have the torque to turn those tires and keep the same acceleration numbers that people want and expect. The tire thickness and width are set the way they are to maximize performance from the car's drivetrain output, specifically torque. Why is it that many diesel trucks use 4 rear tires and gas powered truck with the same hp use 2 rear tires? The diesel has more torque and needs more traction to get the towing and hauling ect. that the company wants from it. If you put the vette's tire setup on your rx7 (if you can get it to fit in the smaller wheel well) than your acceleration numbers will suffer dramatically due to the lack of torque available to push it, there is quite a difference from 375 ft lbs in the vette and 250 some in the rx7. ANd come to think of it, your handling might suffer as well, the car was designed with a certain tire width and size in mind and if you stray to farit may not help any whatsoever (ex, NHRA prostock dragsters, HUGE rear tires but couldnt turn to save their lives). Give the compayies that build these cars that you worship some credit, they know what they are doing more so than you do. If they could get that much better handling numbers by putting on 285 35 r18 rears and 245 45 r 17 fronts on the rx7 or any othe car, like they are on the vette, without giving up acceration, dont you think that they would do that? Come on man, use some logic, or have you been inhaling too much nitrous?
     
  14. First of all i'd like to say that i love this car and is my favorite car...now...i hear all u domestic lovers saying american cars are a bang for the buck..but thats only cuz we live in america fools! In Germany I read a catalog and the mustang was over 30,000 bucks! (not euros) I admit that japananese cars are more expensive than american but when u buy them, ur paying for the reliability as well as performance of the car....American cars have a POOR history of quality and these days their quality isn't so hot either.....just my THREE cents......<IMG SRC="http://www.supercars.net/servlets/cMsg/html/emoticons/smile.gif"><!-- Signature -->
     
  15. A car is unreliable if you use cheap parts and have poor designs. America is a money-hungry country and they'll do anything to save money. Using cheap parts and mass-producing is one way. The Japanese and Germans don't cut corners. They don't want their cars to be crap. Japan and Germany have complete different ethics in comparison to America. I guess the way of life models how people think, and therefore, how they build their cars. Alot of people don't hate American cars just because of prejudice. They hate them cause they know American cars suck. Besides, Americans shouldn't feel they should be the greatest in everything.
     
  16. As of right now American auto manufactures aren't making a whole lot of production performance cars, but so ar the Europeans and Japanese. Sure America has the Viper GTR, Corvette Z06 , and Mustang GT. And The Europeans Japanese have cars like the M3, Audi TT , Porsche 911 GT2, Ferrari 550 Maranello, Skyline GTR, NSX etc. But as of right know the imports cover a larger market. American auto manufactures are either catching up to or copying the import cars. NOT that one is better than the other, i like the old-school V8's , but i also like the sound of finely tuned and manufactured imports.
     
  17. Well i hate to see the word copying... but perhaps the american manufacturers borrow technology from the japanese and the heritage and testing/retesting and exactness of european styling but vise versa is true too i mean the automobile started in america so maybe they have the right to borrow from where ever... don't get me wrong im not american so i have no reason to back them but i will give props where props are due.
     
  18. good point but come on look at the srt-4 ugly as sin i mean good car but they should have changed the styling or created a whole new platform.
     
  19. the gt2 gets 22miles to the gallon sweet!
     
  20. v-tecnician, benz started the automobile, and he was european. not american.
     
  21. yes America invented mass production, wel Henry ford did, but he was american
     
  22. Man I just love comin across the domestic v import posts...Cars are such a big thing for their owners (well most anyway), and rightfully so. I love my cars, and I own both a domestic and 'import.' Both, however, are forced induction. I have a 1988 Ford Thunderbird TurboCoupe, with a 2.3L Turbo (Garret T3 @ 15psi) that produces 190hp stock and 230 ft/lbs torque...I estimate it to be around 200-210 with my minor mods. I love that car..it's not particularly light, but it still manages to raost its share of imports and v6 camaros and firebirds. My other car is a 1985 SAAB (Saab mind you!) 16v turbo. The stock dohc 16v is also boosted by a Garret T3 @ 12 psi of boost and makes 160hp / 180 ft lbs of torque. I've been spending the last few months not only reconditioning, but upgrading numerous systems on the car. With a $1000 budget the car has been dynoed at 210 rear wheel hp..i can post the sheets later if any1 wants. By the way it has 217k on it. I've never run it...although I'm anxious to. My point is that I love driving both of these cars. Yes, the T-Bird is nearly 1000 lbs heavier, but the feel of that "big" 4cyl hittin nearly 15psi is like nothing the saab can do, and when the cars were new, the t-bird cost only $2k more than the saab. I would trust the saab to last much longer than the tbird. Therefore, forced induction is a good idea for any type of car, provided taht you maintain it well and don't go thrashing it around every weekend...also, it doesnt really matter when it comes right down to it whether your car has a big ol' made in the USA stamp on the block or some crazy japanese (or swedish!) lettering on the back window. If you love your car, you love your car. Arguing about it is fun, but ya gotta respect the other guy no matter what.
     
  23. ok people, quick facts, most people like to buy their own countrys produce. check how many people from asia are buying american cars and dont bring up reliability, looks you can bring up. and see how many americans buy asian cars. true americans buy jap cars more than the other way around. but still people like to support their own country more, its only natural and right. As saying american cars don't have that much tech in america they didn't but look at ford of europe and they are bringing out most of the high tech engine( 130hp out of 2L deisel) and their new 2 and 1.1L gas engines. we all now that europe is the most competitive market there is because both asia and america have regulations that constricts lots of cars from each nations. why do you think honda with 1.3percent(or so) market share and still losing money and ford with 7.8percent market share and gaining market share in europe. ford has the technology they just never had to use it in u.s. but now with more competition coming out by 2005 ford is giving out 22 new or refreshed model. the reason i am using ford because i know the facts about the company.
    why is american companys suddenly losing money because they were sleeping, and didn't count on the imports beeing so strong and in some ways better. so true imports are stronger contenders in areas but america is catching up again.
    final point mazda is one of my favorite companys after mercedes and ford. and my next car is mazda mx-6. so i am not a hater since i am canadian.
     
  24. its sickening to see that people are so damned close-minded!! Why can't more than just a handfull of people apreciated performance and speed for performance and speeds sake?! why does it need to become a domestic/import war every fricking time. . . instead of being mature and rational this has turned into a 75 post battle between people that are obviously not even listening to one another!!!! no matter what you say. . . hp per liter means almost nothing whatsoever. . . .most naturally aspirated cars that can claim great hp/liter figures suffer from such low torque levels that it loses some of the fun when you hear the engine whinning from abuse. . . on the other end of the spectrum the big heavy high displacers from the west have plenty of torque, but they lack refinement in suspension and technology levels are certainly eclipsed by the east and the old country. . . theres good and bad in all cars. . . nothings perfect. . . maybe the wrx is close. . but i will save that for the wrx forum. . . well i think i have made my point. . . <!-- Signature -->
     
  25. hold up biznatch!(toonderic or whatever your name is),the Prelude is a helluva alot faster than that (were did you get your numbers?) the lude has a 15 sec. quarter mile,dang ,quit bashing a car that you no nothing about!!!
     

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